Lore, Meta-gaming, and Inter-guild RP.

As for Dire Maul goes, as far as I've played it in the past, I've gone with both. I treat there as being a good-sized chunk of highborne remaining, but that they don't fill out every single part of the city. Ogres control other parts, some might be completely empty, etc.

So if someone wants to use an area as a little hideout, and RP that it's abandoned and empty, then nothing wrong with that. As long as they RP it as just that little area being abandoned and empty, rather than the entire city, then there doesn't seem to be a problem, IMO.

I was curious and hoping you would share your opinion on the lore matter at hand, Drustai ^^

Raene wrote:Which is the stance I'm taking when it comes to official stand points on this. Whilst I personally side with Lexadins link that says the Shen'dralar are there, and players in Natures Grasp have always kept the ideal that the Shen'dralar are there, I also accept that some players might not RP as the Shen'dralar as being there. That being said, when players confirm that their own Shen'dralar characters are there, it's hard to refute that.

Ah no that is not my point, whether there are Highborne there or not is not what is under debate, you claim to operate under the assumption that the city is operational and under elf rule of law. It is that to which I would disagree with, if there are highborne in the city they will be keeping their heads down.

Just to make it all clear for me personally, I'll try to summarise it, please say if I missed something:

1. Guild X uses Dire Maul and ignores the npc elves.: You believe this is too much lore rape and shouldn't happen?

2. Once Guild X is gone, Guild Y comes to Diremaul and does an event there using magic and ignores potential npc elves there, you believe this is lore rape and shouldn't happen?


Point Three: Your "Player lore" Is subverted for another guilds Own Lore, and that is simply unacceptable?

Point Four: People are trying to force themselves into your plot-line in a way you don't appreciate, and you'd like them to be considerate. You are open to have people participate, but by adhering to your rules, since its your plot?

Do you consider this summary accurate, or did I miss a point?

Regarding Dire Maul itself--I think there's a reason Eldre'thalas has become "Dire Maul." It's ruins, an archaeology site even. There is a section standing where Highborne still reside; however if they had full control over the entire ruined city, there would likely not be sections overrun by demons (despite having used a captive one, I would presume they're still mainly anti-demon considering the Legion invasion there!), ogres, etc. As far as I'd see, they hold a section in the west of the ruined city, and everywhere else--including the coliseum which has been used as an arena both in-game and in comics, as mentioned--is likely out of control. As far as I've read, it's a cultist base in lore, I mean, the Twilight's Hammer was even there briefly was it not?

It's also very hard to get others to acknowledge NPC presence if they have no forewarning. It is an issue if the first guild has been stationed in the area for months IC, before your guild's arrival, which is the case--not at all saying GUILD X LAYS CLAIM, just that to turn up and claim an NPC presence is asking them to retcon quite a bit of RP. That said, the fellow in your second point--regarding spy work and the like--well, when you're claiming to get intel through spies, it's always a good idea to discuss that in advance if the spying was offscreen, otherwise it is just a poor IC shoehorn--as you put it--for metagamed information.

I believe ICly you handled it admirably, mind. The help would never have been ICly welcomed in this case, under those circumstances, and the guy was told as much, so I can't see it becoming an OOC issue.

Honestly I didn't think much of it oocly, didn't seem to be much drama about to ruin the RP, which I found quite fun. Even the spy's rejection IC made for interesting RP (though I felt bad for the guy OOCly xD ).

What's this...no arguments?
...I feel faint.

The elves (as I see) are holed up, in hiding, poring over books and reading their days away. Locked away magically (for the main) in a library. They're a shadow of their previous power and a small number.

The ruin of Dire Maul (I assume the city in it's prime was supposed to be pretty huge?) is an ogre pit, a mess, and a dump. Certainly not in control of the elves. Probably not in direct control of the ogres. But swarmed with them and other beasties.

A great place for RP though (as either the place itself or as an interesting piece of in-game scenery).

I'm maybe confused as to the point of this thread. So I second Amaryl's query.

I'm curious on the "Other guilds". You mentioned metagame into somewhere and then mentioning random guilds in it. I overheard that that person "Represented" some guilds.. Which i'm guessing in a Lie (OOC or IC *shrug*), but someone forgot which guild the person himself was in anyhow.

