Lore question: divine shadow

Looked around for a bit but cannot find much on the question.

Are other mortal races taught about Divine shadow or is this meerley a forsaken exclusive ?

The concept of Divine Shadow itself is present with more than just Forsaken. The specific religion though, the Cult of Forgotten Shadow, is a Forsaken-exclusive one (or all-but exclusive). Other races do have their own shadow-oriented cults (for example, the Auchenai became one for the Draenei), but most are not nearly as large or as organized as the Cult of Forgotten Shadow is. The only other shadow cult that can (or rather, could) rival the Forgotten Shadow was the Twilight's Hammer, though the two follow slightly different ideals... Forgotten Shadow is about self-empowerment (consuming to empower self) while Twilight's Hammer focuses on nihilism (consuming to destroy everything).

Drustai pretty much summed it up in a nutshell. The whole point of the divine shadow is to one day escape your mortal coil and ascend, for Forsaken this is becoming a wraith. This is because their bodies and minds are being destroyed and the light has shunned them. I'm unsure if the auchenai draenei wished for ascendency.

Anaei/Magaskawee wrote:Drustai pretty much summed it up in a nutshell. The whole point of the divine forgotten shadow is to one day escape your mortal coil and ascend, for Forsaken this is becoming a wraith. This is because their bodies and minds are being destroyed and the light has shunned them. I'm unsure if the auchenai draenei wished for ascendency.

Fixed.

Not all divine shadow is about self-empowerment. Others just want to see everything die.

There's two major core beliefs: Eye of the storm, and part of the storm. Forgotten Shadow is the eye of the storm, believing in being the core, the center, sucking in everything so that you yourself become more powerful. The other belief is about being part of the storm, with shadow itself is the eye and you're just there to help it along and be blissfully consumed along with everything else. Twilight's Hammer was mostly this, though it had an 'eye' component too, as it likewise had ascendants. Twilight's Hammer has been expressed rather inconsistently, actually... sometimes Blizzard shows them as being full-on nihilists who want to destroy everything (see Deathwing spearing himself on Wyrmrest after destroying everything), other times as power hungry madmen who believe they will survive the storm and ascend.

As for the Auchenai, they seem to have followed the 'part of the storm' belief, though there's not enough lore to say either way. All we know is that they are obsessed with a coming apocalypse and don't seek to prevent it.

"The Auchenai accept that Outland is a dying world. Those who seek to restore it are mere fools!" - Ixamos the Corrupted


The Cult of the Damned was also an 'eye of the storm' type shadow cult, focusing on consuming life in order to be rewarded with undeath. Or in the case of already-undead members, consuming life to empower the undead state (see death knights).

Was sorta presuming that when speaking of the Forsaken's take on divine shadow it was obvious I referred to the forgotten shadow. Apologies.

I recommend being very specific when dealing with shadow stuff. It's really easy for people to get things mixed up otherwise.

I'll eh, take that on board.

Drustai wrote:While Twilight's Hammer focuses on nihilism (consuming to destroy everything).

Nihilism isnt really consuming to destroy, its more that existance holds no value or purpose therefore values and is a blank slate really. Normally it is mentioned negativly in movements such as punk, athests or twilights hammer but there is no nilihilist doctrine for world ending, infact there is no doctrine at all . Perhaps it is the lack of morals and direction of the nihilists that leads to selfish, distructive behaviour.

DB wise there is the hand of shadows, (poke Var or Bela from the DoL for more info) who are shadow freedom fighters/terrorist cult. I think they have a loose faith, not sure but they might be a good place to turn to for DB RP Shadow lore.

I get the impression in Blizz lore that in human terms the divine shadow was always in small cults with their own take on things. Be nice to see a popular shadow movement grow.

Lexgrad wrote:

Drustai wrote:While Twilight's Hammer focuses on nihilism (consuming to destroy everything).

Nihilism isnt really consuming to destroy, its more that existance holds no value or purpose therefore values and is a blank slate really. Normally it is mentioned negativly in movements such as punk, athests or twilights hammer but there is no nilihilist doctrine for world ending, infact there is no doctrine at all . Perhaps it is the lack of morals and direction of the nihilists that leads to selfish, distructive behaviour.

Indeed, the Twilight's Hammer destructive nature comes from the brainwashing of their worship of the Old Gods, their worship of the Old Gods and the influence of Deathwing is the influence making them want to kill everything. Nihilism comes from the Latin Nihil - nothing. The exact philosophical implications depends on the type of Nihilism, most popular is existential nihilism, which argues that nothing has objective meaning, purpose, or worth. There are other types of nihilism, also, which argue the same of; objective morality, our perceptions of reality, and ability to learn about the world. Though the latter two, clearly, take nihilism to a ridiculous extreme - we would not be having this conversation over the internet if we could not learn about the world such that one can create a computer.

Though here we charge into the fields of the off-topic. My point was to back up Lexgrad; nihilism, as a philosophy/world-view, has nothing to do with destruction.

When it comes to the Forsaken it's a belief that because of necromancy all Forsaken are born of the shadow and can never truly be apart of The Light again, it's not so much about being upset about it. But embracing your new path in ' life '.

Hence why it became so popular amongst the undead of Lordaeron, it's become a huge part their culture. Reminds me a lot of the Religious groups found within Vampire The Masquerade and the concept of " If I am to be a monster, then I shall be nothing. ".

Also whatever Drustai said.

I thought Deathwing was murdered by his successful (in that future) creation of Twilight Dragons when everything else was dead, especially flights?

Didn't hear anything of him pulling a Samurai death.

