The Ordo Arcana: Instructors of Magical Practices and the Arcane Ways (new wizard's Guild)

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:The Disciples do a ton of research and keep up to date with the Church and its NPC's as closely as possible. Some of our characters may become zealous due to IC events that have caused great murder or distress (for example, the Black Hand murdering hundreds and dropping bodies) otherwise we follow the Church's beliefs as closely as possible.

Then can you agree that the Church of the Holy Light itself is not directly opposed to magic?

Adry wrote:

Burgen wrote:"A sigh. “I am aware that you spend most of your time in the north these days. Your increasingly lengthy absences were what caught my attention in the first place. Yet even you must have heard that the king’s new tax has given rise to civil unrest. Your selfish pursuit of power could incite the peasantry to revolt. Lordaeron would be engulfed in civil war.”

He hadn’t known about the tax. Antonidas must be exaggerating. Besides, true magi would focus on matters of greater substance. “I will be more discreet,” he offered, gritting his teeth.

“No amount of discretion could possibly hide a secret of this magnitude,” said Drenden.

Modera added, “You know that we have always walked a fine line in order to protect our people without becoming a danger ourselves. We dare not sacrifice our humanity--not in appearance, and certainly not in truth. At best, your methods would see us condemned as heretics.”

It was too much. “We’ve been called heretics for centuries. The church has never been fond of our methods. Such sentiments notwithstanding, we are still here.”" And the source for this lovely tidbit is the story of Kel'thuzzad in the Road to Damnation.

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Once again this does not imply that the Church of the Holy Light itself condemns magic. It simply implies that mages have been labelled as heretics, likely by extremists. With no direct reference to the Church of the Holy Light, nor to Northshire, nor to any of the organizations that are being inferred as "anti-Mage", it can't be used as evidence to back up that point.

Additionally, Modera's words are very striking. "At best, your methods would see us condemned as heretics." The way this is worded heavily implies that they are not already branded as heretics by general consensus.

No direct reference to the church really? It says their the church has never been fond of their methods, but yes the word church was never said at all i can see that now. But argue all you want against a lore story not being useable as evidence.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:I'm arguing that Arcane is corruptive and the Lighties distrust it for obvious reasons. --- Due to IC events, my Paladin hates Mages.

And that's fine and dandy - as I said recently in another thread, I think IC conflict is mostly a good thing - but you shouldn't claim that it represents the majority opinion when that seems to run contrary to what we see in the game, like arguing that the Argents are considered "heretics" when, in truth, the Alliance uses Mages and Warlocks and Death Knights freely without such opposition, while the Argent Crusade merely allies with them.

Burgen wrote:No direct reference to the church really? It says their the church has never been fond of their methods, but yes the word church was never said at all i can see that now.

Mind you, the person saying that is Kel'Thuzad himself, trying to defend his use of Necromancy in front of a gathering of Archmages. Pinch of salt, yes?

Yet Modera also points towards that direction somewhat before Kel'thuzzad even said that Sanara so i would take a pinch of salt but i would not say it is a far fetched piece of information either.

I got the impression Modera refers specifically to Necromancy - which would be consistent with everything else we know - while Kel'Thuzad tries to brush it off by claiming necromancy isn't any worse than regular arcane magic.

Actally yes, you are right about me being a bit too defensive here. No offense meant in any way with that. You are quite right about my intentions since I plan to atleast try to involve the order in Stormwind politics if it's successful, though the order doesnt really hold any sort of influence now since It's still being founded.

Far as sorounding the king, warlocks yeah in the book!

I'm not sure on Anduin and priests far as more things go sometimes it's mechanics that lists spells as X or Y, but don't possibly belong there. But shadow too, but in the end the the player doesn't see "Shadow magic - mind control" above their heads IC he just sees just like a Jedi Mind tricking him, you can also apply something similar with the light to force one to tell you something (Dark Riders comic book - Revil, priest), haven't seen any definite answers from Blizzard on it but it is know priests are good at influincing people though divine methods, maybe a answer on twitter somewhere, but Blizz never is about giving us the full scoop on things anyway. Seen a priest use fear as well in a comic, but besides purple skulls being seen to induce fear to some defias no one yelled "OMFG SHADOW" how do you know it is anyway if it is? (Dark riders comic again, portraying Physic scream ability)

Probably as said priests and whatnot most likely don't like mages to it's fullest it's their own thing i guess?