So are all the X Y Z guilds really at fault or just been some misunderstanding that people suddenly forgot logic and just hit the rage button for every name mentioned?

For the lore i think others stated stuff.

Personally i have only seen some ruins being used in Feralas, though that was talked with the nelfs ICly and OOCly or least mentioned.

I'm going to keep using the names Guild X, Y, etc to avoid naming and shaming people. Those who can piece together the pieces, will no doubt figure out which guild is which, and which person is which based on what I've said, but that's for them to know, rather than people starting to gossip about each other about who said and did what.

1. Guild X uses Dire Maul and ignores the npc elves.: You believe this is too much lore rape and shouldn't happen?

In summary, yes. However, this was since addressed between ourselves and Guild X to make this lore bending work. Y'see, despite differences between ourselves and Guild X's interpretation of the lore, we still managed to find a way to make it work together just by discussing it. The Guild Y bit was the most aggravating part but that's your next point.

2. Once Guild X is gone, Guild Y comes to Diremaul and does an event there using magic and ignores potential npc elves there, you believe this is lore rape and shouldn't happen?

NPC and PC's. People were logged off, and standing player lore would dictate that people would be in that area that Guild Y walked into, and I believe that shouldn't have happened. Especially considering your point 3.

Point Three: Your "Player lore" Is subverted for another guilds Own Lore, and that is simply unacceptable?

Yes, Dire Maul was under the use of our Guild, and Guild X. Guild X was forced out of Dire Maul, Rather than attempting to join in with either ourselves or Guild X, Guild Y comes into Dire Maul, interacts with the clues of Guild X, and ourselves, doesn't inform either Guild of doing so, but continues to use whatever they've learned ICly. As Blackfall later points out;

regarding spy work and the like--well, when you're claiming to get intel through spies, it's always a good idea to discuss that in advance if the spying was offscreen, otherwise it is just a poor IC shoehorn--as you put it--for metagamed information

Point Four: People are trying to force themselves into your plot-line in a way you don't appreciate, and you'd like them to be considerate. You are open to have people participate, but by adhering to your rules, since its your plot?

It's not even about rules, but otherwise you are correct.

I, and the other storytellers here are open to outside influence and outside people trying to get into the story with their own methods. Trouncing over other people to get into this story is uncool, and that is the main reason me and a couple of others have taken offence to this.

@Feral

I'm not too sure where you got the Cultist/Twilight Hammer bit from to be completely honest, but you're right for the most part.

It's also very hard to get others to acknowledge NPC presence if they have no forewarning.

If you're talking about Server lore, then sure, I can understand, but standing Blizz lore? Ehhh... For the most part, I stand with the idea that a fair few of the Shen'dralar are still there. Even if they're not, the Dire Maul East dungeon still shows the Shen'dralar living there even after everything else has been killed, even if you yourselves don't believe Elves to be there. (Humorously, using the same logic someone in our guild said we should RP in the Firelands these days seeing as Ragnaros is dead and the area doesn't have any players ICly there). Even if, as Gruff pointed out, they're in their little hidey hole, they still need to come out for food or whatever. I don't see a lot of food stores nor running water so when people are out and about in Eldre'thalas and they see Guild X in the area I'd assume there's due reason to be alarmed, and that's the reasoning we used when it came to incorporating Guild X's lore into our need to use Eldre'thalas.

Still, that's the reason Guild X and ourselves are RPing now, seeing as their paths have crossed and their lore has been blended together. There was no need to retcon any RP (despite some people complaining that the RP shouldn't have happened in the first place) and through discussion, we worked this out.

With Guild Y, or the "representative" of Guild Y, using Dire Maul and the remnants of a battle between Guild X and ourselves, without contacting either of us is where most of this issue lays, as you later go on to say.

And no, the RP we've had, despite what COULD have happened, has been relatively un-altered. The implications and future problems the RP COULD have had would have been disastrous. I do not know whether it was because of the original dismissal of the IC representative, or the result of this bitchy thread but considering this representative said he spoke on behalf of three guilds OOCly, nobody and nothing has come forward.

