[A] The Tale of the Suppressed - Old serverlore, and for the interest of Dark RP'ers

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Why did you roleplay with the Chapter of Holy Anethion whom had a similar player crafted history funnily enough originally written by the same person?

For me there's a pretty big difference between inserting a single character in the lore that has founded his own religion that's still very much grounded in the world, and changing the origins of human kind to suit your needs.

But-- Before anyone yells at me, us "non believers" always have the option of saying "no, you're wrong" in-character, because they are wrong. They believe in lies.

And that's okay. Some of my characters have completely untrue beliefs too. Or at least, beliefs that can't be proven or dis-proven with what we know.

It's not re-writting it's adding a group of people who like sects in real life come up with stories and beliefs to a group of people. Varies interaction and roleplay options

always have the option of saying "no, you're wrong" in-character, because they are wrong. They believe in lies.

And that's okay. Some of my characters have completely untrue beliefs too.

This is the approach that TDS have always taken to my knowledge. They have never cemented their perspective, outlook or beliefs OOCly as the one and holy truth. It has always been in character.

The following is an opinion:

When you start re-writing things to make the Light look "bad" and make the shadow look "good", you're doing something terribly wrong. You're being very unimaginative, as well. If you're going to play a shadow user, don't play the kicked, misunderstood little puppy. You're not. You're a shadow user, you reached for the selfish, and for power. So play that.

That doesn't mean you can't be a good guy and save the world. You can save the world for perfectly selfish reasons.

Iriel Silversong wrote:It's not re-writting it's adding a group of people who like sects in real life come up with stories and beliefs to a group of people. Varies interaction and roleplay options

It's re-writing it in the sense that it now exists as a belief to believe in, where there wasn't this belief before. Beliefs, like things and people, are things that exist in the world. When you add or remove them, you change something that exists.

Before: Belief A did not exist.

*Rewrite*

After: Belief A does now exist, and there exist people who believe in it.

It "varies" role-playing options in a way I am not comfortable with. It adds something to the world that I would rather see not be added.

@Vangrel: I am not expecting anything to change. I am purely speaking in hypothetics and theory. Like I've said, I have learned to accept that my position is unpopulair and have already come to tolerate this server-lore that I deem undesirable. Tolerating is not the same as approving, however.

Well all I can say i've in the latest read up on some wow comic lore, even on the dark riders. Sort of like the lore, even if Blizz does contradict some parts of it at some points.

I'm not that great on knowing some serverlore, having only stated in cata and all that... I'm not sure, but i don't see too much of a problem. Not really a thing for me, but i'm not everyone.

Only thing i do remember one was something to do with the Slaughtered Lamb lore, but *shrug*

*Grabs popcorn for rest of the discusion*

It's a twisted ideology. From my RP experience both as Andrek's aspiring apprentice to roleplaying with Rohim, Ondius, Mordazan, it was only projected to have the Shadow worshipers as the victims in order to gain favor with those who were easy to manipulate.

The roleplay always did revolve around an insane lust for power and the destruction of everybody who got in your way.

Take your time to go and read Fenuviels&Shagrath's stories here on DefiasRP, or even Mordazan's. It's all about that, and it's well written.

Propaganda is an effective tool to begin with, "we are the victims of the Holy Light" so on and so forth.

That's how I perceived it in my roleplay experience with these individuals and how I understood it.

@Thelos, that's fair enough, and I'm just saying you're not alone in that boat.

When the Kingdom of Stromgarde roleplayed for a year or so that they had rebuilt Stromgarde I thought it was the most retarded thing ever, but then I looked to myself and saw that I participated in RP with the Senate, which is also essentially player driven lore that contradicts the established lore, which essentially made me a massive hypocrite in that regard.

It came down to two things: 'Breaking' the lore within reason, accepting organizations such as the Chapter, SW Council, Senate, Silvermoon Council, Circle of Darnassus, Tinkers Court, etc. And rejecting things that were just preposterous, again to draw an example, the Trollbane Monarchy carry on which was just a step too far (at least in my opinion). Not that it really matters in the end.

The principle of 'breaking' the lore in the end is the same, no matter how big or small the 'break' is.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:The principle of 'breaking' the lore in the end is the same, no matter how big or small the 'break' is.

I concur, which is exactly why I take the extreme position against the principle of breaking lore in all forms, both great and small. I see it as an evil. It might sometimes be a necessary evil, but it is always an evil all the same. An evil that might be tolerated for the sake of a bigger good, but still an evil.

It seems like we are in agreement on the basics; our disagreement lies more in the realm of quantity than quality and the strictness of conviction.

Jeanpierre wrote:

Inran/Skarain wrote:
As a closing note, you can come after us, but do not expect walking away unharmed if your intentions are unfriendly. We are enemies in the eyes of the Light, and that goes well to us, that is our concept after all. All we ask from you is to share an equal ground and standpoint, and be prepared to be harmed in turn if you seek to hunt and kill us down like the Wielders of Light of the story did.