"I am led to belive you are here in search of an missing artifact."
"What business is it of yours why I am here or what I may seek?"
"It's just taht I myself am here searching for an artifact of my own. Our purposes are the same."
"No mage. Once you've traded your books of arcane for the holy texts. Once you've ended your pursuit of material knowledge for spirritual enlightenment. THEN will our purposes be the same." - Dark riders

Not said that the two parties can't be friends or like but deem their ways still kind of not what they would want them to do, not that sure on what the church as a whole thinks. But as i've seen that link well something is up at least! But probably not in the overall full view of everyone. People work together in the end, are childhood friends and whatever else stuff.

Necromancy isn't fel D'ohoh silly lilly.

Shadow is mainly considered bad becouse it's related to necromancy. Inheritly not evil but lots of evil dudes use it more just so it is.

Hell is a thing in Wow least a word people use, deal with it. If it was retconned i'd not have Hellfire on my spell list. Or other things for that matter.

Far as IC things go if a mage blinks almost into a paladins face and not in a heat of battle but just becouse he can, someone isn't going to like it that that guy almost phased into you.

Or someone waving a soul shard in your face perhaps? Thought that's not mage related.

As other things go too people gain bad experiences so it is.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:for example, the Black Hand murdering hundreds and dropping bodies

Billions.

It's good to see magery around, particularly in a guild format. It's been long-missing from Defias Brotherhood.

In regards to the lore bickering, might I suggest that a. Blizzlore is crap, and b. split it to a new thread, perhaps? I'd like to take part in that discussion but this isn't really the best place imo.

Was it really necessary to explode this discussion in the poor guy's registry thread?
It would be nice if we could stop trying to get the entire server on board on one consensus, but instead accept the the Disciples of Light are going to condemn magic users, and other guilds might not. Isn't one of the cool things about a guild that you can create a group-bubble with it's own views and opinions that doesn't necessarily have to co-inside with blizzard's factions? That's how I see guilds - Private factions unaffiliated with blizzards factions.

To add something constructive, for Eldiros:
Here are three community created resources on magic that I feel are worth giving a read. You don't have to take any of them as in-character truth, especially the last two, but if you're interested in magic role-play, these are the threads to visit.

• [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Anything you could ever want to know about the nature of magic in WoW gets explored here. anything.
  
• [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] are both explorations on how the magic of Azeroth fits together, both written by Blood Elf scholars.
  

Thank you very much. I have been Reading up on the lore a lot lately, but some of the things inviolvign magic in WoW have been eluding me. Thank you very much, i really appreciate this

Siegmund wrote:Necromancy isn't fel D'ohoh silly lilly.

Do you have any quote or lore reference to say it isn't? Even though we know fel users use soul shards, and Gul'dan as the first necromancer practiced fel energies?

Siegmund wrote:Hell is a thing in Wow least a word people use, deal with it. If it was retconned i'd not have Hellfire on my spell list. Or other things for that matter.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I'm sorry, an official Blizzard retcon isn't real enough for you? The word is used, yes, but the idea of hell as a place of eternal suffering is subject to retcon, along with my earlier quote from Day of the Dragon.

erwtenpeller wrote:Was it really necessary to explode this discussion in the poor guy's registry thread?

Whoops. I'll stop now.

I fail to see peoples issue. So some of us don't like mages, who cares? Our dislike for mages are not without many IC reasons. Most common is the belief that eventually a mage will go bad.

However I will point out that DoL does accept mages, one of them being a founder. While the guild didn't always shun them, the RP over the past two years or so has left most of the higher ranked Disciples having a strong negative disposition towards Mages. This in turn is passed onto other members as they gain insight into these reasons. However that being said, mages are more than capable of gaining the Disciples trust.

End of the day, we dislike Mages for our own IC reasons so keep it IC please. These debates are pointless because Blizzard lore is about as stable as a rice paper bridge in the rain.

Edit : Oh! Good luck with the guild by the way! Might dust off my own mage if I find the time

I feel like I should join the guild with a mage that doesn't right away betray you and become your enemy. ;D

Yeah, that would be the best. Right now, basicly the entire server has whispered me like: "Hey Eldi, can i make a good mage character who later turns evil and nearly kills you all? please...  " Yeah, a character that wouldn't just betray us and turn to dark magic would be very nice indeed!

Not sure why suddenly Defias Brotherhood uses Shadow/Warlock magic for this same plot line of "help I was good and now I've gone bad unwillingly" thing..it would be nice to have people who willingly enjoy being corrupted and mean.

I totally agree