Law Updates and Discussions.

Perhaps it is time to take a look at the city laws and such of your City. I'm mostly talking about Ironforge, Darnassus and Stormwind in this case since the laws was made for quite a while ago in a different time and age. I personally think its time to look them over and decide which should stay or not then have a debate about it IC.

Having laws in character is a wonderful idea, however like any other law in the world you need to have power behind the laws, reasons and such for having them in the first place. I'm not saying that all of them needs to be removed at once and updated. Rather that we should look at them closely and see if they need to be updated or not to current time.

Thanks for reading and look forwards to seeing you guys thought behind it.

I was literally just looking through the old law posts and considering starting a thread for discussion.

We have a lot of law enforcers, a lot of law breakers, and lot of just about everything in between. Definitely something worth talking about.

However, I have very little constructive input at this time of the night/morning. But I'm happy to discuss if some ideas start getting thrown around.

Let's make kidnapping legal again, then vote to see if we can make it illegal or not.

#Stormwindcouncil

I have some ideas, but I was waiting to see if the option to pursue them becomes available ICly first (Would prefer to approach it from RP)

But if not, I will add my input here OOC and my reasoning behind the changes I would propose *Nod*

Lets ban Firearms!

#GUNSHOT #StormwindCouncil #GUNSHOT

2.6 Improper use of magic
What is this, what is improper use of magic? Does that mean I can't blink around in Stormwind or create icecream for children? Does this include Elemental and the holy light, shadow and fel as well? Laws needs to be more specific then simply saying "Improper use of magic."


2.9 Use of forbidden magic
This one is like hitting my head against a brick wall, not because it doesn't make sense however because it contains shadow magic. Something that we've seen time and time again been used in public. Even by Anduin Wrynn himself as well as other priests on the battlefield. Personally I'd like shadow magic to be a more specific, as there are several types according to some of our guides. Elemental and "divine" shadow which has a world of difference. Feels like it needs to be more defined and explained and perhaps configured slightly.

3.3 Desecration of holy ground
It needs a little more explanation as to what desecrating it means, what would be punishable and not. If a undead being such as a Death Knight were to walk around would it be desecration for example?

3.6 Failure to pay taxes
What taxes?!

(More coming later, but these are the ones I feel like needing to be taken a look at.)

Regarding the magic laws mainly, seeing as magic is so vast, wouldn't it remain vague purely because of how many possibilities there are? Perhaps a guard would witness something, deem it inappropriate and have the individual taken for questioning, and then it is decided if the particular incident was reckless or something similar?

Just a thought oh how it might happen on the world of Azeroth.

I think its also key to remember that what can pass as a law in Stormwind doesn't have to be as thorough as a modern day law.

But that is all from an IC practical perspective, on the other hand its a pain to not have specifics as players optimising our immersion.

While being the Minister of Justice I tried to put a definite definition on all, or most, of the laws in order to make them clearer. This was done mostly from an IC perspective through my character, what he deemed was right or wrong.

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The problem is that not everyone wants to obey these player-made laws, nor do they have to. Sure, they can't go on a killing spree and expect nothing to come from it but the guards can not force a player to follow some specific laws that a tiny fraction of the roleplaying community made up.


Here is my interpretation of the laws you brought up. Personally I merged the Improper use of magic and Use of forbidden magic as they are almost the same.

Improper use of magic:

Desecration of holy ground:

This was however more than 2 years ago, but feel free to use some parts of the definitions if you want.

Improper Use of Magic would be creating an illusionary Deathwing to scare the shit out of everyone in the city, or other antisocial uses of magic; blowing up a barrel of fish for the lols, making someone think that their beard is on fire, throwing fireballs randomly into the air. Anything which is entirely unnecessary or antisocial.

Use of Forbidden Magic (i.e. summoning demons into the city) is very different to an improper use of magic.

Sohan wrote:This was however more than 2 years ago

For me it's still quite accurate.

Right the option to follow up on this IC was not made available, so my OOC suggestions and issues with it as it currently stands.

Utterly prevents Warlocks and Death Knights from playing a contributing role toward internal alliance protection.

We can't use our mounts, and we would kill a normal mount. This is to limiting as it prevents them from ever being part of a mounted patrol unit within the city, completely ostracising them from guard RP.