@Gruff

I'm maybe confused as to the point of this thread.

It's to have an open conference between the members of all 5 guilds involved, so everyone can post their thoughts, have a discussion, and see where it goes rather than everyone stepping on each others toes. 3 out of 5 guilds so far have responded.

@Sieg

I overheard that that person "Represented" some guilds.. Which i'm guessing in a Lie (OOC or IC *shrug*)

Person Q, from Guild Y came to Feralas, right into the heart of Feathermoon Stronghold and not only knew the presence of the Night Elves there, but the fact that they'd had a battle in Dire Maul, and that they knew Guild X was in Feralas due to magical magic stuff they'd done in Dire Maul, despite us having IC people in the area who would have noted such a thing (and more than likely killed the DK in question for being in the area after Guild X leaving that said area).

Guild X, had some faults.

Person Q, of Guild Y had a few faults that when we tried to address them, he raised up the names of two other guilds and said that if he revealed how he knew certain information even through an OOC channel then it would ruin the plots of Guild Y, and two other Guilds he mentioned, leading us to believe that Guilds W, and Z also had a stake in this debacle and ultimately that's what lead to this thread. I do know the names of Guilds W, X, Y, and Z, and the name of Person Q as well as his affiliation with Guild Y.

Clearly you must know that the Freelancers are Guild W, one of the Guilds that Person Q had mentioned in an OOC chat. Considering that I've not heard of you talking to any Nelves or to Guild X, and the fact that you said that it may well have been a lie, you deny any involvement whatsoever in this? If so, that's completely fine. If you do have some involvement, I'd much prefer it if you talked with us to try and make whatever you've got planned work with us, rather than having us step on your toes and vice versa.

Personally i have only seen some ruins being used in Feralas, though that was talked with the nelfs ICly and OOCly or least mentioned.

If it has been mentioned, I've not heard it. Now I'm no Officer of NG, I'm just a storyteller, but when all of this was being discussed across the Guild in a NG Skype chat, nobody came forward to say "Oh yeah, I remember this being discussed with me at one point", so as far as I know, no. The Nelves weren't told anything.

Edit:

@Erwt What about our PC's that would be there? Look, I know you like your happy world where people can do what they want, and usually I agree with you, but in this instance I don't.

@Dru - Which is exactly how we ICly responded when it was mentioned. Still, if this becomes an issue for whatever reason between whatever factions turn up to the Council then we'll have a problem, even if the Stormwind Council don't have any power in Kalimdor. IC Grumblings are acceptable and understandable, but if person Q gets a hard on for NG for snubbing him and starts being a tool OOCly about us, then that's where my problem lies.

@Lex

you claim to operate under the assumption that the city is operational and under elf rule of law.

Yes, yes I do. It wasn't like this until Tuesday however, when NG came in and laid the law down in that place. For now, ICly, the player lore holds that NG have the area, the Gordunni have been forced out, and until NG leaves Feralas, we'll continue to hold and operate in that area until further notice. I understand if some people miss this memo that NG are in there, but it's not the case of not understanding some player lore when they're interacting with things that NG have caused/done, and not telling NG about it. That's either blissful ignorance, selective understanding, or blatant metagaming.

Raene wrote:I'm going to keep using the names Guild X, Y, etc to avoid naming and shaming people. Those who can piece together the pieces, will no doubt figure out which guild is which, and which person is which based on what I've said, but that's for them to know, rather than people starting to gossip about each other about who said and did what.

I'm maybe confused as to the point of this thread.

It's to have an open conference between the members of all 5 guilds involved, so everyone can post their thoughts, have a discussion, and see where it goes rather than everyone stepping on each others toes. 3 out of 5 guilds so far have responded.

You know, people are going to make guesses from what they know and gossip anyway (and they have, from the very second it was posted). Besides from your second post, people will find out along the way no matter if you do or not. Or maybe you should have chosen a less open place to do it.

Freelancers are not involved, contrary to what a lot of people think. The very little we did in Feralas was elsewhere, and was discussed with the elves. Otherwise, you could always ask any of our officers if we know what is going down or not.

