The Temple of Elune

After a rather large RP event last night that ended with multi-guilds fighting amongst each other as a Death Knight tried to enter the Temple of Elune, I wondered. What is the current state (as per lore) of Death Knights, Warlocks, and Highborne being allowed to commune with Elune? Are they terminated on the spot in the Temple? Or tolerated till they act out?

I know in the book Wolfsheart Malfurion makes a mention that Death Knights and Warlocks are to be killed on sight, but I know books are non-canonized.

EShadowsong wrote:I know in the book Wolfsheart Malfurion makes a mention that Death Knights and Warlocks are to be killed on sight, but I know books are non-canonized.  

Negative. The novels are canon. Only the RPG sourcebooks are non-canon.

Basicly RPers are going to go rambo over any little thing, dont give them a reason.

Drustai wrote:

EShadowsong wrote:I know in the book Wolfsheart Malfurion makes a mention that Death Knights and Warlocks are to be killed on sight, but I know books are non-canonized.  

Negative. The novels are canon. Only the RPG sourcebooks are non-canon.

The only thing I have on the canon of books is Metzens statement:

Metzen wrote:...yeah, the novels are pretty much considered canon, ahm, the funny thing is that some things are less canon, you know, but we shoot for canon... that's a strange statement... we shoot for canon... but yeah, typically the characters in novels are canon.

I see that as him saying the characters are canon but the rest is up for interpretation.

"The novels are pretty much considered canon."

That says to me that whatever occurs in them is canon except where stated otherwise/contradicted by an in-game source.

Lexgrad wrote:Basicly RPers are going to go rambo over any little thing, dont give them a reason.

Well, it's actually a perfectly legitimate thing and completely understandable. NElves dislike magic, they naturally would hate the worst parts of magic.

I'd have gone for "They love nature and hate unnatural things".

Why would a Death Knight even want to be in a temple of elune if not to kill itself?

A night elf wanting to worship Elune perhaps?

Thorvald wrote:A night elf wanting to worship Elune perhaps?

That's included in "wanting to kill itself".

Well despite my best efforts to find what someone had referenced, Wolfheart does not seem to contain anything about Death Knights in the Temple of Elune. So unless someone who has read the book can correct me it seems there is no canon behind that. Not to mention that Malfurion is a neutered neutral boss and has no business dictating any Kaldorei Law.

As for a Death Knight in the Temple of Elune? It's quite simple. My character at one point a few months ago was having an indentity crisis and she started to spend a lot of time trying to rediscover her old path. Part of this was communing with Elune. Because of the walls put up by undeath, she was unable to hear the Moon Goddess. Priestesses however helped her, giving her the words of Elune. Elune would never forsake her children despite their state and still loved them all and forgave them for what they had become.

With magic users accepted into Kaldorei society finally (Highborne Mages) there is little I can see for not allowing the Highborne or a Death Knight within the Temple. Though I'm pretty sure that Warlocks are KOS in Darnassus as a whole.

My take on this is that the Kaldorei community dwells in the past far too much. They go off a stereotype that was created as a quick and easy understanding of Night Elfs, that is they hate magic demons and everything unnatural combined with being aggressive and militant, and still cling to that today. It's on this stereotype that people base the claim that Dks wouldn't be allowed in the Temple, not on any actual source from what I've experienced.

Personally I don't even think the stereotype holds if we look at books and changes in the games, so the night elf community should reconsider certain things. Go knock yourself out in the Temple.

Vaell wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:Basicly RPers are going to go rambo over any little thing, dont give them a reason.

Well, it's actually a perfectly legitimate thing and completely understandable. NElves dislike magic, they naturally would hate the worst parts of magic.

Well that isnt the issue Vaell, it is the "my char does not like doing x, I can justfy killing you now". This is most obvious with DKs, but the black and white mentality is everywere in rp really, it doesnt always lead to good role play really.

In this instance, well with out knowing the story it is hard to tell but really it isnt a place a DK should be on paper.

Dréfurion wrote:My take on this is that the Kaldorei community dwells in the past far too much. They go off a stereotype that was created as a quick and easy understanding of Night Elfs, that is they hate magic demons and everything unnatural combined with being aggressive and militant, and still cling to that today. It's on this stereotype that people base the claim that Dks wouldn't be allowed in the Temple, not on any actual source from what I've experienced.

Personally I don't even think the stereotype holds if we look at books and changes in the games, so the night elf community should reconsider certain things. Go knock yourself out in the Temple.

In the case of the highborne too the zealot elf (forget her name) who was hunting down the arcanists was the bad guy and was stopped.

EShadowsong wrote:
I know in the book Wolfsheart Malfurion makes a mention that Death Knights and Warlocks are to be killed on sight 

i've read the novell twice(but in Italian version) and I can't recall any so specific mention my self. And I'm -not- going to read it again any time soon. So I'd really love a specific quote, especially considering we've Mage trainers right outside the temple, in the lateral hallway.

EShadowsong wrote:Though I'm pretty sure that Warlocks are KOS in Darnassus as a whole.

