Ravenholdt Manor and visitors

Hm. I have mixed emotions about this thing as well. Trying to call a place 'home' is one thing. Trying to 'own' it and keep other people out, unless through planned RP, is rather difficult to play. We suffered the same before.. and I always deplored the "get out of here" approach.

1.
The secrecy is indeed a tricky thing. OOCly it's as public as the Square. ICly it's difficult to decide for another player what they know. Also.. I don't think it's entirely viable to consider it a black spot in everyone's mind. Just think about it. If you consider the place guarded and not permitting anyone to pass, then either you set those people free... enough for them to spread rumors. Or you killed them.. which will spread rumors. Nobody returning from a mountain path tends to get noticed.

This doesn't imply that people can point at the manor's location blindly on google-maps, but a presence of this magnitude might struggle to remain unnoticed. Rumors such as "Nobody ever returned from path X, take the long side around the mountains if you care to live" are hard to stop... And could be considered common knowledge in taverns along trade routes. Even more, I can imagine such rumors, perhaps talk of witchcraft and weird things living there, to be encouraged by your organization for they are bound to scare off most people.

So... To make a "positive" approach to point 1, I would simply list rumors and tales that may be heard along traderoutes towards your region. Tales and rumors that might keep people out... or attract the brave and the fools

2. 4. 5.
Some guarding, I think, is acceptable. Unfortunately, one must remain open minded to people who didn't know OOCly. If they don't know OOCly, then it's difficult to enforce this. People will wander by and see NPC's, not immediately making the link between the NPC and the IC significance. Unfortunately, many RP'ers do this (who doesn't?).

So I imagine strolling by, picking some herbs OOCly, forgetting to turn on my FlagRSP on the load screen so I have no flag declaring I'm OOC, and suddenly I'm surrounded by RHS guards. Hm. There goes an arm and a leg.
Or we just happen to be busy with another event and want to go from point A to B... accidentally crossing your territory. You holding us up, while valid in this respect, might cost us our event.

What you're basically asking of us, is an immense discipline... Not just "some" awareness. To incorporate this fully, this may impact us in every event or RP that comes even near your region. We may be forced down a longer path across mountains. We may venture into know hostile lands to avoid the "unknown dangers of the mountains".

To keep this in mind in everything we do... Ahh, that's not just a favor but a real effort. Not that I mind. We created a SW map to help us with such things. Perhaps we can do such a thing for your region as well?

3.
I can only agree with the point Amy made, but I would petition to prevent metagaming. I'd like to take it a step further, even: I'd like to encourage people to give their characters a blind spot as far as this is concerned. All too often, people make their characters as intelligent as themselves and as knowledgeable. Sadly, I'm no exception to this... and I find myself activelu "dumbing" down my characters to fix some things.
Being able to put together clue 1 and 2 to deduce a man's secret identity may very well be something you'd never be able to do, had you not had a guild or nametag to work with.

I try to imagine a new kid arriving on my company's flex desk floor (where half the group of work people changes every day). He's sitting a few rows of desks behind me. By the end of the day, his name will have been called 10 times and yet.. as I bump into him on my way out, I may not even recognize his face and I certainly wouldn't remember his name. Simply because I heard it, doesn't mean I was listening.
Now if that kid was walking about with a tag "the uber secret dude", and everything ever said to him would be as visible on my computer screen as my own work.. then on the way out I could probably address him by name and ask him detailed questions about his work that day.

So yeah.. I think it's fine to encourage people to "keep in mind to be a little blind". Even in "Dune", people already know in chapter 3 who the traitor will be. Yet more than halfway in the book you still have characters going "*gasp* It was him/her?!".
This shouldn't excuse the RHS or anyone with a secret identity to soften on their discipline to keep their identity a secret, however.

I always seen ravenholdt manor as a general sanctuary for assassins and the likes, even had my Belf assassin stay there a few times after jobs.

Is this a wrong perception?

Celi: Ravenholdt, the Manor and the faction, I've always seen a place for rogues and assassins. For training in nefarious ways, and for recognising and nurturing true talent. That means it is a guild of sorts, anyway.