This sounded much like an aggressive bark. Does the person who wrote this have a history with being bullied down by Lighties or something?
I don't know.. I just found it such a pointed remark.

In my experience, such a note would deserve to go both ways. So let me ask you this.. What are you willing to pay for giving a stab?

Those are my words and not his.

May or may not be the truth. Read on own risk and please don't start a heated-up debate:

Vangrel Lansire wrote:It's a twisted ideology. From my RP experience both as Andrek's aspiring apprentice to roleplaying with Rohim, Ondius, Mordazan, it was only projected to have the Shadow worshipers as the victims in order to gain favor with those who were easy to manipulate.

This, basically, is what the story is about.

I'd just like to comment that server lore is not a "DB thing" as people like to call it. You'll find it anywhere where people RP. On AD it may be concealed more in separate bubbles that do or do not recognise each other, but it's still there.

Doesn't make it less annoying though, for people who would rather be without.

Allonia_Miral wrote:I'd just like to comment that server lore is not a "DB thing" as people like to call it. You'll find it anywhere where people RP. On AD it may be concealed more in separate bubbles that do or do not recognise each other, but it's still there.

Doesn't make it less annoying though, for people who would rather be without.

Yes, I know it's not unique to DB.

Edit:

Could somebody explain to me what a Shadow-worshipper is?

Allonia_Miral wrote:I'd just like to comment that server lore is not a "DB thing" as people like to call it. You'll find it anywhere where people RP. On AD it may be concealed more in separate bubbles that do or do not recognise each other, but it's still there.

Doesn't make it less annoying though, for people who would rather be without.

AD has a fairly large and vocal group of people who make Thelos' position seem like he supports "Server Lore".

@Inran/Skarain It seems we stumble on something that irks both sides. I can echo some of the observations, but then I think they are "incomplete".

A fact that's often forgotten is the pressure the evil people put on the other side. The good side often has to deal with every crazy idea a cultist can come up with. I've never heard of a zerg being organized for a single man being seduced to the dark side. Or a political game being played. But often the actions are of such dramatic nature, that all RP "has to be controlled by it" if you don't want to break character.

Bodies falling from the sky, blood smeared over walls, people publicly crucified, plague bombs, demon blood being injected at random to anyone they can get their hands on... With such overly public actions, any character taking up the responsibility to care for the citizens has no choice but to respond. And then the evil ones play hard to get, or play with such powers that it becomes hard to stop.. and thus it never stops. Not until the only outcome that is left is the almighty zerg you refer to. I hate that zerg. I really do. It's a shit solution and I usually don't take part (unless the evil ones dragged me in). But rarely are we offered any other way out. I recall being offered a different outcome only once. In all those years, only once was did the other side work out a more balanced end.

I don't see the huge reason to quarrel here. It is a group of characters which have a belief. Does this make the belief to be 100% true? No, of course not, but the -characters- still believe in it. And they should be allowed too! Inran was just informing of the belief on an ooc level to aid those around to understand more.

While my chars don't personally hold the same beliefs in Shadow as the Serpent Academy, it don't make it wrong for them to believe in it.

Its a game, relax and have fun! Creativity is good!

The tale that is unknown to many, this is a short version of the fan-lore created years ago by the creators of Riders of Karazhan/The Dark Speher/Hand of Nightmares

My only issue with all of this was this, as (to my knowledge) it's nothing of the sort. Riders of Karazhan were real lore figures, not even a guild... that I'm aware of?

On the topic of player lore: I loved Chapter and the RP they brought. I like the idea of councils and large "official" organizations and I liked the flavor the Arathorians lent. I don't really see the difference between these organizations and any guild, as all guilds claim to be "officially-recognized" organizations of some sort--guard guilds, Lighty guilds, and so on. Just my opinion--I don't vehemently support either side, just that I don't see an issue with making up player lore, and in this case, they aren't--they're making up propaganda IC.

I just wouldn't claim it OOCly to be TDS's "legacy" etc, unless there's something backing it up? I distinctly remember an SA fellow claiming to be the "heir" of a TDS, whom he apparently wasn't aware was -still alive- ICly (and from what I'm told, rejected the notion that this player was playing his son). Maybe that was just IC, but it still reeks of bad form to me.

TL;DR, make your own "legacy" imo, instead of still trying to hang onto the coattails of other guilds who may actually still exist. I'm not TDS/HoN though, so this is an outside opinion.

I apologize for the long post and the non-supportiveness of it, but I can't help commenting on this as it's been bothering me a bit.

The Riders of Karazhan are a non-canon RPG promoted speculated group of riders whom are put forward as either:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Servants of Karazhan literally, or death knights of Gul'Dan.

There is no concrete lore to suggest anything, there is no evidence either

Another point of information; [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The entire story of how the Dark Sphere, a relic of great power is lost. The riders are not explained or put forward. It's only explained ICly that these are strange and powerful riders that descend from Deadwind Pass and exert their will on the cultists living there. No details of who they are 100% are put forward, because I'd imagine the Spherites themselves don't really know.

