Why do you use murder in a plot?

I would just like to discuss character murder as a plot.

There has been hundreds of posts on this forum explaining how its unfair for guards to kill/maim/exile criminals because it ends their role-play, and many times it has been explained that guards never force character death...which I don't think we ever have.

Then why do criminals think its okay to piss guards off by trying to kill them or by dumping dead bodies outside the guard houses and then expect the guards to go easy on them? It is forcing the guards to be tough, but we can't without fear of being pointed at for forcing a punishment they do not want. We guards are constantly backed into this corner and have to act incompetent so that these criminals who kill or are serial murderers to get off with a lighter sentence. Think of it like GTA, you beat some-one up in the street, you get the one little police star and you have to outrun them. You murder and you are going to have the entire squad on your ass and your chances of escape are very slim.

But alas, this is not what the problem is. The main problem is why murder is a bad plotline. We see role-play as one giant soap drama playing out within the world that is Azeroth, you have the villains, the heroes and the grey area. Murder is probably the worst crime any-one can commit. It shouldn't come by easily and it shouldn't be used to make a character seem cruel or ''bad-ass'' because of the consequences following from it. It's not a fun plot for either side, you kill her, her sister kills you, your sisters brother kills her..then the guards execute them all..etc. How can you forward your plot and others plots by murder..you can't. You kill some-ones character you kill their RP, that is the end of everything, their stories, their ambitions..everything. For the murderer, it also stops because you are constantly on the run and will eventually be found out and...murdered back. To be a murderer, you must be prepared to be murdered.

''But Wulfgnar, you have executed people!'' Execution is a consequence to a serial murderers actions. Without consequences to plots, then their would be no plots.
''Why does that mean I can't murder your toon for executing my best pal?'' because its part of the job of being a guard, to provide consequences to actions.
''Isn't that unfair that you won't have your character murdered in a revenge plot?'' No, I did not ask the criminal to murder. They have a choice. They don't murder, I don't execute. Simple.

Why use murder as part of your plot.

Because people don't understand Action and Reaction.

Cause and effect, brought to us courtesy of short sighted behavior.

i do agree that leeching development out of forcing pepole to stop playing is the absolutly worst thing one can do.

i did saw criminals emoting something like "slit his throat" and i agree that it's HORRIBLE and pepole should feel free to powerdodge such laughable attempts to make them stop play.

pepole are entitled to have power over their character death or life, there can be many other permanent damages that can scarr you for a long time (like the C on the forehead or other punishments) that does not grief pepole on a OOC degree.

you see i avoid RPing in SW for this very reason, there are pepole in there who think they can do whatever without consequences or regard of other pepole enjoyment.

I think you hit the nail on the head wulfy. They murder to be bad ass.

There are times murder can work, to remove a threat or as a tragic mistake or in the heat of anger for example. All three of these develop a character and have some grey area.

But ganking people cos they spill your pint or just logging on to take a life is very two dimentional. How many RP chars do you think the evil lex killed in the city? Would it supprise you to know the answer is 1 in self defense (a scerlet).

Just follow RP and make deep characters and if you ever need to kill it will seem to be real.

I have to agree. I don't care much for murder RP, unless it was perhaps worked out by both players OOC and both desired and agreed upon. There is a difference between killing a character off say... because it made sense in some ongoing storyline, or because someone was leaving the server and wanted it. Again, all with OOC working and permission. And then there's just murdering some random sod walking by just because. But good play practice should encourage RP, build upon it, facilitate it. Murder is, as Rae put it, a bit of a stopping point. And if you aren't willing to RP out the consequences of randomly murdering people, then that's no good. It doesn't really make sense for the guards to go easy on such people, and they shouldn't be forced to.

I played a villain for a long time 'back in the day' and got up to plenty of trouble... Heck, Fenuviel was even the leader of the Dark Sphere briefly, back in its hayday. I dare say he was even fairly infamous at some point, and that was for many things, other than murder! Plenty of great criminal/villainous things to do other than murder! I'd almost say it's a lack of creativity to resort to that.

In all honesty, the one time he did kill a character IC, it was completely planned out OOC ahead of time, and made perfect sense IC. However, it did ruin the character a bit afterwards. And both IC and OOC I expected that the leader of the guild would be ICly bringing the smackdown for Fenuviel killing his right hand. I was prepared to accept those consequences. Luckily, Shagrath being a fellow cultist, the actual law didn't really care to charge Fenuviel for it at least. But it was such a huge act that it forever marked Fenuviel, and the character sort of.. degenerated after it.