I do RP a rogue who occasionally wanders to the Manor or it's environs. I wouldn't mind drop-in RP from time to time maybe too. But I would not accept anyone's RP as forced to be mine because they now lay claim to X or Y.

Any rogue (or other such RP character concept) who has IC gone through the quests there would be seen to be of high standing (or some decent standing) with the faction. They'd be welcomed by the group as it exists in game. I wouldn't see any way round that, and I don't see "why" someone "would have to" RP with others there because they had taken up "sole residence" (though of course more (good) RP is a positive thing, not negative).

Ownership is problematic. Use is a different thing. No one can or should "solely own" in my mind. Everyone can and should be encouraged to use space positively - together where possible - and certainly with respect for others (who might not even be here but still RP, remember).

But stamping feet and snarling (first) posts aren't helpful.

JP and Amaryl sum up the gist of my further feelings.

As an aside, I'm sure some of the quests even suggest that the faction based at the Ravenholdt Manor is The Assassin's League or something similar (though the reputation is for Ravenholdt not the League (like Orgrimmar is to Orcs I guess?)).

It might be worth pointing out that 4.3 will bring (possibly) changes to Ravenholdt.

The Fangs of the Father dagger questline suggests that the Prince Wrathion is there. Whether he is working with the Ravenholdt faction I don't know. Certainly the egg you're sent to find is being held there (and egg that turns out to be a dragon)... what this means IC I dunno. Game lore would be changed, there might be more indication as to what or who knows about the Manor etc etc.

This might mean lots more (random) people at the Manor. It might means changes to the area/phasing/NPCs. Just an FYI.

I'd just like to point out my post wasn't in spite of the guild because of recent "drama" it's an opinion i've had since i heard about RHS using the manor.

grufftoof wrote:Ownership is problematic. Use is a different thing. No one can or should "solely own" in my mind. Everyone can and should be encouraged to use space positively - together where possible - and certainly with respect for others (who might not even be here but still RP, remember).

Nailed it.

I really don't think it's fair that you don't allow other rp'ers to use the location and even though I sort of agree with Itsy you're still free to rp whatever you want :p

All this talk about the nature of rightful ownership and what not sort of seems off the mark to me. All I read in the original post was "Would people please stop metagaming, they're disturbing our roleplay", a sentiment I can only sympathize with.

Sharyssa/Adenah wrote:As of late we have been seeing a lot of random visitors at the manor with impossible excusesfor their entry.

It comes down to this, doesn't it? If you're going to show up at RHS, you should have a good reason to do so and not have it come across as metagamey. The secrecy of this place is its greatest allure after all. That's what (ironicly) attracts people there in the first place. So yeah, please be considerate and always have a good excuse ready. If you have one then all this fancy schmancy talk about magical wards and stuff is unneccisary. Am I wrong?

If you're going to show up at RHS

The problem in how I read this, and how it comes across as part of the whole ownership thing, is that it isn't people "showing up at RHS". It's people showing up at Ravenholdt Manor. An important difference, but one of note.

RM seems to be (from the earlier posts) de facto RHS territory, full stop. The original posts (to me and others it seems) came across as saying this was ours, we have the right to evict (as we see fit), RP will be this way and "that's it". But RM is an existing quest hub. An existing area of people's interest. And a place that others might and do have interest in.

I'm certainly not in this to shaft RHS. I don't know you from Adam. I just think trying to force something on others, and own something fullstop is something we don't need anywhere.

More play, less problems.

Additional: I can understand completely the want to discourage meta-gaming. But I don't get the need to own. Never have, really. Hence my post.

Thelos wrote:It comes down to this, doesn't it? If you're going to show up at RHS, you should have a good reason to do so and not have it come across as metagamey. The secrecy of this place is its greatest allure after all. That's what (ironicly) attracts people there in the first place. So yeah, please be considerate and always have a good excuse ready. If you have one then all this fancy schmancy talk about magical wards and stuff is unneccisary. Am I wrong?

Considering that most rogues are aware of the location of the Manor...no, there needs to be no ground breaking, world changing excuse to visit it. Not saying that the reasons for the visit should be accepted even when they're obviously crap, but I don't see why one would have to come up with an extraordinary reason as long as they're related to anything remotely rogue-ish.