They are unable to use their ability to defend them self in the city, meaning that for all intents and purposes, the only sensible, viable option is for them to hide away from people, which prevents them being part of the city community RP, because people will start trouble with you... And if you defend your self, you are screwed.

These are the two key points that need to be looked at as they are, at present, keeping those types of characters entirely blocked from RP, and the point of this was to encourage RP, not to kill it.

Sir Zackarus Xaviour wrote:
Utterly prevents Warlocks and Death Knights from playing a contributing role toward internal alliance protection.

It doesn't. Plenty of dark magic users have been part of the Stormwind Council during the years where dark magic has been forbidden under council law. In fact, I have personally been part of council as a character that was secretly practicing forbidden magic.

We can't use our mounts, and we would kill a normal mount. This is to limiting as it prevents them from ever being part of a mounted patrol unit within the city, completely ostracising them from guard RP.

Kill a normal mount? No. Not true. That would not happen if either a DK or a warlock rode a normal mount. Also, Chris Metzen did personally confirm that the only reason you aren't hunted down for summoning undead/demon things in Stormwind is that they couldn't do that for gameplay reasons: Obviously you'd be lynched if you did that. That's the official word on the matter. "Obviously, you'd be lynched if you tried to summon undead/demon minions".

They are unable to use their ability to defend them self in the city, meaning that for all intents and purposes, the only sensible, viable option is for them to hide away from people, which prevents them being part of the city community RP, because people will start trouble with you... And if you defend your self, you are screwed.

Death Knights are inherently really really really good at fighting with weapons and are really naturally strong. They aren't defenseless at all. For warlocks, well, there's a reason they're hiding in the basement and such. They don't to be put in the spotlight. Also, most warlocks know other magic too, because they were already spellcasters before they dabbled into fel magic. Thus meaning they aren't defenseless either, even when in hiding.

These are the two key points that need to be looked at as they are, at present, keeping those types of characters entirely blocked from RP, and the point of this was to encourage RP, not to kill it.

It doesn't block anybody out of anything other than summoning demons and undead minions in the streets. Which is a stupid thing to do anyways.

Death Knights are inherently really really really good at fighting with weapons and are really naturally strong. They aren't defenseless at all. For warlocks, well, there's a reason they're hiding in the basement and such. They don't to be put in the spotlight. Also, most warlocks know other magic too, because they were already spellcasters before they dabbled into fel magic. Thus meaning they aren't defenseless either, even when in hiding.

My case and point toward this criticism is based on a recent RP plot that developed, one of the Yorians (Azapha) was shot outside the Ironforge Senate.

However the primary point of contention was her creating a Soul Stone to save her self.
When a class is no longer able to use life saving abilities to defend them self by law, that is an issue as it means essentially they can be targeted with impunity, meaning the only real realistic IC response is to avoid going out at all.

Kill a normal mount? No. Not true. That would not happen if either a DK or a warlock rode a normal mount. Also, Chris Metzen did personally confirm that the only reason you aren't hunted down for summoning undead/demon things in Stormwind is that they couldn't do that for gameplay reasons: Obviously you'd be lynched if you did that. That's the official word on the matter. "Obviously, you'd be lynched if you tried to summon undead/demon minions".

In regards to this I would point toward a Fel / Unholy aura, it has a corrupting, degenerative effect on living creatures, as such prolonged exposure is to my mind very harmful to a steed and would constitute unnecessary harm, continued exposure can easily be argued to cause sickness, insanity, and even death.

It doesn't. Plenty of dark magic users have been part of the Stormwind Council during the years where dark magic has been forbidden under council law. In fact, I have personally been part of council as a character that was secretly practicing forbidden magic.

Sorry I know I'm doing this a bit out of order but I think as I originally posted it, my internal ordering system for these points comes out a bit.. skewed, which is why I mention this one thirdly now, as it relates to the other two (Supported my arrival at this opinion)

For someone who is openly supportive of the Alliance, but is a dark magic user, the law is very much against you using your abilities in any helpful way to the alliance within the city, more over, if you tried, you can be attacked and the council would ignore it, stating it was dark magic, you deserve what ever happened to you.

Which feels to me like a very elaborate power emote to prevent those types of characters participating in any way outside of the niche of "Secretive and corruptive" agenda's

For someone who is openly supportive of the Alliance, but is a dark magic user, the law is very much against you using your abilities in any helpful way to the alliance within the city, more over, if you tried, you can be attacked and the council would ignore it, stating it was dark magic, you deserve what ever happened to you.

