Law Updates and Discussions.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Death Knights are inherently really really really good at fighting with weapons and are really naturally strong. They aren't defenseless at all. For warlocks, well, there's a reason they're hiding in the basement and such. They don't to be put in the spotlight. Also, most warlocks know other magic too, because they were already spellcasters before they dabbled into fel magic. Thus meaning they aren't defenseless either, even when in hiding.

This. Your character is not defenseless just because he/she can not use forbidden magic.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:It doesn't block anybody out of anything other than summoning demons and undead minions in the streets. Which is a stupid thing to do anyways.

Also this. Why would you even feel the need to summon undead minions to come to your aid within the city? Is your character really that inept using a sword?

My concerns regarding his ability to defend himself as a UH DK may be moot, however in regards to ghouls, let me pose a theoretical situation, two actually.

Horde attack on Stormwind, Zackarus ICly defending the keep from the raid, is it legal to use an army of the dead?

Alliance mob get's it into their head they are going to chase down and lynch him in the city, heavily outnumbered and it includes combat competent people.

Can he call on an army of the dead in self defence?


And if the answer to both of those is yes, does the same apply to warlocks, and their demons?

the use of food to bribe the regiment commander to let you out of jail was a good law. Keep that one.

You cannot incorporate an OOC attack on the keep IC. Why? It easy to find out! Stand in front of the raid and try to emote anything.

Some are willing to treat each OOC attack as an IC one, however, I personally do not recommend this. That would imply several things:
- firstly, that you're always in your full armour ICly, which is rather impossible. I know, that in Ancient Rome one of the basic drill was to keep marching hundreds of miles in full armour, but one can imagine how exhausting this may be;
- secondly, that it's easy to attack a city, and let's be frank here - not only Stormwind is bigger then it is shown in game, but it has also many more defenders, regiments, armies even, that are stationed within the city walls. Not to mention it's own heroes and veterans. A group of 40 badass war veterans wouldn't break that defence, not without a siege engines;
- thirdly, these groups that attack despise RP, very often trolling or ganking or corpse running roleplayers, so, why anyone would honour them by inviting them to RP?

If such an attack happens and you are willing to stop whatever you're doing, then it's up to you. But, please, let's not pretend ICly that it is possible. The most you can do is to state, that some spies tried to infiltrate the city. I can see no other reasonable explanation.

Wanting to go sleep, so will be brief.

Add a new to Stormwind that, dark magic, the summoning of demons and undead beings are allowed to combat the Horde and other enemies of the Alliance if they attack Alliance territory or cities, but such magic is not allowed to be used against Alliance citizen.

With such a law, one who wants to react to Horde in city IC can do so and break no laws. I 'think' this is the point Zack is trying to make. I may be wrong ofc - did not double-check all the post because again, I want to go sleep, and sleep I go.

Well, in the extremely rare case of a Horde invasion within the city walls, I hardly think the guards would care if your character broke a few laws in order to help defending the city and its habitants. As long as you do not harm innocent civilian bystanders and only direct your attack towards the Horde group. ICly speaking.

And incase of an angry mob chasing you down, wanting to lynch you, there is always a way to get out of that situation without having to kill/harm them. If you, for example, summon a ghoul or two as a form of meatshield, I think you could argue your reasoning for doing so was purely in self defense with a guard IC if they happen to arrest you for it.

I turn my back on this chat for one evening and return to a nice discussion, exactly how I like it. As for lynching a Death Knight, I find the idea funny to imagine an angry mob of pitchfork, torch wielding mob trying to take on a Death Knight. And lets say they hypothetically win and tries to hang him. They will be standing there for quite a while since the undead doesn't breath.