Also, people seem to be forgetting the OOC motivation for being somewhere ICly. This goes for many other cases as well. DKs for example don't really belong in cities unless they have actual matters to attend to in said city, yet they are all over the place. Problem is, if people were to stick to strictly IC reasons/motivations, there'd barely be any RP to be had since many classes/personalities of characters would demand a certain isolation and thus absence of interaction with others.

Occupying a building, that isn't only lore established but also a questing location, and demanding everyone who nears it to be prepared to get either ignored or bitchslapped (that's how it comes across anyway) is a little off. Sure, you can use the place, like Gruff said. But claiming to own it? Furthermore, placing rules for everyone else to follow after taking the ownership for granted will only get you on people's bad side.

It's not always what you're trying to say but how you say it as well. The first post does have a certain tone of command, regardless of whether that's intentional or not, in addition to certain RHS members having that same tone in other threads/topics. I think that's what ruffles people's feathers the most.

1) I think this is common sense and it's more than reasonable to remind us of that.

2) I'd rephrase that to say, "They'll challenge you on sight unless wearing our tabard or your character is a well known face at Ravenholdt Manor."

Equally if RPers obey this common sense request the -lore-, not you, asks of them. Then you should follow the same common sense and not challenge those who make it past the sentries. Afterall, if they're inside they must have business there.

3) This is a ridiculous claim. RPers are by their very nature terrible at keeping the 'interesting' parts of their character secret. My experiances with the old Ravenholdt Sanctuary and indeed SI:7 have confirmed this. People blab, infiltration is ludicriously easy because guilds are so desperate to recruit they don't properly vet applicants IC, and don't take precautions before revealing sensetive information to them.

However, you can ask people not to meta-game. Something I think we ask of all our fellow RPers at one time or another.

4) I think this is a moot point. If they've got to the door Ravenholdt has noticed them and they have an IC right to be there. This is an unnessecary layer of OOC 'faff'.

5) Coming from 'criminals' this is infuriatingly one sided. Ravenholdt Sanctuary was notorious (I won't pass judgement as I'm biased in Ravenholdt's favour) for just such ninja escapes when brushing with the law and given you've stated previously that it is -impossible- for anyone to recognise you if you're not wearing the tabard...Well, perhaps you should rethink one or the other 'demand'.


On a more general point of ownership. There are ways to run a tavern without owning it. There dare ways to use Ravenholdt Manor without imposing yourself as it's Lord and Master.

If you want to use a tavern, have your members apply for jobs under the NPC management. That way multiple characters, guilded or unguilded, can all work there in mutual harmony.

If you want to use a location, either have it 'represent' somewhere else - as the Seal did with the Estate in Eastvale. Or as is more pertinant to your use of Ravenholdt Manor, assert that you have permission of the actual owner to be there - in common with all other thieves and assassins of sufficient skill and ability.

None of the above requires IC 'ownership', but allows you IC use of the area which is what actually matters.

I think it's fair to say Ravenholdt as a guild have come under a large amount of attack on here, however I also think it's fair to say this is due to an atrocious attitude which has been shown by various members.

To conclude I believe a fundamental rethink of whether or not people actually require IC ownership of an area in order to use it is hey require. Followed by a simplification and rewording - particularly in tone- of your 'five rules'.

grufftoof wrote:

If you're going to show up at RHS

The problem in how I read this, and how it comes across as part of the whole ownership thing, is that it isn't people "showing up at RHS". It's people showing up at Ravenholdt Manor. An important difference, but one of note.

Apoligies, I shoulv hade said Ravenhold Manor, not RHS. In my ignorance I thought the latter was an abbrevation of the former which, now that I think of it, was completely stupid. Even if there wasn't a guild that laid ownership to this place, one should still be expected to there for a good reason, no? I expect travelers to tavel to Auchindoun to have a damn good reason to do so, though there isn't exactly any player claiming ownership of it. It has a function in the game, though, ans do has Ravenholdt Manor, completely independant of any players. My comments were about the location purely, disconnected from any one player or guild.

