Riders of Acherus

Dwyburn wrote:when your character has such a limited register of emotions to play on.

Doesn't help that almost everyone consider the average Death Knight a relief piñata either.
Also getting old how Death Knights are mistrusted still, in my opinion.

I mean, I get that people feel uneasy around them, but... Warlocks and Shadow priests are good to go through the metal detector.

Which is also why I feel like a band of death knights would be a good position to rp from as a Death Knight, and at the same time, avoiding the "if you look at me the wrong way" kind of attitude that seems to plague the death knight persona.

Edit: That's a lot of Death Knight in one message.

I mean, I get that people feel uneasy around them, but... Warlocks and Shadow priests are good to go through the metal detector.

Not sure where you got that idea. You just haven't been around the right atmosphere then I supose.

siegmund wrote:

I mean, I get that people feel uneasy around them, but... Warlocks and Shadow priests are good to go through the metal detector.

Not sure where you got that idea. You just haven't been around the right atmosphere then I supose.

DB has historically speaking been a good bit more zealous than official lore might implicate is the case in the wow-verse. Locks, spriests and dks have all been on the recieving end.

That has been changing lately, though. At least in the Band of the Brave and Wild Tempest, Shadow Priests, Warlocks and Death Knights are welcome if not respected if they don't behave like jackasses.

I've often seen Death Knights being neglected or treated like trash, mistrusted, harrased or even refused access somewhere.

I don't remember any names, but I specifically remember said behavior exercised by DoL and Blazing Shields member(s) HOWEVER! Before you beat me up in true interwebs fashion with cyberjabs, this is not an accusation, just mentioning specific memories to back up my claim.

I'm under the same impression to some extend Wellsworth, and I think it is often a few induviduals rather than large groups.

Howl wrote:I've often seen Death Knights being neglected or treated like trash, mistrusted, harrased or even refused access somewhere.

I don't remember any names, but I specifically remember said behavior exercised by DoL and Blazing Shields member(s) HOWEVER! Before you beat me up in true interwebs fashion with cyberjabs, this is not an accusation, just mentioning specific memories to back up my claim.

I'm under the same impression to some extend Wellsworth, and I think it is often a few induviduals rather than large groups.

Guards often are biased due to their characters' personal experiences. Comes with generally dealing 99% with the criminals among the dks etc. My own character have 3 different DKs who've sworn to kill him, for example(all having attempted at least once and quite likely to try again). Through RP he's been turned into a less openminded person. That kind of thing is not uncommon among us. Remember, guards are characters too, and some of them quite flawed.

Dwyburn wrote:

siegmund wrote:

I mean, I get that people feel uneasy around them, but... Warlocks and Shadow priests are good to go through the metal detector.

Not sure where you got that idea. You just haven't been around the right atmosphere then I supose.

DB has historically speaking been a good bit more zealous than official lore might implicate is the case in the wow-verse. Locks, spriests and dks have all been on the recieving end.

But still quite generally bad if you're being blatant in the middle of stormwind public about being either a warlock or a shadow priest they may be "used" in the military for their skills but it doesn't mean it is necessarily socially accepted amongst a society that has mages even taking a very negative view of it, even the arcane users dislike the thought of such powers. As well as this the Holy Light philosophy is engrained into the culture and society of the Alliance with many other religions as well taking a largely dim to even view of being anti destructive powers such as warlockism,the shadow(cult of forgotten shadow horde religion in relation to exclusive shadow priests) and necromancy/fel magic/demonism.

If you run around stormwind blatantly parading yourself as a Shadow Priest or a Warlock then perhaps you're doing something wrong.

I mean your Aunt Fanny isn't going to be too happy when you bring your date to your cousins wedding, some warlock dripping in dark magic and lighting his cigar with a fel flame on the end of his finger is she now.

Nor will Uncle Dick Tapper be too estatic when you bring your boyfriend Death Knight McChild be-header into the Stormwind Nursery to watch the kids.

Or how bout Brother Neals of Northshire when you bring round Shadow Priest Elga Bitzfallinoff of <The Cult of Forgotten Shadow> to take down a log book and re-sort all the holy texts.

And let's face it the necrolytes messing with demons and raising undead and the third war's necromancy and the invasion of the demons as well as the destruction of draenor and argus to daemonic influences was all just a George W Bush American conspiracy to wage Illegal wars.

Death Knights are literally, in lore, unnatural, unholy aberrations that exist solely to spread suffering and death. They go against every tenant of the light, and every aspect of druidism and shamanism. They are as close as players will ever get to being a monster, and if you honestly think that they're just unlucky guys OOC then I suggest you read up on the lore behind them. These creatures are the very definition of horror.

They are a very cool class with great lore, and they may have been forced into their situation and trying to make amends, but that does not change their nature, or the history that they are still a part of. These are the creatures that tortured innocents and had their servants create abominations from them.