Anyway, rambling. Murder is... not a great tool. A bit cheapened if not used sparingly. So much 'bad' stuff you can do otherwise!

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:
They have a choice. They don't murder, I don't execute. Simple.

You have a choice, you don't execute, we don't murder you. Simple.

Executing people is just as much pissing off criminals as murder pisses off guards.  There are consequences to being a guard too. (wasn't the hole point of that stupid black cowl for the executioner just so people didn't go after the one that killed their friend?)

The point is, you don't want to be killed, hence you aren't. Similar to the courtesy given to criminals. As it should be.

that said, Murder can be stupid crutch, and it can be a good one. Just like about everything else. Most plots of most dudes are simply terrible, because most rpers are terrible story-tellers and even worse actors.

Murder can make a plot epic, since it is not the device which makes the story epic but the use of it. Think of LOTR, a pretty linear and banal plot with little surprises, yet epic because of the majestic storytelling.

Same goes for murder, I saw all sorts of people (good hearted paladins, guards, criminals, cultists and so on) murder ever so coldly, that happenes because none of -us- truly knows what there is in a murderer's mind nor we know the possible traumas which come from it. We can't dictate how they should RP, we can only invite them to be more careful and maybe seek better approaches.
Murder can be a good plotline, here is an example of an experience of mine:
Cadaemus was going to take a break from WoW and wanted his gnome to die, Clutzcog. He whispers and we OOCly plans the murder and all, we invent a cool storyline revolving around an unpaid debt. This gnome is killed, does the RP actually end there? No.
This murder has effects on quite a few chars, to list some: Sullee, a friend of Clutzcog, traumatized by this becomes ever so depressed and in this moment of fragility befriends my gnome, slowly starting a process under my influence which will make him a greedy criminal, and in the end a kingpin. Quite a character developement.
My gnome, instead, takes a further step down and becomes colder and less caring towards his own kind.
A quite important step for my future RP, since this murder and other future crimes will make my gnome totally careless in the regards of the others and he will care only about his family and the gang...something which will cost him the exile and nearly brought a civil war in the Cartel.

That murder happened in Winter 2010 or 2011,  ( I can't truly remember ) and the effects lasted till Winter 2013, when Sullee died and my gnome was definately in exile.

If you still deem murder in general a bad plotline. It saddens me, because it has endless possibilities.

It can be a good plot, for sure! The death of Shagrath rocked things, and was a source of further RP, art, stories. But it was another case of someone leaving the game. It was planned. I just don't like the idea of random murdering for the sake of being 'evil', especially where it is forced on people.

@Greenbeard what you described happened out of the victim's consent, he knew it that it was going to happen OOCly, and for reasons, he went for it. Which is absolutely fine and indeed a great chance of development for all the char's beloved ones.

What disgust me, instead, is when some guy come behind to you and pretends that someone should end years of development because he decided it, because he had no other means to be a "respected badass criminal".

With that, i do not mean that my characters are immune to death, there are many situations that could kill my characters, and i'd go along with them, but there is a limit, a decency even, that some pepole just wont have. He kills you, cheer about it in /g, and then he forgets it, but for you? your charcter is over, reroll, who cares.

that is a big red NO to me, and that is the difference, between a murder that is fun, like greenbeard's, and a murder that is not, like some random guy trying to gut you in cath square.

EDIT: and i'd like to add, the guards should go a lot harder towards pepole that actually killed other's characters. if you kill, you are up to get killed. you do not want to? then don't force it on others!

Nihilia wrote:@Greenbeard what you described happened out of the victim's consent, he knew it that it was going to happen OOCly, and for reasons, he went for it. Which is absolutely fine and indeed a great chance of development for all the char's beloved ones.

What disgust me, instead, is when some guy come behind to you and pretends that someone should end years of development because he decided it, because he had no other means to be a "respected badass criminal".

With that, i do not mean that my characters are immune to death, there are many situations that could kill my characters, and i'd go along with them, but there is a limit, a decency even, that some pepole just wont have. He kills you, cheer about it in /g, and then he forgets it, but for you? your charcter is over, reroll, who cares.

that is a big red NO to me, and that is the difference, between a murder that is fun, like greenbeard's, and a murder that is not, like some random guy trying to gut you in cath square.

I do agree with you there, but I can assure you, out of 3 years of RP as a criminal, that the same happens to criminals as well. You can't imagine how many times guards or white knights wanted to murder me for minor charges, only to crush criminal RP for their own pleasure and not interested in creating any sort of RP. And that wasn't fun at all.
Such hideous mistake happens on both sides, guards wanting to simply crush criminals, and criminals simply wanting to be the joker or what-not.
The truth is that people will learn. With time and mistakes.