False: Gilneans have warlocks and their trainer is right under the Howling Oak, and the Sentinels lead you to him. Not saying they like it, but it would have been way easy just to make him stay outside in Rut'Theran.

Dréfurion wrote:My take on this is that the Kaldorei community dwells in the past far too much. They go off a stereotype that was created as a quick and easy understanding of Night Elfs, that is they hate magic demons and everything unnatural combined with being aggressive and militant, and still cling to that today. It's on this stereotype that people base the claim that Dks wouldn't be allowed in the Temple, not on any actual source from what I've experienced.

Personally I don't even think the stereotype holds if we look at books and changes in the games, so the night elf community should reconsider certain things. Go knock yourself out in the Temple.

QFT: if Malfurion himself, who is like 'The' druid, allows magic users and Highborne in Kalimdor territory and in Darnassus itself, I see very little reason to show so much bigotry from the higher ups in Elven society. The occasional bigot/hater is fine, but not the society as a whole. Besides, I think something should be counted: the night elven society is relatively young, regarding their people. It survived, to them practically one-two generations of night elves. It's really hard to believe that in such a relative short time(think around 50 years for irl human societies) traditions would have settled as something unbreakable and sacred or not negotiable at all.

On a side note, a little point of advise: never ever question the reasoning behind other people's chars and actions. You can't know what made them take it, and most likely you don't know their whole story. Just accept things as they go.

Dréfurion wrote:My take on this is that the Kaldorei community dwells in the past far too much. They go off a stereotype that was created as a quick and easy understanding of Night Elfs, that is they hate magic demons and everything unnatural combined with being aggressive and militant, and still cling to that today. It's on this stereotype that people base the claim that Dks wouldn't be allowed in the Temple, not on any actual source from what I've experienced.

Personally I don't even think the stereotype holds if we look at books and changes in the games, so the night elf community should reconsider certain things. Go knock yourself out in the Temple.

Can't speak for the temple but i've ICly been escorted out of Darnassus by Thondalar truly. While I have nothing against that (Some say I should have been shot on sight, mis-communication happens) I have to agree on the stereotypes is becoming a bit far too... Much in this day and age of things developing. Death knights are a part of the alliance(Or horde). Though in saying that I think most of it is only enforced by Nature's Grasp being the prime Night Elf guild in this day and age far from the older generation ones like Nightseeker sentinals(lol faye). How they approach this whole issue is how they will handle it, but they do not have the rule of thumb to stop people from entering alliance territory, a temple? Debatable.

So nevermind the temple. I hit a brick wall just from elven RP'ers from even being in Darnassus. Not complaining about that bit but disagreeing on the fact of alliance members being kicked out of alliance alliegance territories based on the stereotype I think still sticks to many Kaldorei RPers.

False: Gilneans have warlocks and their trainer is right under the Howling Oak, and the Sentinels lead you to him. Not saying they like it, but it would have been way easy just to make him stay outside in Rut'Theran.

Oh and that yes.

TLDR: Thondalar is cool but stereotypes is a bit strong in the night elf RPing society comming from an outsider with brief observation who never dwells in elven RP apart from Tachal's lovehandles. But don't stop hating me ICly. I love it.

I know on DB, at least, the elves will shit every brick if you tried to bring a DK to Moonglade, for example (the SEAT of nature's purity and so on), unless it's for a public festival and even then they may force them to leave.

I think it's perfectly within lore for them to freak out, I'd take it IC for the characters involved. It makes for good RP/character development with the DKs trying to redeem themselves and being shut down by traditionalists spitting at them, imo!

The only issue I can see (and it'd need to be worked out between the involved guilds, I imagine) is if you have one guild saying that DKs are okay in the temple, aiding you along, then a -separate- group coming in and saying U R NT ALLOWD K. Issue being if either is claiming to represent Darnassus, officials, official opinions and so on, then it will clash in the RP.

I'm not sure you guys really understand what NElves were like just 10 years prior. A lot has changed but that was a necessary change. The NElves needed the Alliance and only built trust out of that necessity. It has only been a few years since the Death Knights were accepted into the Alliance and considering how protective of Teldrassil (and other NElf lands) the Kaldorei are, it's safe to assume that they wouldn't suddenly be the all welcoming type - that's extremely out of character for the way they have been portrayed. High end characters like Tyrande may accept them, but that's because she has been on the front line and has the potential to have spent a lot of time around them.

Kaldorei have always been suspicious and paranoid of others. I actually find the Kaldorei rpers that look down upon Humans build a better atmosphere, let alone DKs. Darnassus would have plenty of Kaldorei who tend to the tree and don't go into combat, why wouldn't they be peeved if a DK comes into their holy grounds?

Trouble is when you get one guild on a server for any race then that guild are likely to set the tone for the whole race. For humans it doesnt matter if there is a guild of zealots as the rest will equalise this. If the only SW guild was zealot however then there is a problem of all human RPers are not in tune with their own lore, it can lead to disconnection in RP.