Now as for having a warlock be attacked by an angry mob, we have to view this through a magical point of view. Warlocks are mages on steroids basically, the steroids being Fel.
That being said, it is not impossible for them to use "normal" magic, such as arcane, conjuration and what not. They can perfectly well use it in character, however the only reason they can't OOC is because they wanted a caster class that didn't feel like mages.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

They are unable to use their ability to defend them self in the city, meaning that for all intents and purposes, the only sensible, viable option is for them to hide away from people, which prevents them being part of the city community RP, because people will start trouble with you... And if you defend your self, you are screwed.

Death Knights are inherently really really really good at fighting with weapons and are really naturally strong. They aren't defenseless at all. For warlocks, well, there's a reason they're hiding in the basement and such. They don't to be put in the spotlight. Also, most warlocks know other magic too, because they were already spellcasters before they dabbled into fel magic. Thus meaning they aren't defenseless either, even when in hiding.

Link please, I'd like to see that myself.

Oh man...

Why doesn't it surprise me that this is the exact discussion we always have?

-.-

I'm now patiently waiting for round 2: The penalties and punishments need to be adjusted!

#Banfirearms #GUNSHOT #StormwindCouncil.

P.S: what happens at the ironforge senate is completely separate from what happens in stormwind - Historically they have been two separate kinds of laws. "enforced" by different entitites.

but we can have this debate about the stupid margins or not, or we can just accept that anything that should be illegal within the bounds of OOC common sense should be Illegal, and vice versa. dependant on the amount of judges and lawyers and courtroom RP that happens.

because part of the objective of these laws besides the obvious was to create a certain dynamic - that enabled courtcases where possible, which means making imperfect laws. Regardless, it doesn't fucking matter what kind of laws you decide to write down in this iteration of review - the bottom line is that the guards will deal with crimes as they see fit, and criminals will deal with crimes as they see fit, and if that doesn't fit inside the picture of bystanders fuckk them in the arse with a twelve-foot pole because it's none of their business.

Littlepip wrote:Link please, I'd like to see that myself.

Link to what exactly?

Amaryl wrote:Oh man...

Why doesn't it surprise me that this is the exact discussion we always have?

-.-

I'm now patiently waiting for round 2: The penalties and punishements need to be adjusted!

#Banfirearms #GUNSHOT #StormwindCouncil.

It seems such a discussion is needed from time to time. And discussions in general are better than ignoring each other.

When it comes to punishments I don't think there should be any new or more severe.

And I don't think many NPC guards in Stormwind using firearms. Most of them are chasing you, they may fire when you're on the flying mount. That said, there's no real need to use them. But I cannot prevent my hunters from using them. I just expect they will not aim at the head.

Amaryl wrote:but we can have this debate about the stupid margins or not, or we can just accept that anything that should be illegal within the bounds of OOC common sense should be Illegal, and vice versa. dependant on the amount of judges and lawyers and courtroom RP that happens.

This is exactly what we are trying to achieve.

Amaryl wrote:because part of the objective of these laws besides the obvious was to create a certain dynamic - that enabled courtcases where possible, which means making imperfect laws. Regardless, it doesn't fucking matter what kind of laws you decide to write down in this iteration of review - the bottom line is that the guards will deal with crimes as they see fit, and criminals will deal with crimes as they see fit, and if that doesn't fit inside the picture of bystanders fuckk them in the arse with a twelve-foot pole because it's none of their business.

There are three guilds with guard rights currently, so I can only speak for the Ninth. And what I can say is that my men will not do anything that would break the rules upon which we have all agreed and the common snese. So, we do not deal with the crimes as we see fit.

Mallucis wrote: There are three guilds with guard rights currently, so I can only speak for the Ninth. And what I can say is that my men will not do anything that would break the rules upon which we have all agreed and the common snese. So, we do not deal with the crimes as we see fit.

What if not everyone agrees? Then you're dealing with it how you see fit

This is just me being obtuse, but it serves a point. You will not get a concensus. If someone would like to be arrested for swimming in the canals, or hunting in the kings woods, or picking wild mushrooms, or opening up a new church praying to the Light and denouncing the bishops for spreading lies. Why wouldn't you arrest him? at the same time - most of the time people don't want to be arrested for any of that shit - so putting any of that into laws, is silly. Just like, thinking you can get a concensus of all roleplayer to agree to law-changes posted on a forum where only a small part of the community is active, is silly.