Assault is still assault and by the word of the council law is still illegal no matter who you're targetting. That's how it works IRL, too. If you find a criminal and commit crimes against him that doesn't make you any less of a criminal yourself.

Also, warlock abilities for example, they are of these three kinds: Destruction, i.e. rain fire and brimstone on your enemies, burn their flesh clean off their bones with the vast arsenal of hellfire at your hands. Affliction, which tears your enemy's soul apart (Soulstones do this btw which is why they're illegal) and inflicts tremendous torment on them. The third, demonology, all pertain to the summoning of/bargaining with demons and as such is the kind that even Chris Metzen said would be illegal inside the city.

It's always been like that. Warlocks (and, since WLK, death knights. Plus Demon Hunters I'm sure in Legion) have always been on a case of "Allowed to use their powers in service of the alliance. I.e. on front lines and shit."

Assault is still assault and by the word of the council law is still illegal no matter who you're targetting. That's how it works IRL, too. If you find a criminal and commit crimes against him that doesn't make you any less of a criminal yourself.

Also, warlock abilities for example, they are of these three kinds: Destruction, i.e. rain fire and brimstone on your enemies, burn their flesh clean off their bones with the vast arsenal of hellfire at your hands. Affliction, which tears your enemy's soul apart (Soulstones do this btw which is why they're illegal) and inflicts tremendous torment on them. The third, demonology, all pertain to the summoning of/bargaining with demons and as such is the kind that even Chris Metzen said would be illegal inside the city.

It's always been like that. Warlocks (and, since WLK, death knights. Plus Demon Hunters I'm sure in Legion) have always been on a case of "Allowed to use their powers in service of the alliance. I.e. on front lines and shit."

I understand the point you are making, that essentially "This is how it's always been" my argument would be that I think our community created laws should aim to allow the inclusion of as many character types as possible.

Speaking from my own perspective of a grim dark'er UH DK, going out into the city, is impossible to justify, he can't defend himself to his full abilities, and if he did... He would be the one that was punished, his attacker would be a secondary concern.

So he is effectively dead in RP unless he attends an event outside the city, I doubt I'm the only one in this boat, and it's not fun.

So you're saying that the only way your Death Knight isn't essentially "dead in RP" is if he is allowed to summon undead minions to defend himself in street brawls?

Yeah I don't respect your DK RP enough to acknowledge your point here. Death knights shouldn't be getting into street brawls lol.

So you're saying that the only way your Death Knight isn't essentially "dead in RP" is if he is allowed to summon undead minions to defend himself in street brawls?

Yeah I don't respect your DK RP enough to acknowledge your point here. Death knights shouldn't be getting into street brawls lol.

Not really the point I was making, also a gross over simplification that prompts me to become exhaustively clear on my points to avoid it happening again.

Would you travel in an area, where you knew that if you were attacked, you would be in more trouble if you defended your self, even if your life was threatened.

It's a catch 22.

That I believe these need to be looked at is not from the perspective of someone who wants to walk around starting brawls, I never eluded to that desire so I'm not sure how you came to it; My argument was that when targeted by others for an attack, they are the ones punished for using their abilities to defend them self.

Used in self defence, that is the point I wish to stress.

Warlocks and Death Knights are not liked, that is perfectly fine to me, but that also means people often look for ways to target them ICly, as we have seen from the recent string of IC Murders.

If a character can not defend it's self in a hostile environment, it has no reason to participate in it, since it would be suicidal to try.

That's my contention on that point, as for the other parts, there is mention toward the allowance of certain dark magic abilities provided the individual is sanction to use it by the mages circle, which was suggested in a post I dug through from... Damn who was it.

It's around, you lurk these forums as much as me I'm sure you've glanced it, but from that suggestion, we can build on toward a more "Equal" setting.

and I aim for equality, because that's more fun for everyone.

It's not really about "this it's how it's always been" it's about the fact that it doesn't make much sense for a DK to go full out death and decay unless there is a very good reason for it like huge dragons attacking or something that would require more a more destructive aproach. Or same with warlocks.

Honestly you don't see police using flamethrowers on criminals IRL or USA saying that they will use a nuke on terrorists in the middle of a town. Remember that some other classes can have the same spells that you can't just toss about mages, shamans, etc. Warlocks and DKs just have a lot more abilities that are just not suited for use in a densely populated city full of people that do not want "nukes" in their city for various reasons.