If you pay close attention when you enter Naxxramas, you can hear Thaddius screaming.
That isn't Thaddius.
That's the hundreds of children, women and men that make up his body. The Death Knights were a part of the organization that did this, and amongst it's lieutenants and most feared warriors. These aren't like the forsaken - mindless fodder, the death knights were the worst nightmare of many a citizen on azeroth, the elite of the Scourge.

If you still have to question why they would be disliked or at the very least treated with suspicion by people then there's no point explaining. Defias is far less zealous towards the Death Knights than they should be in lore, do you not remember the initial reaction of the cities when your death knight enters? It would no longer be throwing fruit (Or they could, if they disliked them) but nor should people be treating them as friends, or at least not any random death knight. If you are, then your character is probably insane - After all, these creatures are programmed to have this need to spread pain and suffering. You hug them, they probably won't be thinking "awwwh :3" they'd most likely be resisting the urge to snap your neck.

Seriously, why the fuck are you questioning why Death Knights are "being neglected or treated like trash, mistrusted, harrased or even refused access somewhere."
There is no reason -not to- treat them that way. Sure, it'd be nice for them if you didn't but it'd probably be really fucking weird if your character didn't at least not trust them.
People need to remember that shadow, fel and necromancy are the very definitions of evil in WoW. They can be used for good, but like Death Knights, by nature they are evil.

Firstly some may have misunderstood my quote. I was moreso curious about the that Shadow Priests and Warlocks get free passes and DK's not so much not how oh so poor dk's are. Honestly I've seen DK's tolerated more by DoL then Warlocks least or full on shadow priests.

But of course variables are there, the few things have been said that jackasses and personal experiences are a thing and not just for DKs or magic users of... questionable means.

Rest has been really said by some above another thing is it's easy to spot a DK not so much a Warlock, well ... debatable ... from person to person again.

Truth be I've seen personally least more warlocks about in lore then DKs.

Yeah, people like Disciples and guards are understandable to like them even less than others.

It's just that the fewer of us there are, the diversity is harder to find, and makes it troublesome. Doesn't mean that the ones disliking dk's have no valid IC reason to do so.

siegmund wrote:Firstly some may have misunderstood my quote. I was moreso curious about the that Shadow Priests and Warlocks get free passes and DK's not so much not how oh so poor dk's are. Honestly I've seen DK's tolerated more by DoL then Warlocks least or full on shadow priests.

But of course variables are there, the few things have been said that jackasses and personal experiences are a thing and not just for DKs or magic users of... questionable means.

Rest has been really said by some above another thing is it's easy to spot a DK not so much a Warlock, well ... debatable ... from person to person again.

Truth be I've seen personally least more warlocks about in lore then DKs.

Well it's easier for a shadowpriest / warlock to hide and meld in with society. Death knights are quite a bit more obvious with the rotting flesh, glowing eyes, stench, lack of emotion etc. They just stand out like a sore thumb. Often when Disciples find out they have someone in their presence that dabbles in unholy magic, they quickly get a cold shoulder and quite a negative attitude thrown towards them.

As for the server being overzealous, well that depends on your perspective really. Just because you hate something/can't abide it doesn't mean your being a zealot. The only time zealot is actually mentioned is when a religious type character is making his opinion towards dark arts/unholy things known (through voice or fists). Db has had a lot of holy based guilds on the server, even some of the guard orders have roots that started in holy orders. The major realm hub for alliance is Stormwind, and Stormwind has an entire district dedicated to the Church of the Holy Light, so naturally there might be quite a lot of anti-dark art folks wandering about. Especially given the history of Stormwind and Lordaeron, it's not really unexpected if there are some zealous characters.

If you look at the definition of zealot it doesn't specifically single out religion. It can be politcal, personal or even just some guy who is unswervingly devoted to feeding the poor.

Some characters are overzealous towards unholy matters, some are not. Given enough time I'm sure those Rping Dks and dark arts users learn who will react towards them and how.

Allonia_Miral wrote:Doesn't mean that the ones disliking dk's have no valid IC reason to do so.

Sure, but after years of fighting alongside several of them, people oughta losen up imo.
Obviously though, some have been so severely traumatized that they can never look at a death knight regardless of their allegiance and feel comfortable around their presence.

Regardless! Anyone roleplaying a Death Knight should obviously be prepaired to deal with a bit of prejudice to say the least.

It's up to the player if their character "loosens up", isn't it? Some have, some haven't, some never will. That's how role-playing works.

Yep

Howl wrote:

Allonia_Miral wrote:Doesn't mean that the ones disliking dk's have no valid IC reason to do so.

Sure, but after years of fighting alongside several of them, people oughta losen up imo.
Obviously though, some have been so severely traumatized that they can never look at a death knight regardless of their allegiance and feel comfortable around their presence.