I mean it took weeks - literally weeks, before the Drug ban was enacted into law. but that didn't stop guards arresting drugpeddlers at the request of the drugpeddlers before it was "officially" illegal (or shouldn't have).

Yes, I know all of that. I'm not going to force anyone. Instead, I'm inviting everyone.

This is deep in humans nature to spontaneously resist everything that limits them in any way. But, when I propose something it's not because I gain anything on it, like I did with my economy/monetary proposal. I do not spend my free time, reading through various texts, because I like to be on spot, or applaud. I do that, because there are things that might be explored, settled, agreed upon. I respect all who disregard my work - liberum arbitrium.

This is also the problem in which the Council is perceived, as a bunch of elitists, VIP, metagamers, etc. It's like, those who decided to play this crucial role of being a representative did that because they could see any profit in it. Go, apply for the post, experience how costly it is to take this responsibility to meet demands of the Community having nothing in return, not even a single "Thank you." Just be warned: you won't have time for anything else.

I do not claim that you may not know that, but I would wish this way of seeing the problem of rules, that are proposed to be shared by everyone, could be at least as popular as the one that is dominant on these forums (hate, hate, and once again hate).

And yes, there will be situations, where following the Law won't be enough or that simple, as it was "nicely" described in the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thread. I dropped after my attempt to arrest the suspect, who used in game mechanics as a excuse to escape. Because I didn't know, how I can follow the plot. That's it. I just wish I didn't loose three hours and a wall of text for that. This is why playing according to the common rules matters. And this is why these rules must be set.

P.S. And casual roleplayers may never learn about these forums, obviously. But, if there is a problem, they are always addressing those, who know, meaning their officers, meaning all who have an access here and use it. And I think that's enough for all of this to work.

I would like to point out that this discussion was ment to be about reviewing the laws as they stand. Not for it to be a a chore of going through the case of ooc/ic conflicts

Before any brings it up again, I was fully ok with being arrested for carrying a soulstone after Been found bleeding to death, its an illegal item and as such it was handled correctly IMHO by laws that I should be questioned at least on the subject. Can it now be dropped as I agreed with the arrest

I agree that demonic / necromancer summoning within the city walls is going to be IC a no unless your IC acting as alliance defence against attack. You would arrested for walking with a felhunter about in city, however proving that someone used a felhunter out of eye shot is near impossible so ppl can IC use these (in truth demons are much stronger in lore so only using them out of sight is not so bad)

Azapha hit the nail on the head to be honest.

These discussions come time and time again, Honestly I don't see why people are so interested in making "everyone" and "everything" accepted, it would make World of Borecraft even more boring. I love the tension of dealing with heathens and heretics wielding chaotic and evil magics just as much as I love people challenging my characters faith and views on these matters. Keep it IC, if you want to try change laws, why not do it In Character, since after all these are in character laws, not ooc ones.

I found the link, the law is confirmed. 07:15

For now I have to agreed with a lot of people has said, parts of it anyhow. It is true that in this topic it was only meant to be discussed OOC about what laws needs to be changed and which laws are not need of change. I had no intentions of making Defias anything like Argent Dawn if that is the expression some have gotten. I love the law system as it gives the realm a certain uniqueness and organised feeling. So for now lets drop the discussion about removing all the laws, because that is pure stupidity in my eyes. like removing the stripes and stars on the american flag.


3.15 Obvious allegiance to the Scarlet Crusade
Wearing the colours or tabards of the Scarlet Crusade within the city walls or performing actions in their name is not allowed, as they are an enemy of the state. There will be -no- exceptions.
Punishment: confiscation and destruction of tabard and a warning. If encountered again, a day in jail and 5 lashes in addition to any other possible sentence.

