Questions of the Light and Divine Shadow.

Right.. So I thought I should post this due to an individual forcing opinions about how I RP my Priest and can't keep something in character. For all you people who probably know the lore better than I, is the Light a Magic, in the same way Arcane is? I don't think it is, it's more of a Faith/Philosophy in my opinion and what I've read up. However, this Half-Orc keeps questioning it and saying I'm wrong. He has a strong reason to think that rping a Priest which can balance our Shadow and Light is impossible, though I think it's a tuff skill, though possible. But please.. Someone please say I'm right, the Light is NOT a magic!

As I did tell him before, Anduin uses both the Light and Shadow in-game. Example, when he mind controls Sully in Pandaria.

But now it's a heated debate about Elune. HE doesn't seem to think that the Elves use both Light and Shadow due to the teaching of Elune. He has that silly opinion of.. Shadow is evil and always will be.

There are multiple characters in the game that use both shadow and light. Your character is your character and him being able to use them  both is possible. The reason of why is yours to decide and if its "evil" or not is a character based view point. One person might consider it bad and another not.

Yes. Though it's hard to roleplay my character. When that other person is forcing his opinions onto you OOC. It's stressfull.

I recently had a look on things and took a new approach on the question of Light, Shadow and Priest's toolbox.

Think of Light as the all connecting thing that it is (Light is Life and Life is Light, least according to Prophet Velen). You go and heal things, show compassion, connect with the world.

Now what are Priest Shadow spells actually about. Manipulation of Mind. Instead of connecting to the world around you, you connect/affect the mind of someone. Would soothing a wounded animal so it can be freed from a trap, or soothing two humans who are in a brawl against eachother be a bad thing on itself? Yet, Mind Soothe is a Shadow Spell. Mind Read would be a similar case.

If you think Priest Shadow spells (of Mind Affecting) as another way to connect to the World around you, things are much easier to explain, won't you think?

However, when you "connect to the world" > "connect to the mind of someone" with the intent to melt it into a tramatized pulp, sear, blast and spike at it with the intent to Harm, then your connection to the world takes a darker side and things are obviously very Shadowy and quite evil.

Lennix_Doge! wrote:Yes. Though it's hard to roleplay my character. When that other person is forcing his opinions onto you OOC. It's stressfull.

Are they a guild officer? If they aren't, I'd consider it kinda micromanaging if they keep going on at you about it, if they are an officer - well, might be time to chase up sources to see if you can come to an agreement. Or see what other officerpeople are saying idk.

I think the Shadow is inherently bad to an extent (see: dark star storyline in Draenor/all the nice mind-melty stuff/ask a cdev implying using it can make you...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) but there's npcs multitasking using Light/Shadow so whatever. Idk one of the Garrison priest followers is a draenei shadow priest I think.

Personally I think of it as Skarain said as a general picture. That's pretty much the impression I got as well as I went trough a lot of things i've read.

Priests seem very well able to connect with people one way or another and influence them well whatever kind of priest they might be. And it can be via light or more spells classified under the shadowy part. In one example a priest compelled one worgen with the light to answer a question, in another he invoked a physic scream to scare away a band of Defias Brotherhood attackers. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])

Can't really say too much on juggling the two like balls one way or another you got to look at the thing at more then one angle.

Edit: Also this is a broad light (shadow) explenation, though it's been ages since i watched it [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Lennix_Doge! wrote:this Half-Orc keeps questioning it and saying I'm wrong

Of the 3(?) Half-Orcs I know of on this server, the one I'm 90% sure this is is wrong about everything. Pay it no heed, have fun.

More on topic though, there's nothing concrete about it, but Priests in the lore use both. In fact, the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow study both, following in the footsteps of based Natalie Seline

As far as I know, the use of Shadow corrupts you. Any shadow, even with the intention of doing good with it. Light purifies you. If you have used shadow, then used Light, you'd go through the painful purifying process.

At least that is what the Devs said regarding Forsaken Priests.

This is the exact quote, actually:

Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.

Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

What I understand from this, having read other lore info, is that all undead is filled with shadowcorruption. (Shadow is in all dead things) And its this shadow that reacts badly with the Light.

Wielding both shadow and Light as if it was nothing is something I would see as seriously OP.

While I know the RPG books is somewhat non-canon, it say this about shadow: "Darkness", "Negative", "Death", "Destruction", "Chaotic", "Evil", ( From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )
So I would always view Shadow as evil. It can be used in good intentions, like some warlocks use fel in good intentions, but ultimatly the source of it is bad.