Feral wrote:TL;DR, make your own "legacy" imo, instead of still trying to hang onto the coattails of other guilds who may actually still exist.

The Dark Sphere does not exist, it's a perfectly valid IC claim to be their heir, but, I agree that making your own name and legacy is a far better option than anything else.

Paia/Jenit wrote:

Allonia_Miral wrote:I'd just like to comment that server lore is not a "DB thing" as people like to call it. You'll find it anywhere where people RP. On AD it may be concealed more in separate bubbles that do or do not recognise each other, but it's still there.

Doesn't make it less annoying though, for people who would rather be without.

AD has a fairly large and vocal group of people who make Thelos' position seem like he supports "Server Lore".

And for some reason they are all Belfs who have a very strange view of what Belfs are XD.

Now to play my own hypocrit card. I do not think big institutions are a good idea, including the SW council I was in for a good art of a year. I also no longer believe that grand war councils and the W pvp events are fit for use.

I no longer think it is ok to call 60 people in a wpvp event an army, or for a regiment to be 12 people, or even pretend that there are a whole group of nameless faceless people that support your cause. It is now my belief that we should represent what we can as RP guilds.

As for people being senators, ministers, princesses (as it all boils down exactly the same) no if your char is that important that you have to concider what faction leaders think of you and your choices you have gone too far. There is so much you can do without these groups.

Finally player made lore like the antlions and TDSis fine imo provided it fits into my ideal of not becomming so important that king chin would know of them. In the case of religion of an RP char, anything goes. It is a characters choice to believe what they want. If religion was nationalistic comletely there would be no roman Christians, western Buddhists or 60s Hindu. By this im happy to roll with lighty Orcs or Elune worshipping gnomes.

Finally finally Lore is a structure for RP, it is the scene. It is not a straight jacket that confines your RP, ultimately you are an individual in a universe discribed by lore.

A very interesting and important point brought on the table, JP. One surely often left unconsidered by the Dark side. I have personally been only on the Dark and Gray sides myself, so it's refreshing to hear another point of view. Maybe we all who now read this thread and those who will search after old information years after become wiser of it, and both sides to respect eachother in their conflicts to come.

Also, i've made slight edit to the story, changing the "Legacy" being more towards the ancestral suppressed, rather than directly the guilds that came before The Serpent Academy. Perhaps they are to leave their own legacy on the memory of server, given time to grow. Positively, least their concept is not all-about causing trouble to the good guys, but more of teach the future generations. You will get your pause from having to deal with bad people, and bad people exist in peace and grow for a good even-sided conflict yet someday to come.

Cool change imo. I see no issue with propaganda IC! Also @Vangrel: I'm being told that the Riders -were- a guild, at one point. But lore-wise they are canon--they are in WoW itself, as well as a comic I believe.

@JP: I'd love to get ideas on "ways out" for Lighty guilds, other than zerg. Specifically how to offer the ways out as the dark guild, so I've some ideas if we clash. I don't want to abuse this thread for it though, but at the same time I'd like it "out there," would you be opposed to posting about it somewhere? Or if I make a post could you comment?

Go ahead and abuse the thread for it Feral. The OP of the thread doesn't mind. I more mind if you're to take it to whispers, because i to very much would like to see that exchange of thoughts.

Feral / Blackfall wrote:Cool change imo.  I see no issue with propaganda IC!  Also @Vangrel: I'm being told that the Riders -were- a guild, at one point.  But lore-wise they are canon--they are in WoW itself, as well as a comic I believe.

@JP: I'd love to get ideas on "ways out" for Lighty guilds, other than zerg.  Specifically how to offer the ways out as the dark guild, so I've some ideas if we clash.  I don't want to abuse this thread for it though, but at the same time I'd like it "out there," would you be opposed to posting about it somewhere?  Or if I make a post could you comment?

The good old "Take a Hostage" usually works well on us Lighties. Our weakness is often our sense of duty and honor, abuse it and watch us squirm

Drustai using Vaell as a human shield was fun.

Especially since people decided to just throw a chair at him anyway.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:The Riders of Karazhan are a non-canon RPG promoted speculated group of riders whom are put forward as either:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Servants of Karazhan literally, or death knights of Gul'Dan.

There is no concrete lore to suggest anything, there is no evidence either

Actually! I'd like to comment on that. So far what we had was the Duskwood journal from Jitters. The -latest- lore about the "Dark Riders" (A actual comic that came out May 7, 2013 - Yes very late to release this Blizz) I've read and it explains the lore behind the Dark Riders and it's the newest lore so... I think the saying goes the newest lore and so on and on.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the wiki link. I think i've heard it was cancled long in the past (2011?) but was put back in place or something (Don't ask me).

Point if you go by the lore rule this is it. I'd say what i've learned from it, but i don't have time to type it all up. But it does exist now just so you know. And no they are not Death Knights. (( Also the comic explains a bit about the scythe getting to Gilneas, in a subtle manner. But doesn't explain anything about Starsong or how Duskwood got cursed.))

Are comics considered canon or non-canon?

Canon.