I am assuming there is a reason for this and won't question it after getting a quick explanation. I understand it, just want to have it confirmed by someone.


3.16 Drunk and disorderly behaviour (behavior*)
Minorly (minor*) inconveniencing citizens or property of Stormwind by act of unreasonable, highly annoying or loud behaviour (behavior*), intoxicated or otherwise.
Punishment: a warning.

Man, the Dwarven District must have a lot of guards! Perhaps make it more cultural accepting at least for the Dwarven District.


3.17 Drugdealing
Trade or possession of certain drugs that are acknowledged as damaging and addicting as well as the use thereof. This list includes:
- Gnogaine (Gnocaine?*)
- Blue Heaven
- Moonshine
- Azshara Azure Cigarettes
- Moonglade Arcana
Punishment: confiscation and destruction of said drugs and a warning. On repeated offence, a day in jail or a fine of 10 silver.
I suggest looking into it if there are any more drugs that has gotten into the marked just in case. Especially in the sense of pure tobacco.


That is three more rules to perhaps have a look at, I have noticed however a main theme with breaking the law and that is almost all the fines are on 10 silver which is an insane amount of coin for farmers. Getting a fine would almost cost them their farm. I suggest having a look at them and perhaps halving some of them, except the punishment for smuggling.
Speaking of smuggling, someone should get on that, just saying. There is a lot of good money in smuggling and it can be fun to both acquire the supplies and trying to smuggle it into the city. All thought a bit hard with you being the only ones entering the city.

Littlepip wrote:I am assuming there is a reason for this and won't question it after getting a quick explanation. I understand it, just want to have it confirmed by someone.

I'm not 100% sure as they do send emissaries to Stormwind and that seems to be k, but I assume it's because they might stab you if they decide you seem like undead. Or perhaps it's to do with the actions of the Scarlet Crusade RPers you apparently used to have on Defias Brotherhood?

Littlepip wrote:Man, the Dwarven District must have a lot of guards! Perhaps make it more cultural accepting at least for the Dwarven District.

This law seems to be very open to interpretation, and most likely the people (mostly dwarves?) living in the Dwarven District would have a higher tolerance for loud drunkards - thus they won't call the guards as easily to take care of it.

Littlepip wrote:I suggest looking into it if there are any more drugs that has gotten into the marked just in case. Especially in the sense of pure tobacco.

I doubt that if a guard found someone using a drug they can't recognize that they would just take out this list, say "Oh, it's not on the list so it's k" and give the drugs back.

Littlepip wrote:the fines are on 10 silver which is an insane amount of coin for farmers

I assume the fines are supposed to be reasonable, and since there is no official lore on currency, it might just be the interpretation of whoever made this law. Suppose it could be changed, though. /shrug
_____________________

I don't know if it was you correcting those words, but all the 'corrections' seem to be wrong or just British -> Murican.
Except Gnogaine/Gnocaine.

Everyone already knew Metzen said that though, no point in discovering warm water. The same thing is really with the scarlets, if you have any logic and look up some past quests you should know they maybe aren't like that voidwalker but at this point they aren't really a revered thing, plus we "killed" them a lot of times by now. Man if we get another scarlet crusade rewamp i'm not sure what to say. (Let's not start about another scarlet guild, phew!)

Feel free to do your numbers and all that, but again not everyone goes by the same system, not gonna say to not do your little economy math if that excites people.

Amaryl wrote:the bottom line is that the guards will deal with crimes as they see fit, and criminals will deal with crimes as they see fit, and if that doesn't fit inside the picture of bystanders fuckk them in the arse with a twelve-foot pole because it's none of their business.

Just this with ooc discussion between the two groups, nothing else ever needs to be done.
Have people rping what makes sense to them and communciating reasonably and everything is fine.