Using Anduin as a example is poor, as he is Alliance Jesus who can do anything, including fullblown instant ressurections.

The Shadow is corrupting to the living because it is the essence of death, hence why the Light is damaging to the Undead. Equally, Undead have managed to wield the Light, though they are few and far between, and they are BATHED in the Shadow. It's not unfeasible at all for a living whatever to wield both, so long as it's for a reason and they are incredibly devoted to it (Balance Priest type thing)

Which means that using both would cause great pain to the person if they have wielded shadow in before hand of using Light.

I've RPed a undead using the Light on very very very rare occations, but I would honestly never RP a human wielding both like it was as easy as changing gloves. I would find it way too OP.

Honestly I find it a topic that is hard to explain since there is a lot of blanks around and a lot of things open to interpritation. Some general facts here and there but some connections lacking.

Clerics at least have been always aparently been able to affect the perception of others and that's close nuff to the priest class/priests. And you see some priests once or twice shadow classified abilities but it doesn't seem to affect them at all.

And there is a lot of talk about balance but in reality you don't see balance being a thing too much in practice moreso the the other needs the other, both are there and accept that or whatever. Yet you see "holy" priests still being "holy", you see "shadow" priests still being "shadow" and you see the Archbishop going "POWAAAH" yet he uses one then changes fully into the other.

There is a lack of explenation for some things that's just how it is.

Also this is a bit better explanation of why undead feel a lot of pain becouse of the light:

The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. The primary exception to this rule are liches, as liches bind their souls to a phylactery and then use the phylactery to generate a physical form; this process is why lich bodies look nothing like their mortal bodies, and also why you have to destroy a lich’s phylactery to truly kill them.

"If you have used shadow, then used Light, you'd go through the painful purifying process." Haven't come across this besides players saying it and i'm sceptical on it working like that.

As well as in the end undead are one thing, demons another, shadow itself isn't a simple thing it seems between warlocks and necromancy and then your more priest stuff. And whatever else there is (Narru!).

Although it was a pretty terrible expansion Archbishop Benedictus used both the light and shadow both towards an evil intention.

I honestly think if you wanted to use both, the best way to go about it, would to know shadow, and a little bit of light, or vice versa. And if their are negative effects for using shadow, make sure to adopt them, as if anything it just makes the RP more interesting,

I think having used shadow and being an undead are very different things. Especially if you are a priest balancing the two, which means you may not be using the shadow enough to be so corrupt it would hurt.

It all depends on what character you are, and how you use them, I believe.

The reason I am bringing Undead into the topic, is due to the fact they are so riddled with shadow.

Shadow is shadow, no matter the word or wrapping. 'Divine shadow' is a player term, not a lore term. It's all just shadow, and has the same effect on the wielder and victim. "Darkness", "Negative", "Death", "Destruction", "Chaotic", "Evil", as the book 'Magic and Mayham' say.

Benedictus used is as a boss mechanic, but he was old god corrupted at the same time as he kept his devotion of thinking it was right, so sure, he might have used light in the boss fight, but you don't know if that hurt him to do, since Blizzard is shit at explaining the lore, and retcon shit all along.

Point is that I would not make a char which can handle things as easy as Anduin, as he is very much a big lore char and a unique case.

There's no mention of feeling pain and as far as I can tell, Anduin and Archbishop whatshisfacecorruptednobhead didn't feel pain when he was spamming shadow and light in quick succession.

I do think that it corrupts you, but on a more personal level as opposed to being addicted


edit: Also, NElves use shadow magic gifted by Elune

Nelves do not use Shadow magic.

Only one Shadowpriestess in lore, and she is a Old God servant, not a priestess of Elune. In the books Tyrande shows obvious disgust for shadowy beings and magic, and Elune's light burns it away.

Shadowmeld. It's in the name!

Lore wise priests can use both.

Personally, I think there should be a cost to using magic, any kind of magic which directly reflects on your Roleplay. I'm not saying, that there's some physical draw back or anything like that, but that a specific form of devotion is needed to wield magic, and most certainly "divine" magic, which will inform how your character behaves in any and all situations.

And as such, Shadow is the easy way. Just like Fel is the easy way. Its much easier to just charm those two fighting in the bar than convince them to stop. Its much easier to just make someone run away than confront him, its much easier to say; Doing the right things hard, so I'm just going to wave you off.