Regardless! Anyone roleplaying a Death Knight should obviously be prepaired to deal with a bit of prejudice to say the least.

I'm more than used to it by now. I don't mind the prejudice, really. I still think making the choice to main RP a DK was the best move I made in this game.

Dwyburn wrote:

Howl wrote:I've often seen Death Knights being neglected or treated like trash, mistrusted, harrased or even refused access somewhere.

I don't remember any names, but I specifically remember said behavior exercised by DoL and Blazing Shields member(s) HOWEVER! Before you beat me up in true interwebs fashion with cyberjabs, this is not an accusation, just mentioning specific memories to back up my claim.

I'm under the same impression to some extend Wellsworth, and I think it is often a few induviduals rather than large groups.

Guards often are biased due to their characters' personal experiences. Comes with generally dealing 99% with the criminals among the dks etc. My own character have 3 different DKs who've sworn to kill him, for example(all having attempted at least once and quite likely to try again). Through RP he's been turned into a less openminded person. That kind of thing is not uncommon among us. Remember, guards are characters too, and some of them quite flawed.

To be honest, you sorta earned Lavian's ire from black market skinning of worgens (Or attempted to)

Or just go Horde and not deal with all of this rabble except from the odd paladin.

I'm sure all of the Horde aren't too hyper about undead either not even their own buddies the forsaken. Well I'm sure least some remember the wrathgate. While some others enjoy drinks with one in a inn that gets blown up. Of course dat kor'kron there.

In my personal experience, you'll have a much easier time role-playing a Death Knight on the Horde. You don't get nearly as much flak on the red team for being dead, mostly due to everybody having grown used to having Forsaken shambling about.

Mind you, I'm not talking about lore or anything, just my personal experiences of interacting with other characters on my Forsaken Death Knight.

Terenus wrote:Death Knights are literally, in lore, unnatural, unholy aberrations that exist solely to spread suffering and death. They go against every tenant of the light, and every aspect of druidism and shamanism. They are as close as players will ever get to being a monster, and if you honestly think that they're just unlucky guys OOC then I suggest you read up on the lore behind them. These creatures are the very definition of horror.

They are a very cool class with great lore, and they may have been forced into their situation and trying to make amends, but that does not change their nature, or the history that they are still a part of. These are the creatures that tortured innocents and had their servants create abominations from them.

If you pay close attention when you enter Naxxramas, you can hear Thaddius screaming.
That isn't Thaddius.
That's the hundreds of children, women and men that make up his body. The Death Knights were a part of the organization that did this, and amongst it's lieutenants and most feared warriors. These aren't like the forsaken - mindless fodder, the death knights were the worst nightmare of many a citizen on azeroth, the elite of the Scourge.

If you still have to question why they would be disliked or at the very least treated with suspicion by people then there's no point explaining. Defias is far less zealous towards the Death Knights than they should be in lore, do you not remember the initial reaction of the cities when your death knight enters? It would no longer be throwing fruit (Or they could, if they disliked them) but nor should people be treating them as friends, or at least not any random death knight. If you are, then your character is probably insane - After all, these creatures are programmed to have this need to spread pain and suffering. You hug them, they probably won't be thinking "awwwh :3" they'd most likely be resisting the urge to snap your neck.

Seriously, why the fuck are you questioning why Death Knights are "being neglected or treated like trash, mistrusted, harrased or even refused access somewhere."
There is no reason -not to- treat them that way. Sure, it'd be nice for them if you didn't but it'd probably be really fucking weird if your character didn't at least not trust them.
People need to remember that shadow, fel and necromancy are the very definitions of evil in WoW. They can be used for good, but like Death Knights, by nature they are evil.

Well you can make something of that narrative for quite a few races.  Blood elves and orcs have a bad history with Fel and with mass butchering of space goats.  At great numbers deaths become stastics, but go look at the path of glory, That is what orcs did and there have to be millions of bodies there.  How often is this referenced in RP?  Murder on a scale far worse than the scourge, not to mention the scourge did not "erp" with the draenei before they killed them.

the further blind spot that annoys me is the simple mindedness that human RPers in particular seem to nicely group others up into genetic boxes, DKs are X, forsaken are Y, orcs are Z.  Yet when it comes to Humans that warlock is just a warlock, not a human warlock.  I mean honestly If you want to give any race shit about their pasts, think first about all the monster humans in wow.  Arthas, KT, Lady death whisper, The scarlets.  If you want to base races on what is a small part of their deal then what is wrong with all humans are scarlets?  Huge amounts of the SC were humans, is that enough to colour the RP of all Humans?

