Every large-scale RP-PvP campaign, a massive lorelol?

The title might be slightly controversial, but the point is this:

Going by the fact that the Horde & Alliance concluded a truce after the defeat of the Burning Legion, a truce being that neither faction would wage war on the other in any serious way - How does the essential U-Turn of RP-PvP campaigns fit into that narrative?

I mean, let's take a random Hillsbrad campaign (there has been a few). These campaigns have always been something bigger than your average BG with support from dozen(s) of guilds from each faction. But the point being is that the two factions would be at a truce, negating any justification for any sort of serious campaign to be formulated or required.

On the flip side of that, both Northrend and Draenor are riddled with quests of killing the opposing faction (but in skirmishes, rather than destroying whole towns or making any 'deep' impact) and in both expansions the Horde/Alliance united against a common foe.

So the question is: Because of the uneasy truce (but still a truce) established in the Reign of Chaos period and the fall of Archimonde, were campaigns that were 'large' or at least with large intentions directly going against the pre-established lore and story line of World of Warcraft as a whole?

Lore lol from the head of the senate

I always think it would be better if you used say hillsbrad as a "small area of hillsbrad" and rename the villages and stuff. Then the pvp can be just a small part of a greater advance. The benefit being that the result is meaningless to the story but is important to the role players who are in that conflict. Best is that then rather than the strangeness of "armies" of 40 people you can RP that the amount you have is the complete size of the force. On the downside... there would be no more grand generals XD

This kind of thinking can then be expanded to cover a great deal of the problems people have with RP crossing lore. For example a civil war between 2 house guilds is then just a little scuffle between a few knights and a few retainers.

Basically keep the RP low power so the results would not need to step to an area where kings only tread.

To be quite fair. That truce has already been broken, stamped and trodden on, and them spit, dug into its grave. Dug up. Pissed on. Burnt and then buried again.

And that isn't just from an IC point of view. After the cataclysm, there was several wars. The forsaken attacking Southshore. The forsaken attacking Gilneas. The alliance attacking Taurajo, completely decimating the entirety of the city. The horde decimating the entirety of Theramore. Then there was several other places where war has been a pivotal point. So. That argument, that IC campaigns are a lorelol, is completely dead and gone.

Cerik Ironforge wrote:So the question is: Because of the uneasy truce (but still a truce) established in the Reign of Chaos period and the fall of Archimonde, were campaigns that were 'large' or at least with large intentions directly going against the pre-established lore and story line of World of Warcraft as a whole?

That truce went out of the window the moment you logged into the World of Warcraft, as the opening cinematic tries to make clear:



0:25

"The tenuous pact between the Horde and the Alliance, has all but evaporated"

"The drums of war thunder once again"

*Cue lots of footage of Horde and Alliance members fighting one another*.

I don't think the 'uneasy truce etablished in the Reign of Chaos period and the Fall of Archimonde" endured in World of Warcraft. In fact, said truce was mostly between Jaina's lot and Theramore: did Stormwind ever agree to anything? They had been purposefully kept out of the narrative in Warcraft 3, only getting reintroduced in World of Warcraft.

And even if this weren't the case, it must be blatantly obvious for anyone who has played trough Mists of Pandaria that, during this expansion, the Horde and the Alliance engage in open warfare. I mean, take a look at this cinematic:



"Alliance blood spills: this pleases me, general".

Yes, this certainly sounds like the words of one of two factions that have engaged in an 'uneasy truce'.

There may however be a new uneasy truce after the new status quo set in place by the ending of Mists of Pandaria, at least at the end of the Siege of Ogrimmar raid. So, your point will likely apply to any rp-pvp that will take place between the Horde and the Alliance after the Siege of Ogrimmar has been concluded, but not between any of the RP-PVP that happened bewteen it and Vanilla, I shouldn't think.

The Jade Fist campaign, for example, explicitly attempted to play out the conflict in the Jade Forest which you quested trough while leveling your character in Pandaria. I don't think it gets any more true to the lore than that.

Most nothern campaigns have been about reclaiming lordearon, by lordaeronians. I wouldn't call that lore-lol.

its just doomed to fail.

since cata there has been war between the factions. and before that, uneasy truce doesn't mean, we don't fight. we just don't have total war.

And if the truce lore gets in the way, it's just player factions duking it out without permission from their kings or chiefs or whatever.

As Thelos said, since WoW came out it was a build up to full out war. MoP was supposedly considered that war but it was a little underwhelming. The two factions have plenty who wish to fight but they will not have the backing of the Alliance. If we RPed the "King's chosen forces" back during the high season of PvP campaigns, we'd be loreloling for sure. It was usually just skirmishes between opposing sub-factions.