Which makes your character have a specific set of traits in his personality. Mainly, Selfishness. But in Light's terms, a lack of tenacity, and a lack of respect. Maybe it's partly fear of doing the right, of being able to achieve what's necessary, maybe its fear in your own abilities. Maybe its fear in your own personality.

As Skarain says; it's not bad to use a charm to stop a fight. But is it Right.

And does this knowledge makes your character shy away from self-reflection and thus become pompous or arrogant or self-righteous?

The question thus isn't: Can you do this?
The question becomes: Why do you do this?

And that's a far more interesting question to RP out.

It's blending with the natural shadows around them. The darkness, not the school of magic. Any shadow-magic spells is listed under spell category shadow, while shadowmeld is counted as physical.

WC3 stated that it could only be used at night. Had it been actual shadowmagic, the time of day and the level of natural darkness would not have mattered at all. Only reason you can use it any time of day in WoW is because of game mechanics.

Amaryl wrote:Lore wise priests can use both.

Personally, I think there should be a cost to using magic, any kind of magic which directly reflects on your Roleplay. I'm not saying, that there's some physical draw back or anything like that, but that a specific form of devotion is needed to wield magic, and most certainly "divine" magic, which will inform how your character behaves in any and all situations.

And as such, Shadow is the easy way. Just like Fel is the easy way. Its much easier to just charm those two fighting in the bar than convince them to stop. Its much easier to just make someone run away than confront him, its much easier to say; Doing the right things hard, so I'm just going to wave you off.

Which makes your character have a specific set of traits in his personality. Mainly, Selfishness. But in Light's terms, a lack of tenacity, and a lack of respect. Maybe it's partly fear of doing the right, of being able to achieve what's necessary, maybe its fear in your own abilities. Maybe its fear in your own personality.

As Skarain says; it's not bad to use a charm to stop a fight. But is it Right.

And does this knowledge makes your character shy away from self-reflection and thus become pompous or arrogant or self-righteous?

The question thus isn't: Can you do this?
The question becomes: Why do you do this?

And that's a far more interesting question to RP out.

This is the only thing that needs to be said.

Idk I'm more concerned about the guy that keeps badgering the OP than the lore bits. Even if he was Wrong Forever on Shadow, it's not really appropriate? I mean sure, go 'x has to change' if you're an officer but is the guy an officer? Kind of feels like he has to back down.

Is the Light magic?

Well, since its effects can only be considered supernatural, I don't see what else it could be.

Does that mean it is "magic in the same way as Arcane?"

No. Obviously not. Priests are priests and mages are mages; if their magics were the same, why bother having two distinct classes to begin with?

The difference between these two lies in many subtle things. I have always found these differences to be very fascinating fuel for role-play and I have had lots of fun interacting with mages (and warlocks!) on my priest. Rather than having a conflict on an OOC level, perphaps what you want to do - at least, ideally - is having a discussion IC, between characters rather than players. Some of my most cherished sessions were discussing the nuances of magic and faith using Thelos, having him converse with characters like Arenfel (arcane-minded), Drustai (mixed) and Gwendelyn (faith-minded).

Here's a few of these differences put in the forms of comparisons and questions, to inspire you and maybe others.

• What is the difference between emprical knowledge, or knowledge gained trough research and experimentation, and knowledge by faith or revelation?
  
  
• What is the difference between a spell and a prayer? Is a spell a prayer in the form of an elegantly formulated request to cosmic forces, or is a prayer a spell with the pretense of divinity, or "being something more"? (This is by the way an excellent polemic strategy for the defender of Faith to use; turn the question on its head. Rather than to posit that the Light is a form of magic, why not suggest that the arcane magic of mages is a form of Faith and worship?)
  
  
• What is the relationship between wisdom and knowledge? Does one need to know a lot of things in order to be wise? Or does wisdom come from some other source, like (divine) inspiration?
  

When disagreements between players arise my preference is always to have the characters dicuss things, rather than the players. My credo was always: "If it can be turned into role-play, turn it into role-play". If the other player refuses to play along with this and insists on dragging the subject to the OOC level, then he is probably not worth your time and you are better off playing with someone else.

Speaking in mechan is rogues uses shadow base spells . And shadow magic does not necesarely makes you an evil cucumber. I believe is more about what do you use it for and why when it comes to shadow magic . there's characters in lore that uses shadow magic and are not sidea with evil .

Also I don't see Anduin in pain when he uses light or shadow . Even there's draenei noms who uses shadow for good