Finally in MoP and in Cata you see DKs in leadership positions in the Alliance, in fact Thassarian had the rank of commander or general, whatever he lead an alliance offensive.  the Lore is over WotLK, maybe RPers should be to.

Annnnd finally, year you RP with a bad DK, I have RPed with a druid who was kinda evil, Loads of Paladins who are evil and the same is prob true of any class.  It does not therefore mean I can get away with RPing as a bigot to any druid or w/e.  It does not follow, people RP as they do to DKs because they are different, because they know deep down they are more powerful then they are, because they hate the class or because they think racist gives them free RP I am grim dark points.

Annnnnnnnnnnnd really finally, a little aggro is fine, I approved of it when I RPed Lexgrad.  But if you are going to RP a racist, at least have the decency to do it knowing that it makes your char a scum bag and not get everyone around you to help you justify it.  That is the really frustrating thing, when white knights are not dirtied by their bigotry.

Ashes to Ashes Brother Knights!

I agree with you, Lex.

The genocide committed by the orcs -is- acknowledged by any half decent RPer. The whole speech by Saurfang also reflects on this. It is -all- relevant. Also, the orcs committed genocide once. The undead wiped out the whole of the northern eastern kingdoms, sending the elves to the brink of extinction, and destroying the largest centre of humanity in history with Lordaeron. What the orcs did was not on the scale of the Scourge, especially as the Draenei were never large in population to begin with. Adding to that, the monstrosities, like the Path of Glory pale in comparison to -the whole of Lordaeron-

And you go off on a tangent, most of it irrelevant before just resorting to Ad Hominem and going into a somewhat hypocritical stance of humans grouping every race as the same whilst doing that exact same thing yourself. For the record, a human warlock is a human warlock, it doesn't matter - but what their race did, or does, etc, adds to their character. And then you saying that humans have been monsters too? Yet, it was never the entire race. Only individuals or factions. And it colours the RP of paladins with the SC, and of any people in a position of power and authority with regards to Arthas. I have no idea why you think it isn't referenced.

Annnnd finally, year you RP with a bad DK, I have RPed with a druid who was kinda evil, Loads of Paladins who are evil and the same is prob true of any class. It does not therefore mean I can get away with RPing as a bigot to any druid or w/e. It does not follow, people RP as they do to DKs because they are different, because they know deep down they are more powerful then they are, because they hate the class or because they think racist gives them free RP I am grim dark points.

I'm going to assume year means here. And I never denied other classes can be evil, but death knights, by nature, are evil. This is not widely realized from what I have seen, and it is more unusual for a death knight to be good (Like Eidan), than an evil druid. Paladins can be evil, but the light, by nature, is good. Good, and bad. Yin and Yang are very common themes throughout the lore of Warcraft.

And saying my character is a racist when if you have RPed with him, you wouldn't have done it any detail, is just moronic. He dislikes DK's and undead, any paladin would. He doesn't give a shit otherwise though. Don't try and draw assumptions on a character you know sod all about.

And people do treat DK's like they're shit because they're different - they're monsters. OOC feeling doesn't come into it, it isn't any of those bullshit reasons you stated. Noone dislikes them because of some deep seated self-respect issues, why the fuck would they?

as a correction, most DKs are from the acherus and would have nothing to do with the third war on the scourge side, unless they became DKs before the acherus.

The Ebon Blade were raised 6 months before WotLK, Lordaeron was done 5 years before vanilla, so DKs as a whole mostly have nothing to do with the third war, unless they fought as living and survived.

Therefore the Orc argument holds water, all the Ebon Blade ever killed was scarlets, a few argents and citizens of the scarlet enclave, and if we are to use moralist arguments only the third of these is objectionable, argents and scarlets are combatants (tho morally, it is easy to argue that the death knights did not have free will to do evil).

Finally, as for the forsaken, they are not scourge who happen to be in lordaeron, they are victims of the scourge who mostly died for lordaeron. They are free now and live in the city they died for. Same deal, they had no free will.

Orcs took Fel and killed 90% of a whole race, felled with glee as they did it. They chose their fate, former scourge did not. Furthermore, the argument about free will is far weaker regarding fel as it does to the Lich king.

Also year should be yeah. The ooc argument is so wrong, people make good or bad RP, classes do not.

1: Never said Ebon Blade in particular. I was speaking generally - there are a fair few second generation DK's being RPed.

2: The orcs never committed genocide on the scale of the scourge, and you used it as an argument that noone reflects on that - well, they do. Pointless to carry that on.

3. Forsaken are as bad as the scourge, just weaker, victims or not, they are carrying on it's legacy.

I never made any argument about free will. Nor did I deny people make good or bad RP, but classes and races add depth to RP, that's why the lore exists.

Well if you are mind controlled then you can not really be guilty of a crime, that is my argument. Plus I would still maintain that what the draenei suffered was worse. Their genocide was terrible.