Good point Thelos, let me rectify my point. Up until Cataclysm and before Garrosh became Warchief, (even he is treated as an anomaly in MoP and the 'real' Horde and Alliance unite against him)

In any case, it was only something for consideration rather than a general statement.

I'd also like to point out that those Hillsbrad campaigns weren't Lordaeronian themed and had practically every Alliance guild involved, (they were only based in Lordaeron really).

As a final point:

http://wowpedia.org/Alliance-Horde_War#World_of_Warcraft

'Official' declaration of war occurred in Wrath of the Lich King by Varian Wrynn according to that! Though I wouldn't consider the Forsaken invading Gilneas as a declaration of war on the Alliance, seeing as Gilneas left the Alliance.

In any case, the mutual agreement seems to fall under the category of all battles being skirmishes rather than reflective of their nations standing, though which is cited by both Thelos & WoWpedia to be the development and essential breaking of the truce that was achieved in Hyjal.

I think you're confusing Purpose with participants of most hillsbrad campaigns. I won't deny there haven't been campaigns in hillsbrad that weren't from an "Alliance" perspective, but that's really the minority of them. They did get support of most of the alliance guilds ofcourse, but again that doesn't make it an alliance ordered or commanded campaign.

Amaryl wrote:but again that doesn't make it an alliance ordered or commanded campaign.

How come?

Because Purpose matters.

edit: The 2011 barrens campaign was a dwarven campaign, it was chiefly about the dwarven goals and ambitions, the fact that everyone from the regiment to the disciples to the holy light bringers to the night elves joined, didn't change the tone, mood and theme of the campaign.

Because I don't remember many Elves or Draenei giving a shit until they were asked personally to help a faction they knew.

True, intent is important. But what sort of Kingdom would not know where ten of it's military orders are heading..? I mean, ten isn't that much in the long-term, but at the same time it's a significant amount to notice.

I suppose it's been easier for the Horde, ORB are not really a part of the 'system' of the Horde, i.e in any official positions. Neither was the Cult of the Shadow, or Sin Belore, or Second Gurubashi Empire.. or any other guild that sprung up on that side.

So it was considerably easier for them to move about, I think you get my meaning. While SW focused guilds, that all leave at the same time in a grand pre-planned campaign and never mind with the Stormwind Council and the Senate of Ironforge involved..

I can't honestly comment on the 2011 as I wasn't there from the Alliance side, or was that Gnash's path of destruction one? I seem to remember one in the barrens like that as well.

Cerik Ironforge wrote: ORB are not really a part of the 'system' of the Horde, i.e in any official positions. Neither was the Cult of the Shadow, or Sin Belore, or Second Gurubashi Empire.. or any other guild that sprung up on that side.

Neither are any of the Alliance guilds. They just appear to have delusions of grandeur.

Some do come across very intertwined with the apparatus of their respective faction and I suppose that's what I get at. But at the same time, it is rather odd when there's ten (doubt there's that many anymore but w/e) guilds heading off to fight in one location!

Cerik Ironforge wrote:True, intent is important. But what sort of Kingdom would not know where ten of it's military orders are heading..? I mean, ten isn't that much in the long-term, but at the same time it's a significant amount to notice.

I suppose it's been easier for the Horde, ORB are not really a part of the 'system' of the Horde, i.e in any official positions. Neither was the Cult of the Shadow, or Sin Belore, or Second Gurubashi Empire.. or any other guild that sprung up on that side.

So it was considerably easier for them to move about, I think you get my meaning. While SW focused guilds, that all leave at the same time in a grand pre-planned campaign and never mind with the Stormwind Council and the Senate of Ironforge involved..

I can't honestly comment on the 2011 as I wasn't there from the Alliance side, or was that Gnash's path of destruction one? I seem to remember one in the barrens like that as well.

Its kinda the same with most alliance guilds though; most are factions of the church of holy light, or just adventurers, or a lordearon remnants guild, or mercs, etc, few guilds have actually been chiefly "alliance militairy" (usually one or two at a time)

It could be the 2010 version then... I don't know, there was like 1 barrens campaign every year, (just like hilly)

Because I don't remember many Elves or Draenei giving a shit until they were asked personally to help a faction they knew.

As I was proverbially 'ball deep' in organising W-pvp campaigns from 2005 to 2008 I'l eventually get a suitable post and response up to all of this when I have the time to think it through properly.

Good topic though, worth some considerable thought.