The Scarlet Crusade are all but extinct at present day, the law shouldn't be removed IC but it is hardly going to serve much purpose. Their only surviving bastion is in Forsaken territory and there probably isn't much reason to consider that active.

I would like to ask about a point less likely to be possible ic pushed without some ooc imput..  the reason I ask is because it may be a way to bring some controversial issues to the council and allow for justified reason for non light oriented characters to the table

Would it be such a bad idea to bring forward a minister of infernal affairs..  My idea came from the logic that even in a world were warlocks are hated.

There are times were ic it would only be logical that someone with such a back ground would be the best adviser and most knowledged in such an area ic.

The position would be very obviously covered as a second representative of the mage tower as they are the ones who deal with such things and would second the minister of magic on roles but focus on infernal /demonic /shadow related issues

I know we have had a moment in this thread were we spoke of dark arts hate ect and I get that. But at the same point it is still accepted in the alliance that dark magic is used in war and should have people who are knowledgeable and skilled in dealing with such threats

I know this is not something that the council would go oh yeah let's get this guy to come do this, but it kinda surprises me there isn't already one there as it seems kinda like something the mage tower would have already

One final note, if so.. How would one ICly push this, one issue I do have with the council is that current state makes it very very one sided via the fact that more than half the members are paladins, kinda a moot point to progress the matter as it stands if it was through them

A final point I'd like to ask clarification on since it came up ic is AM I RIGHT in saying that for one to be sanctioned by the mage tower for dark arts it is a minister of magic issues not council one..  As the law as I have seen it somewhere suggests it is not a council matter.. I ask because loop holes in the law are there to be used..  That's why we don't have perfect laws after all for more interesting rp

Beladon wrote:Azapha hit the nail on the head to be honest.

These discussions come time and time again, Honestly I don't see why people are so interested in making "everyone" and "everything" accepted, it would make World of Borecraft even more boring. I love the tension of dealing with heathens and heretics wielding chaotic and evil magics just as much as I love people challenging my characters faith and views on these matters. Keep it IC, if you want to try change laws, why not do it In Character, since after all these are in character laws, not ooc ones.

i will point this out... as iv had some time to think on it.. there is one issue in the council which i pointed out in my last post above regarding the passing laws IC.. the people who are currently in charge are very much going to oppose many if not all law changes zack attempts on principle.. much like beladon would (which i understand why IC) lets most of azapha's opinions and suggestions fall on dead ears due to his dislike of her for what she is, and as such somethings cant really be pushed IC without some ooc acceptance of effort to make it possible for the IC attempt to happen. i dont agree to saying "this is best ooc so ill let it slide IC" but some loops that can be abused to get around this would be nice every so often

it should be an IC thing, but sometimes there needs to be OOC co-operation to allow these IC attempts have some level of meaning otherwise people just wont bother as they no it wont be possible, i mean look at who were having to speak though to get these things considered and think on how it would be possible if you was the one trying and if you could see a real option.. i think what zack was getting bothered about in truth is that currently in the light/dark thing only one side is holding all the cards right now..

perhaps this world of boredom would be less of an issue if that was not the case and maybe more interesting things would happen as them lower morals types and guilds might feel happy enoth to make plotlines that have some ability to progress. i know currently a lot of plot stuff i do is miles away from city due to this issue, which in turn means that rp is being taken away from SW which in turn makes everyone have less ability to attempt to interact with it, so what we end up with OOC is the dark stuff never been seen and the good guys are never there = no interaction between the too is possible. kinda waiting for that time were one day a paladin might find me doing something he don't agree with and getting some rp out of it that feels somewhat meaningful fun and actually feels dangerous for my toon because im pushing close to dangerous territory

Here's a Google document, that can serve as a work-in-progress for the law update:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mallucis winks to the Minister of Justice.

If the minister of justice needs help going through the laws, he knows a person who is VERY familiar with law both ooc and ic (can't promise she is not unbiased ic however wink)