Like Ixi said though that doesn't, i repeat doesn't mean they can't be in the city or something or defend themselves in resonable ways against theats in a city. Yes it limits you doing a few things in the city but that's why warlocks prefer to hide their identity and DKs don't prance around too much. Doesn't stop one from being helpful still even in a city with knowledge or cunning.

It's what makes the RP not limits it honestly. It's just that if you want to show off power and sell fel hunters on a stick well people will look odd at you in a city. Let's not forget making threats people are veeeery touchy on that. It's on a battlefield that you can show off more that's just how it is. DKs and warlocks just aren't city peacekeeping material (In their darkest abilities for sure).

Even the DKs and Warlocks that did well nobody was really buddy buddy hug with them, but even with the most fanatical people they joked, grined at each other and didn't go at each other (well least not openly).

Surely i could write a whole essay here but i'm not Malucious don't have a PhD in this stuff.

But also really man, mounted patrols in the city? Why? Whose gonna pick up all that shit on the streets?! Guess you can justify undead horses don't shit real shit, but let's be honest live people aren't fond of dead skeletal horses shiting ghost poop that is really hard to remove.

EDIT: BTW no one takes the council seriously. Don't take the council as if it's the definition of the comunity.

Look at it this way: Let's say I'm a sniper in the army IRL. Now obviously, that means that I go on missions where I shoot enemies from really far away. Now, I'm walking about in my home town in Denmark one day and I see people heading towards me proclaiming that they intend to harm me. Am I allowed to fend them off with my fists so long as I do not gravely injure them? Yes. That's called self defense. You are allowed to defend yourself when faced with adversaries that wish to inflict phyiscal harm on you. That is a right you have in Denmark.

Is it self defense if I get my sniper rifle and shoot the biggest of the bunch to scare them off? Nope. That's not self defense. And neither is summoning an army of ghouls to take care of some pickpocket that tried to help themselves to my wallet.

Sir Zackarus Xaviour wrote:My case and point toward this criticism is based on a recent RP plot that developed, one of the Yorians (Azapha) was shot outside the Ironforge Senate.

However the primary point of contention was her creating a Soul Stone to save her self.
When a class is no longer able to use life saving abilities to defend them self by law, that is an issue as it means essentially they can be targeted with impunity, meaning the only real realistic IC response is to avoid going out at all.

Stop here - first, do you think it's that easy to create a soulstone in the meantime of being attacked by a sniper? Secondly, Bravagor Stormhearth/Stormbrew acted not according to the Lawbook, for which he was removed both from the Council and from Ironforge (there is one more OOC reason - the whole plot has gaps and turns which make it rather confusing).

Sir Zackarus Xaviour wrote:Speaking from my own perspective of a grim dark'er UH DK, going out into the city, is impossible to justify, he can't defend himself to his full abilities, and if he did... He would be the one that was punished, his attacker would be a secondary concern.

So he is effectively dead in RP unless he attends an event outside the city, I doubt I'm the only one in this boat, and it's not fun.

Aramal is not a paladin but is able to use some basic Light based tricks. I'm far from incorporating such abilities as Lay on Hands or Resurrection into my roleplay, because this is not how the Light works. I will repeat as a mantra this example: when Tirion Fordring was trapped in an ice block on top of the Icecrown Citadel, all he did was praying. Afterwards, he didn't use any Judgement, Exorcism, Final Verdict, etc. to defeat the Lich King. And he is consider one of the most powerful paladins alive.

My point here is, that's it's much better to rely on ones martial skills, because they do not create any dilemma. When somebody starts to "shape the Light into a mighty hammer and cast it on the enemy" - a discussion always starts. Is this character that powerful? Or is it godemoting?
What is certain is that Aramal is rather a mountain of a man, due to his profession - blacksmithing. Even if he was there naked this is enough for me to act with quite a confidence while being threaten by a thug with a knife. There are always good sides and bad sides - the thug is slimmer and can run faster/hide/stealth. A tall, bulky paladin could not sneak efficiently.

And I agree with siegmund - there is no need to ride a horse in the city, especially for guarding purposes. You cannot really gallop on the pavement and the streets are narrow, so you'd need to slow down before each of it's sharp curves.