Mandui wrote:Considering that most rogues are aware of the location of the Manor...no, there needs to be no ground breaking, world changing excuse to visit it. Not saying that the reasons for the visit should be accepted even when they're obviously crap, but I don't see why one would have to come up with an extraordinary reason as long as they're related to anything remotely rogue-ish.

Being a rogue is enough of a justification. Anyone who would argue otherwise is just being silly. I didn't say it had to be an extraordinary reason. Just a reason.

Mandui wrote:
Also, people seem to be forgetting the OOC motivation for being somewhere ICly. This goes for many other cases as well. DKs for example don't really belong in cities unless they have actual matters to attend to in said city, yet they are all over the place. Problem is, if people were to stick to strictly IC reasons/motivations, there'd barely be any RP to be had since many classes/personalities of characters would demand a certain isolation and thus absence of interaction with others.

You may be motivated to go somewhere by OOC reasons, but that can never be the justifcation or the reason your character is there. Keep OOC and IC strictly seperated. That's what I chiefly mean by saying that I thought this thread was about wanting to discourage metagaming. If you want to roleplay your Death Knight in Stormwind that's totally fine and its not exactly difficult to think of an IC reason to do so; and a good roleplayer always has a good IC reason to do what he does with character. If he does not, he is metagaming.

Mandui wrote:

Occupying a building, that isn't only lore established but also a questing location, and demanding everyone who nears it to be prepared to get either ignored or bitchslapped (that's how it comes across anyway) is a little off. Sure, you can use the place, like Gruff said. But claiming to own it? Furthermore, placing rules for everyone else to follow after taking the ownership for granted will only get you on people's bad side.

The thing is your character would have needed a reason to be a manor even if there was no Guild that was "occupying" it. To me asking people to have a good justication to be at a secretive rogue hideout is just like asking Death Knight to justify their presence in lets say, a Cathedral. That is to say; completely reasonable.

So in short:

Your character should have reason to be at locations. Always. At any time. This doens't have to be super eleborate or complicated, but you should be able to justify your presence somewhere when called out on it IC. That's not an unreasonable thing to ask, I think.

As for the whole "Occupying" debate I am not getting into that, I feel like we already have a thread for that.

Thelos wrote:Your character should have reason to be at locations. Always. At any time. This doens't have to be super eleborate or complicated, but you should be able to justify your presence somewhere when called out on it IC. That's not an unreasonable thing to ask, I think.

Aye, we agree in essential. The issue is however that others may not (want to) acknowledge your justification, even if you have an absolutely (from your own perspective) reasonable argument as to why you're currently there. It might sound farfetched but I've seen it happen way too often. Most of the times it's either side not wanting to give in sadly, merely to prove a point or simply come out of it on top, even if they do manage to see the point of the opposing one.

As for strictly separating IC and OOC when it specifically comes down to being present at a location ICly...like I said, that's almost impossible in some cases. Certain people would barely ever get the chance to RP due to the nature of their characters' personality/occupation/lifestyle/belief. It's alright to slightly stretch the rules in regards to this for the sake of RP by finding more or less rational IC reasons to visit the one or the other location.

I just hope RHS recognises the presence of guards in locations other than the Manor then... because none of you lot had them in mind when you would attack the Abbey with 10+ people every other day during the 'Chapter vs. RHS' war.

ICly a Chapter witch-hunter found out about the location of the Manor through several months of investigative rp anyway... so it isn't that secret.

Forsetí wrote:Unlike the Council?
They RP as having effective control of Stormwind and its policies.
I fail to see the disticntion here.

You fail indeed. Christ, stop being such a clueless nub, atleast familiarize yourself with the topic before opening your mouth, because right now,
you (And RHS for that matter) sure are making proper unicornhats out of yourselves (Morty, do the colouring on this one please?).

Raelan/Relithien wrote:You fail indeed. Christ, stop being such a clueless nub, atleast familiarize yourself with the topic before opening your mouth, because right now,
you (And RHS for that matter) sure are making proper unicornhats out of yourselves (Morty, do the colouring on this one please?).