Do we want to deny to have been terrible RPers in the past who -did- that? We all did. Accept such mistakes*, be gentle OOC and explain them your point of view. Making a thread is seldom useful.

*I didn't mean to get killed, I meant not to feel that scandalized by such poor display.

Greenbeard wrote:I do agree with you there, but I can assure you, out of 3 years of RP as a criminal, that the same happens to criminals as well. You can't imagine how many times guards or white knights wanted to murder me for minor charges, only to crush criminal RP for their own pleasure and not interested in creating any sort of RP. And that wasn't fun at all.
Such hideous mistake happens on both sides, guards wanting to simply crush criminals, and criminals simply wanting to be the joker or what-not.
The truth is that people will learn. With time and mistakes.

Do we want to deny to have been terrible RPers in the past who -did- that? We all did. Accept such mistakes*, be gentle OOC and explain them your point of view. Making a thread is seldom useful.

*I didn't mean to get killed, I meant not to feel that scandalized by such poor display.

aye i used the typical criminal example because it's easier but of course, the point stands for all situations, goodies, neutral and villans alike. i believe that there should be some sort of OOC agreement between goodies and baddies guildies that states how and when certain characters, or all, should be deemed killable. Thus creating golden rules to impose on the less and/or more expert members alike. Thus preventing drama and the need of threads such as this.

And sadly i do get a bit oversensitive about this matter because it caused me and other pepole so much of an hard time.

''Murder is good when its planned.'' Yes quite obviously so. ''Murder is bad when its just random'' Yes another obvious point.

This thread is mostly about murdering (not just toons but npcs too) or dumping bodies to make a character seem strong or badass. Either on the criminal side or guard side.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:''Murder is good when its planned.'' Yes quite obviously so. ''Murder is bad when its just random'' Yes another obvious point.

This thread is mostly about murdering (not just toons but npcs too) or dumping bodies to make a character seem strong or badass. Either on the criminal side or guard side.

there is no need to be hostile, wulf. And actually i belive we did discussed it, down from the very root: lack of sensibility from pepole that dont know about the consequences of their actions, with very few exceptions.

I'm hardly being hostile! I'm just a little concerned at the amount of attempted murder that has happened to rpers, needlessly.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:I'm hardly being hostile! I'm just a little concerned at the amount of attempted murder that has happened to rpers, needlessly.

well like i had suggested, i belive that the only way to turn this situation around is to comunicate with the criminal's guilds, OOCly. Since many pepole are having troubles on the matter, i'd say, you guys arrange a little inter-guild meeting among GM's and officers and say "hey, we have our differences, and opinions on the matter, but could we compromise on something that allows us all to go roleplay without the fear of overeacting sentences/criminal acts?"

the thing i'd propose, is to only execute pepole that actually has killed characters, and in return, criminals don't try to kill PC characters out of the blue. No more unjustified murder, no more drama. Criminals can be so without begin serial killers, and judges can be severe without play as the queen of hearts.

I think that murder is an interesting plot device WHEN the person agrees to it OOCly (I'm quite against killing anyone off without their express permission, and if they're on the fence even, you just find another way). If you have a group of people and it's IC for them to kill others, AND the person agrees with it, fine.

I have to say that the death of Azarth (while strictly an execution rather than a murder, and while I TOTALLY hated him for dying) created a SHITTON of RP for a lot of people.

It can create a sense of danger, a sense of reality, and thrill, but not when overused or forced on anyone. I've seen really poorly-executed murders/murder attempts that should've never happened, and really cool death scenes that were emoted by the -victim- when struck that created epic RP later.

I'd say it's a great use of plotline if someone's bored of a char, or perhaps planning to stop RPing it, and they get it murdered instead. Mind you, Wulf, the chain of murders and retaliations, ending in execution, is good RP, imo: you can get roleplay by ICly decrying and trying to stop the cycle of revenge, as I've found out firsthand. That part, at least, I'd take IC. But forcing death on people OOCly when they wish to continue RPing that character, godemoting kills, or anything like that--I agree, it -ends- RP rather than creating it.

Usually when I have fights that might result in death I have characters that would severly wound the other character and then walk away just because he can then choose to either bleed out, or recover. I tend to try and stay away from those situations ofcourse but if I do get the upperhand I will usually do it like this because it leaves room for the poor fellow to survive. I dont call the life or death situations though. (all what the other character want ofcourse.)

I have the same stance for fighting worgen. I wont emote getting bit unless I want that character with the curse, and I wont expect anyone to be bit by my worgen either unless they want the curse(Talking of fighting humans ofcourse).