Besides! You don't need to worry about safety - the Ninth is there to protect you ^^

siegmund wrote:EDIT: BTW no one takes the council seriously. Don't take the council as if it's the definition of the comunity.

Well, speak for yourself. I do take it seriously, because the Council represents the active part of the community.

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However, I do have one expectation towards the future Minister of Justice - to put together these threads, possibly with the help from a Moderator, so that we have a unified text:

"Stormwind City Guard Guidelines" as presented by Melnerag on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:40 pm, at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Never edited.

"City Laws, Alliance" as presented by by Cathee Piner on Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:33 pm at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Last edited by Julia on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total

"[OOC] Laws of the Kingdom of Stormwind (Open for discussion)" as presented by Sohan on Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:46 pm at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Last edited by Sohan on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:28 am; edited 36 times in total

"Stormwind City Laws" as presented by CrusaderElly on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:59 pm at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Last edited by CrusaderElly on Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:15 am; edited 4 times in total


And some to the current Minister of Defence:

"[IC] Ministry of Defense Document: Laws of War" as presented by Drustai on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:33 am at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Last edited by Drustai on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

"[IC] Ministry of Defense - Stormwind Military Ranks and Structure" as presented by by Drustai on Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:04 am at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Last edited by Drustai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:16 am; edited 5 times in total

"[IC] Ministry of Defense - Duties and Responsibilities" as presented by by Drustai on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:27 am at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Never edited.

As can be seen the mess is huge and I can't imagine a new roleplayer could twig this.

It's a lot of information... Honestly, I'm going to need a day or two to sit through all that before I can even give a proper response.

Also a Zackarus would never trust his safety to any one but him self, as the "Officials" have thus far shown them self ICly to give very little concern for the safety and well being of him and others like him. (Azapha was denied any and all aid from the council, despite the injustice of her circumstance)

The point's I mentioned originally are still my feelings on it, I want to join in, but don't feel I can justify it.

However if it's something that's only effecting my character then realistically that's my own problem and I will consider it as such and just... Play something else.

Sir Zackarus Xaviour wrote:Also a Zackarus would never trust his safety to any one but him self, as the "Officials" have thus far shown them self ICly to give very little concern for the safety and well being of him and others like him. (Azapha was denied any and all aid from the council, despite the injustice of her circumstance)

I will stress this once again - the Council is not there to deal with criminal cases, those are the organisations with guarding rights to handle most of the crimes, especially stolen properties. Aramal told this to Lord Elgus that evening and I repeat it here - I have received no report, none tried to contact me, and I'm quite often there in the command centre. And I think I've proven enough that my character is not following class stereotypes. So, please, do not speak of little concern and injustice. Aramal didn't had any soulstone when he was attacked by the same sniper.

And I think that is this attitude that made most ministers worried about Zackarus being appointed the Minister of Justice. And it has nothing to do with him being a Death Knight but him being prejudiced and mistrustful a person.

Side note: did you know that the former guarding guild, the Stormwind Regiment, was lead by a Death Knight?

We still intend to keep supporting the council, as I feel it's an important community RP asset, that said we will keep pushing for changes.

As for Zackarus's personality making him undesirable for the position, I believe otherwise, he has a prejudice against prejudice, Faith is the death of reason and he has seen that first hand in the Scarlet Crusade, and suffered the consequences for trying to set them back on a noble path.

He has every reason to view the "Faith" of the light with disdain, but that said he still respects peoples right to believe, but faith has no place in politics, nor justice, that's the position he came from and I stand by that as being an accurate portrayal of him
given his past.

As for Mall, he has indeed shown himself to be more open minded, I'll read through the laws and we will pursue changes that way through Council meetings ICly and present cases for the suggestions as that feels more... Well, more RP, right?

But like i said.. There is ALOT to go through... It will be a long, slow process.

Sir Zackarus Xaviour wrote:But like i said.. There is ALOT to go through... It will be a long, slow process.

I cannot imagine it otherwise.

Not that it clears up a lot of points, but using the IC sources in question I spotted this Zack

4.4 The Ebon treaty
Death Knights affiliated with the Ebon Blade is considered an exception from section 2.5 when it comes to practicing necromancy and shadow magic as per decree of His Royal Majesty King Varian Wrynn. Restrictions on using necromantic and shadow related abilities still apply while within the Kingdoms borders unless given clearance or if it's an act of self-defence.