A personal attack on a whole guild and you want a Mod to back you up? Very brave of you.. quite arrogant too.

That's how Raelan functions and he just wants a shiny text

If that's to be considered a personal attack to a whole guild, you can find a personal attack towards the entire realm on the first page then.

Fact remains, any of the said organisations on page 1 clearly define themselves as -A PART- of said instance, any guard guild does not represent the entire Guard-system, Council does not represent the entire governement of Stormwind, Light guilds do not claim monopoly on Light-orders, and SI:7 does not say that you have to be with us to RP an SI member, The Nethergarde Keep thingie from HoN and other guilds didn't claim they suddenly ruled the Keep either.

And not a single one of those actually take an established concept, twist it entirely, claim full authority over it, and then go "We merely made a few little changes".

But hey, if you back that kind of thing, go ahead, IDGAF.

Also, whats wrong with unicorns? I'm just asking how to do it nicely coloured

Thelos wrote:
All this talk about the nature of rightful ownership and what not sort of seems off the mark to me. All I read in the original post was "Would people please stop metagaming, they're disturbing our roleplay", a sentiment I can only sympathize with.

Sharyssa/Adenah wrote:As of late we have been seeing a lot of random visitors at the manor with impossible excusesfor their entry.

It comes down to this, doesn't it? If you're going to show up at RHS, you should have a good reason to do so and not have it come across as metagamey. The secrecy of this place is its greatest allure after all. That's what (ironicly) attracts people there in the first place. So yeah, please be considerate and always have a good excuse ready. If you have one then all this fancy schmancy talk about magical wards and stuff is unneccisary. Am I wrong?

This is exactly what the topic was created for, on the matter of metagaming that was mentioned it was due to someone walking up to us while in uniform/masked/tabards saying we are the owners of the Blue Recluse. While in the blue recluse we are all dressed as civilians. Meaning putting links down on our faces without the usual RHS attire and metagaming due to the guildtag.
Of course we're aware that people will recognise our tabards or uniforms, or that people in time have gathered knowledge about where we locate ourselves.
Deffinatly don't get me wrong, if you come up to the Manor or want to do so, please do. It gives us rp afterall aswel as yourself. All we'd like to be done is some aspects to be kept in mind and it not purely being based on OOC knowlegde. I had my own characters show up there with various reasons, one knowing the location due to previous rp in KoS and one merely sniffing the area out and being caught by a patrol and because of that still not knowing the entrance to the manor.

And for those that have been there and don't stand on a good footing with the guild, and not get killed due to being players: RHS erases memories of the manor to keep the location, and therefor rumours silenced. If we wish to try and keep the area as less visited as possible (IC motivation of course) we act accordingly.
Do keep in mind that every point given at the initiate post is due to cockups that happened over the last few weeks which we had to deal with, saying you "blessed" the guards is not going to give you entry.
And I cannot stress the matter that we just want some common sense if you come up there and not some far-fetched nonsense excuses for it. We obviously know that people will come and find us, attack, forge alliances, infiltrate and all the like. We are in no way trying to say that anybody has to just stay away and cannot come to the manor, nor rp there.

I also like to add, which I forgot, that the magical ward is extremely flawed aswel. It only triggers upon full physical by-passing. Blinking inside or any other means that are commonly possible so you do not just walk past it would not have it "go off".
Nor will RHS members magically pop up when they are in SW as the trinket grants the warning, however offline members and guards remain. However the latter are not wearing the trinket so the matter is perhaps even further flawed with that. Perhaps it's just best to keep into consideration there are guards reacting at the frontcave, be it for RHS or the initial Ravenholdt, they would not be there for lolz and just let everybody pass afterall.

grufftoof wrote:
As an aside, I'm sure some of the quests even suggest that the faction based at the Ravenholdt Manor is The Assassin's League or something similar (though the reputation is for Ravenholdt not the League (like Orgrimmar is to Orcs I guess?)).

That's very correct. The faction -is- named The Assassin's League, nothing else. The Manor is Ravenholdt, and like we gain reputation with Orgrimmar, Darnassus etc, we gain reputation with Ravenholdt. (As you said.)
The NPC's even have a "The Assassin's League" guildtag beneath their names.