My DK was thrown out of Darnassus even though he had been there a year due to one sentinal who even went so far to shoot him. In SW you can always get such situations handled (mostly farly) and in a way that mostly fits the lore of the race. In one guild cities this process is not going to occure.

ng is quite diverse actually loads of conservative elves and loads of hippies

personally i dont see a dk being allowed into the temple theyre innately evil!!!!! plus they go against one of the biggest night elf beliefs: the balance of nature

As it stands Shae, you're a desecration to any lawful nature than any other DK can only hope to tread over.

A DK is not innately evil.

Feral / Blackfall wrote:I know on DB, at least, the elves will shit every brick if you tried to bring a DK to Moonglade, for example (the SEAT of nature's purity and so on), unless it's for a public festival and even then they may force them to leave.

I think it's perfectly within lore for them to freak out, I'd take it IC for the characters involved.  It makes for good RP/character development with the DKs trying to redeem themselves and being shut down by traditionalists spitting at them, imo!

The only issue I can see (and it'd need to be worked out between the involved guilds, I imagine) is if you have one guild saying that DKs are okay in the temple, aiding you along, then a -separate- group coming in and saying U R NT ALLOWD K.  Issue being if either is claiming to represent Darnassus, officials, official opinions and so on, then it will clash in the RP.

I always take things ICly. It's fun, and okay. Issue is that, imho, over actual 'rules'/laws, considering the actual state of lore shouldn't be managed by single people representing officials, or even a single group. I'm okay with the single member, or even rep of that group coming in and saying 'I don't want you here because blabla', but it remains the view of a single group, say Nature's Grasp instead of the Darnassus government. Arkil comes along and throws me out? Fine, but I will read it as a Nature's Grasp issue, not as something issued by Malfurion or Shandris.

On a side note, said thing I would tell towards IF Senate and SW Councilas well, as you all know.

TL:DR: Don't claim to be the actual leaders/enforcers(a mistake I made myself, but wasn't given much choice on the matter) under the actual ones and, most importantly remember that your authority goes as far as your fellow roleplayers allow it to go.

Vaell wrote: High end characters like Tyrande may accept them, but that's because she has been on the front line and has the potential to have spent a lot of time around them.

As most of the military of the night elves: and considering the situation, it's terribly hard to think that at least any family hasn't a member involved in it in the years of war. In recent lore night elves are being seen way less reclusive, to the point of allowing gnomish machines in Darnassus and organizing the meeting for all the Alliance at the start of Cataclysm. Not to mention the fact that Tyrande gets practically ignored and roughly treated by Varian(A Little Patience). I don't like the way she was handled, but that's the lore we're given and we must work with. Varian leads the Alliance, and clearly most Kaldorei and sure their higher ups have accepted that.

Vaell wrote:Kaldorei have always been suspicious and paranoid of others. I actually find the Kaldorei rpers that look down upon Humans build a better atmosphere, let alone DKs. Darnassus would have plenty of Kaldorei who tend to the tree and don't go into combat, why wouldn't they be peeved if a DK comes into their holy grounds?

Be peeved it's fine. To say that they would legally force you out, nope, considering all the hints(In-game and in novels) point at the other direction. (Something that, oddly, never happened to me, despite being  there quite blatantly both in Moonglade and Darnassus on my dk quite a few times. But Dec's a nice respectful puppy)

And, what Lexgrad says. If there were more Night Elf guilds(or Nature's Grasp was way huger and differentiated, as in IC noticeably so) the issue wouldn't be so evident. Being though the rp in Darnassus almost completely tied to them though, it must be ensured thar or 1)They rp night elves in a way which doesn't create disconnections with the various understandings of the lore, or, 2)they play exclusively as for themselves and their chars, and not pretending to represent the night elves' society as a whole.

Difference with SW Council is it is not one guild and Human RP is not one guild, as an alloy of different views and thoughts the SW council is the only Council that could claim that legitimacy really imo.

That said exile is the worst sanction that you can suffer in RP, it shouldnt be used so lightly imo either.

every night elf guild that has ever existed that i know of has never accepted death knights so why you guys keep mentioning NG is silly, this has nothing to do with ng. the actions of a few characters in NG does not represent the view of the majority of characters within the guild so talking about NG as a collective whole influencing darnassus rp is weird

also, just during the last expac the poor little highborne guy was treated like utter crap and wasnt allowed into the temple, so i really doubt theyre going to just let dks in to use the temple as a roman bath house ... one of the quests in dragonblight shows that moonwell water does indeed kill undead things and very easily too so why a dk would want to become susceptible to that is also strange to fathom!!!!!

the reason it probably appears that ng is so anti-dk is just that characters that are anti-dk are very vocal about it and proactive, whereas those that dont care, dont care so you dont hear about them. and pro-dk people just dont exist lol

The problem becomes when they start to make decrees about things without backing of lore. I understand and endorse the Night Elven dislike (or hate) of DKs, but they don't have any grounds to ban people from coming anywhere. Especially not just Darnassus itself. They might try to prevent it, scowl, call names, keep their eyes in angry stares on them, but they cannot truly prevent anyone from going in the Temple or do it of as lore-breaking.