Faralan wrote:I thought Deathwing was murdered by his successful (in that future) creation of Twilight Dragons when everything else was dead, especially flights?

Didn't hear anything of him pulling a Samurai death.

I was under the impression once he had completed the task of wiping out life he did a sepukku thing..

Faralan wrote:I thought Deathwing was murdered by his successful (in that future) creation of Twilight Dragons when everything else was dead, especially flights?

Didn't hear anything of him pulling a Samurai death.

I never heard this, I had been under the impression that he killed himself after destroying everything else. Was it in one of the books? I haven't read them because most of the WoW novels are shit, so if that detail came up in one of them then I wouldn't know. No such mention of Twilight Dragons killing him is made in-game, however.


Also, @Lex/Skaraa... you're right, nihilism was the wrong word for it. Meaningless of life is a bit different from the active desire to return to nothing.

Isn't there a tremendous difference between the old Forsaken and newly Valkyr ressed Forsaken then?

The first bunch being citizens, people, soldiers suffering a tormented death at the hands of a plague only to be risen as slaves of the LK... And then breaking free, finding their lives and homes destroyed. It's a tale of freedom, revenge... and some pride if you wish. Abandoned by the Light which they followed in the Kingdom in their life, they fall back on the Shadow and embrace it to fight for their existence and life.

But the new bunch.. were fighters in the war against the Forsaken. They are fighters against the Shadow. They are ressed against their will. How does that turn out then?
Shadow controls all?

Being resurrected by the Val'kyr doesn't make you hate The Forsaken, not every Nub: Technical term, is in fact risen from battles between The Alliance, some are corpses found within Lordaeron, ancestors, that sort of thing. Even if someone was killed in battle and then raised, they are treated like any other Forsaken and integrated into their society and in turn The Shadow.

In fact there are very few fresh zombies who actually stand against The Forsaken, because it isn't enslavement, you get risen and can do whatever you want after that. Try doing the starting zone, incredibly enlightening!

I didn't mean to imply Valkyr ress meant Forsaken hatred. The collection of old and new corpses is a good one... Indeed, I thought about it as well till someone told me it was mostly new victims. The starter quests are somewhat enlightening but I felt they failed to convince of some points. You see the young woman/undeady and how she turns to the Shadow to fight for her own life and freedom, when she learns that the living would slay her mercilessly, regardless of who it is (her family in this case?).

I feel mixed about that story. One of my characters risks being turned soon, but he hates undeads with a burning passion. I can understand emotions to be lost during conversion, but considering the dogmatic nature of the character I can't see him side with Sylvannas. I can't imagine the leverage needed to turn him to the Forsaken side, without making it far fetched or simply insufficient.

This is a conflict you're more likely to bump into with the Valkyrs than the "first batch" of Forsaken. Hm. Maybe I'm straying too far from the Shadow topic here

Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:I didn't mean to imply Valkyr ress meant Forsaken hatred. The collection of old and new corpses is a good one... Indeed, I thought about it as well till someone told me it was mostly new victims. The starter quests are somewhat enlightening but I felt they failed to convince of some points. You see the young woman/undeady and how she turns to the Shadow to fight for her own life and freedom, when she learns that the living would slay her mercilessly, regardless of who it is (her family in this case?).

I feel mixed about that story. One of my characters risks being turned soon, but he hates undeads with a burning passion. I can understand emotions to be lost during conversion, but considering the dogmatic nature of the character I can't see him side with Sylvannas. I can't imagine the leverage needed to turn him to the Forsaken side, without making it far fetched or simply insufficient.

This is a conflict you're more likely to bump into with the Valkyrs than the "first batch" of Forsaken. Hm. Maybe I'm straying too far from the Shadow topic here

I think the case with the Scarlet Witch-Assassin that got turned, whom you mentioned, is that even though she was created to kill undead, to hate them, now she is one against her will, and those she love hates her, would kill her at any given chance.

She'll side with what she hate, for the need of survival. It might not be the most loyal committment, but she'll do it to live.

I guess your character will find itself in a similiar dilemma. It's either the Forsaken or Scourge Remenants. No one else wants you. You're alone!

Aye! But I consider it viable that he would rather die. If I remember correctly, when I started playing WoW there was a notion of subgroups among the Forsaken:
- Spread: Those who lost all sense of humanity and wanted to spread the plague to make the whole world undead, or destroy all living
- Continue: Those who felt it was an affliction that they had to bear through and search for a cured.
- Stop: Those who considered it an evil curse and felt they needed to die along with other undeads.

Over time this notion has vanished, or I simply didn't hear of it in years. Until putricide's move, Lorewise the Forsaken were portrayed as the second group in public with the first one behind the screens. Slowly the lines between the first and second are fading, with Sylvannas using Valkyrs. But I still think the third group can exist... with a very short lifespan on average, mind

The vast majority of Forsaken roleplayers tend to favor the neutral approach, where they've come to accept it as part of who they are. You get the odd vigilante, but they wouldn't stick around. Either be killed by other Forsaken: If they attempted to disrupt Lordaeron, or flee into the Argent Dawn, or even The Horde.

I'd imagine your Zombie-hatin' guy would probably do one of the two latter. However those being risen by the Val'kyr sometimes don't even recall their life, especially if they've been dead for a considerable amount of time. The general notion is that if you stand with the Forsaken, they'll look out for you, if you don't, sod off.

Vec wrote:Either be killed by other Forsaken: If they attempted to disrupt Lordaeron, or flee into the Argent Dawn, or even The Horde.

Oh yes, totally. I don't expect a undead-murdering vigilante would last long among the Forsaken.