If you're RPing World of Warcraft, less as a high-fantasy setting and more as a realistic setting then death should be omnipresent.

With that said, I can only echo what Amaryl has spoken. If you execute a criminal, then his/her criminal buddies have any right to a vendetta as you had in executing said criminal for whatever crimes he/she may have committed.

There are consequences to every action and we OOCly do not go with the idea that breaking the law is bad and only guards can kill criminals/villains/cultists. It goes both ways.

If you are unwilling to accept the consequences of for example:

Wulfgnar killed a Scarlet last time right? If said Scarlet had friends whom were out for revenge and cornered Wulfgnar, these would be direct consequences of Wulfgnar's actions, and if you were unwilling to accept them then that would paint you out to be a hypocrite. (I don't know whether you would or not, it's an example)

tl;dr This post also applies to the roleplay conducted by guards.

This thread always comes about every few months.

Guard or Crim blames opposite side for attempted murder. Couple of people agree. Opposite side comes in and points out that it happens to both sides. Couple of people agree. Both sides argue a little. A day goes by. Both sides begin to agree that consiquences for your actions are best and both sides should be responsible and be respectful to one another. Smiles all around. People forget a few months later. New thread.

Vaell, RP debates in a nutshell, nicely said.

But ultimately it comes down to this; RP Mimics real life, People are stupid.

Criminals that dumb bodies infront of the guards in an effort to look bad-ass are stupid, because they get caught. Guards that think they can go after evil-doers alone, get shanked, because they're stupid. etc. etc. etc.

People are simply stupid.

Greenbeard wrote:Murder can make a plot epic, since it is not the device which makes the story epic but the use of it. Think of LOTR, a pretty linear and banal plot with little surprises, yet epic because of the majestic storytelling.

Same goes for murder, I saw all sorts of people (good hearted paladins, guards, criminals, cultists and so on) murder ever so coldly, that happenes because none of -us- truly knows what there is in a murderer's mind nor we know the possible traumas which come from it. We can't dictate how they should RP, we can only invite them to be more careful and maybe seek better approaches.
Murder can be a good plotline, here is an example of an experience of mine:
Cadaemus was going to take a break from WoW and wanted his gnome to die, Clutzcog. He whispers and we OOCly plans the murder and all, we invent a cool storyline revolving around an unpaid debt. This gnome is killed, does the RP actually end there? No.
This murder has effects on quite a few chars, to list some: Sullee, a friend of Clutzcog, traumatized by this becomes ever so depressed and in this moment of fragility befriends my gnome, slowly starting a process under my influence which will make him a greedy criminal, and in the end a kingpin. Quite a character developement.
My gnome, instead, takes a further step down and becomes colder and less caring towards his own kind.
A quite important step for my future RP, since this murder and other future crimes will make my gnome totally careless in the regards of the others and he will care only about his family and the gang...something which will cost him the exile and nearly brought a civil war in the Cartel.

That murder happened in Winter 2010 or 2011,  ( I can't truly remember ) and the effects lasted till Winter 2013, when Sullee died and my gnome was definately in exile.

If you still deem murder in general a bad plotline. It saddens me, because it has endless possibilities.

Oh sweet, sweet Sullee.. My RP pride.

This all riding on the interpretation that death is something final in world of warcraft...

Rez plz.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:This thread is mostly about murdering (not just toons but npcs too) or dumping bodies to make a character seem strong or badass. Either on the criminal side or guard side.

Like when a certain group of omg so evil guys where dumping dead bodies onto Northshire Abbey and the Guardhouse from Griffons? That does tend to get a bit silly at times.

Repeating the last post, I don't think this thread was made as much to make yet another debate on whether killing eachother is ok, but more to encourage baddies to find more creative ways to be a baddie.

Which I am totally behind.

yesh.. this.. Hmm.. well i have surprising had a few people try to kill monny.. one almost succeeded..however as for those who sneek up and *sticks a blade between monny's ribs* I tend to throw them emotes to one side by saying my armour is to thigh for any measly dagger to penetrate.. most usualy get the message and leave.. I am yet to understand why i have had a few death attempts at monny, she herself is now leading a murder investigation in itself (probbaly the same one that sparked this thread by wulf.. I dont know)

erwtenpeller wrote:This all riding on the interpretation that death is something final in world of warcraft...

Rez plz.

I think some people don't like to take Rez's IC. That all comes back down to preference.

I personally don't adopt them into my RP, although if others around me do that's fine. I just like the finality of death. And also find it hard to understand why every single plot character that was killed (In-Game Lore) was not just rezzed instead.