As for general opinion of this thread? All the letters and points have me a little confused, but from what it says it seems like three guilds going a little past eachother on the point of what they are doing there. When it comes to Blizz lore, it has already been proven that it's very easy to have different opinions on what goes on there, and I can't really say so far that I think once theory is more right than the other in that argument. Someone believing the place wouldn't have NPC elves wouldn't be making a terrible crime.

As for PC elves... well they might not have any idea of that either, nor that there was any reason to ask. How the arguments were then handled could be a different case, but I have no clue how that went.

Ahh, regarding NPC presence I think (I was tired and could be wrong) I meant the guards left behind. It's hard to know sometimes what is somewhere IC without being told, and finding out later is very "whoops" (I've run into a DM'd event after having walked through the guild's invisible field of NPC undead enemies, whoops indeed.)

And Twilight's Hammer I believe was there in the Cataclysm pre-launch? I could be entirely wrong, but I think I remember the Cho-gall prefight itself taking there. The sort of... event thingy? If that's considered lore.

Well then, if NG hold it then NG can IC "try" to police it and deal with the other guilds, it is RP and everything is up for play. Who are these NPCs though? NG npcs, sentinals, Highborne? There isnt one elf npc in the top of the city.

This is sounding like something completely different now though I thought this was about two different understandings of lore, now it seems to be an RP malfunction?

As Allonia said more or less. The event was a one day thing after the Ball in Stormwind and a day before TB i think and wasn't a really big thing (Though i think some were later called to be talked with and some more, but i can't remember). So to be fair you should ask people, not expect them to come forward all the time, i'm sure it could have been settled OOCly by talking to GMs of said guilds and asking them, or the GM of this Q person.

"so as far as I know, no. The Nelves weren't told anything." Sounds silly considering this thread is somewhat related to people stumbling on events not knowing what they walk on. But just saying.

BUT THE POINT!

Since from what i see the Q made the most QQ, so of course he seems to be the main issue in all of this, so Y wasn't it kept between GM of guild Y (Or a officer of them). Just my thoughts.

if NG hold it then NG can IC "try" to police it and deal with the other guilds

Sorry for being Human and working/sleeping/eating etc. Look, despite the fact that NG are there IC with PCs and NPCs, it's besides the point of what we're getting at here. It's as you said, an RP malfunction where a guy has come in, used some stuff of NG and Guild X without telling either of us, then used Guilds W, Y, and Z as cover. I'm not here to point fingers, and RP castrate people. I want to find out what people want to do, what's going on, and how we can make this all work.

@sieg

people stumbling on events not knowing what they walk on

No, that's not what it's about at all. /headdesk. I've said it multiple times now, that people DO know what they're standing on through information they shouldn't have. If it was just a mistake, I wouldn't have included the word Metagaming in the title of this thread.

so Y wasn't it kept between GM of guild Y

Read what I said to Lex, that's relevant to what I'm about to say here.

Y it wasn't kept between Guild Officers only is because I for one refuse to act as a middle-man between 5 guilds when I can just make a topic here that all 5 guilds can see and respond to, and get a judgement of where we're at and what the future may hold.

Even if you disagree with this thread, you've done exactly what I've wanted. You've come in here, clarified your standpoint, clarified where you are, and clarified where your future is headed. Great stuff! That's all I wanted, and needed. Thanks for being a great help and clearing some things up, you're a star. Even Guild X has come in here to clear some stuff up, and we're grateful. Now if only Guild Y and Z would pop their heads in, this thread could be locked, but I'll give it a couple more days before I request that lock seeing as this thread was only posted yesterday.

@Allonia

You know, people are going to make guesses from what they know and gossip anyway

And that's not my problem. I've laid out my grievances that needed to be laid out, and if people want to point the finger at each other and complain about the standards of any guild or person here (including myself) then that's up to them. I for one refuse to be a part of that.

As for your other thing, about Elves not being there, not being a serious crime I'm in agreement. Of all things considered, it's the least of our issues. Okay, our theory was not the same as another guilds theory, but rather than winning out over who's guild theory has the most credibility we just found a way to make it work to both our benefit. It was a very slight bump in the road, but we sorted it.