Sharyssa/Adenah wrote:

This is exactly what the topic was created for, on the matter of metagaming that was mentioned it was due to someone walking up to us while in uniform/masked/tabards saying we are the owners of the Blue Recluse. While in the blue recluse we are all dressed as civilians. Meaning putting links down on our faces without the usual RHS attire and metagaming due to the guildtag.

Now, I understand that Meta-gaming against you was part of your post. And its an annoying and unavoidable part of the game. And I believe everyone on this forum does their best to prevent meta-gaming as much as possible, but a little less animosity and annoyance in the writing would do your guilds' image better justice.

However what's mostly ruffling feathers is the point about the fact that people are RPing in the Ravenholdt Manor without your express consent, and the tone in which you do so. That might not have been the message that you wanted to tell, but its the one that gets across.

Sharyssa/Adenah wrote:As of late we have been seeing a lot of random visitors at the manor with impossible excuses for their entry.

This isn't a meta-gaming point, this is a point about access to the Ravenholdt manor, which is a property argument.

1. The location of the Manor is first and foremost secret, and held as such unless there is a valid, and hopefully -very- good reason to know about it.

This isn't a meta-gaming argument, this is first and foremost a Property argument.

2. The entrance cave is -guarded- it may just be NPC's but act accordingly and atleast have the decency to emote in the general chat the guards are alerted. They shall capture you on sight unless wearing our tabard.

This isn't a meta-gaming argument, this is a property argument. We don't know the Ravenholdt Sanctuary is based in the Ravenhold Manor, heck most of us don't even know the Sanctuary. but we know the Manor.

3. Any links to the guildtag of spotted people IC in SW without our uniform or tabard is invalid. It is not known who we are when we walk there nor is it known that the Blue Recluse if officially owned by Ravenholdt Sanctuary.

This is a meta-gaming argument and thank you for the clarification in your latest post that I Snipped.

4. After all these things, if you miraculously manage to get upon our grounds; The door at the entrance of the Manor has a magicall ward, alarming every single member with a trinket that someone has trespassed. Have the common sense to let us know, if you have a valid reason of course. The same ward goes for the entrance at the balcony.

This isn't a meta-gaming argument, but an argument based on property access. Especially with the Dues Ex spell attached in which you Order RPers OOcly to contact you, simply for being on the premises. (which ironically is Meta-gaming in my book)

5. Also keep in mind ,if you are that desperate and curious about us, that if we get our hands on you due to trespassing or getting close, that we will not shy back to harm your character. Sudden ninja escapes because you are unwilling to accept the results of your acts are not welcomed.

This is mostly a Meta-gaming argument granted, and I hope you guys keep to it aswell, but the bolded part again is due to property and "ownership matters.


So yes, If you feel your Thread has been misinterpreted, it isn't because of our reading comprehension. In any case good luck with this the more RP the better!

Hmm. Forgive me if this comes across as a negative, but... seeing the replies posted and how these points are defended by the RHS, I get the impression these are more measures to counter fucktard behavior you have been harassed with.

While I sympathise with the victims of that, I do not think that's a good basis to build "points" which are short of rules for the community. They feel more like odd constructions that serve as a defense mechanism against idiots.

I don't doubt the need of some protection against that, but the way the pointers are formed doesn't invite or promote RP, and as such I doubt they will yield much constructive interaction other than isolating RHS in the name of secrecy.

Is there no other way to accomplish this in a more.. productive.. form?

I do apologize for the way things have perhaps been phrased, it meant nothing more then wanting some awareness due to complete random and non-logical rp on all the points mentioned during the last weeks.
The way I've explained things have probably been fuelled due to my own mood and aggrovation at the point I wrote them and come across more pissy and demanding then I actually intended.
So I do apologize for that, we're not trying to claim sole-rp in the area, only some cooperation to keep things fun after all the time RHS has been around doing exaclty what it is doing now.

"I'm here to see Lord Jorach Ravenholdt"

Problem solved.

Aint he to old for you ness?