Lore, Meta-gaming, and Inter-guild RP.

I have so many things to say right now DefiasRP that if I was to explain all of my feelings in absolute depth, it would only come out as an inarticulate sneeze of verbal diarrhoea so I'm going to try and keep this as concise as possible. Before I start, here's a disclaimer, I do not speak on behalf of Natures Grasp, and this is purely my own personal feelings on this matter.

Lore. Mild cases of lore-breakage I can understand and forgive. Even extreme cases of Lore-breakage with a good explanation is A-Okay with me. What I'm not okay with, is when people completely disregard standing lore about certain things in favour of their easy-peasy RP.

Eldre'thalas, AKA Dire Maul, is not an abandoned playground for X, Y, and Z guilds to just jump in and use as their play ground. You wouldn't take the crown room of Varian as the colloseum for your secret training days, nor would you enter the Crown Room after a big attack in there to pursue a goal for your own needs without meeting resistance. Two instances I want to bring up here that I would like explanations for.

1) Group X, decided to take the home of the Highborne Magi who don't reside in Darnassus and make it their training grounds. What happened to the Eldre'thalas Elves who remain in Eldre'thalas? Sorry, that's completely disregarding Blizzard Lore.

2) After Group X, and the Eldre'thalas, Darnassus, and Feathermoon Elves collide, Group X is sent packing. Why does Group Y immediately assume it's okay to step into the site of the battle (Clearly still an Elven controlled territory) and do an un-sanctioned search of the area for clues that will aid his/her guilds RP without telling either Guild that was actually involved in the fight? Sorry, you've just stepped into an area that's important to two guilds right there and completely disregarded their player Lore.

Speaking of Inter-Guild RP. I'm all for it. But not when you're metagaming your way into plots, happenings, and storylines that have nothing to do with you, then forcing people to disregard their standing player Lore in favour of your clearly superior Guild Agenda. I'm sorry, Group Y bringing Argent Spies into Feralas, the Night Elves station for the largest force of their Army? Sneaking around under their nose without them spotting you, so you know of all of another Guilds actions without forewarning them what you're doing? In my eyes that is tantamount to power-playing, or very strong metagaming as you hand-wave away your lack of knowledge with unseen spies. Combine this with warnings of "Betraying the Alliance" and "Reporting us to the Stormwind Council", and it just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Look, bring your IC grumblings wherever, but I swear to Elune that if this becomes a giant OOC shit storm for the reason that I haven't shoe horned you into my plot and storyline, and that you want to force your way into my RP and change it solely for your benefit then I'm just going to start ignoring people.

It's just going into a rant right about now and lacking any consistency other than name calling, shaming, and flame-baiting. I've covered everything I wanted to. Metagaming, Inter-Guild RP, Lore and how it has effects on people, and anymore ranting now is just a waste.

It's not like I want you guys out of my RP. If anything, I'd say I've advertised several times and several places just to get it out there that I'm looking for willing volunteers to join in with the RP

What I don't like, is when our RP has to constantly shift and change to accomodate all these outside factors that have no real reason to even influence our RP. It makes it troubling for me as a Storyteller, and it makes it annoying for those trying to create a story for people to enjoy when the story is having to constantly deviate from its intended path just to accomodate these outside factors. I wouldn't have minded so much but when we try and accomodate these people who force themselves into our RP, they suddenly become very non co-operative when we're trying to find ways to make the RP work. It's like they erected a barrier when their BS was called out, and refused to co-operate to make it work.

If you want to join in, let me know! Let others know! Don't just assume because you turn up IC that we'll accept whatever you bring, because RP is a two way street, and it does not work just in your favour.

Edit: The reason this has been brought to the forums, instead of taken to personal messages, is because it's too large for one 'chat'.

There are at least 5 guilds involved in this plot now, in what started as a just two guild RP plot.

I don't think this is a very general topic, it seems more to do with a certain bad experience so I can't say anything on that matter...

For the first bit, regarding Dire Maul - you can use it if you're not claiming that it is actually Dire Maul (if you're hoping for it to be empty, that is). I'm sure the WoWverse has plenty more areas that are similar and just because you're in one area, doesn't mean you can't pretend you're in a totally different one.

E.G. Lakeshire could become just another Redridge town because of how few RPers spend time there. This isn't altering lore, it's accomodating for the lack of areas due to game mechanics. Redridge isn't a 10 minute horse ride big - we know from how long it took people to travel in the strategy games that areas are much bigger than they are in game.

I don't think this is a very general topic, it seems more to do with a certain bad experience so I can't say anything on that matter...

You're right, but the amount of people involved deserve to have their own say on the matter. It's like having a chat about Dwarven RP in Ironforge or Forsaken RP in Lordaeron. It's a very specialised thread for a select few people who are currently tied together.

To be honest, I think a lot of people that are not well versed in night elf lore probably think Dire Maul -is- empty. I can say I for one did, I just presumed it was an abandoned elf city infested with ogres, as it is in game.

I had no idea their were still Kaldorei living there. Best thing I can say is actually talk to those you have an issue with and tell them as such.

EDIT : Just saw the second part of what you said, in my opinion if people are not willing to co-operate with you then any role play with them probably isn't going to be that enjoyable anyway.

If you do not want to roleplay with other guilds and people then simply keep your plots private, I cant imagine it being that hard.

"Reporting us to the Stormwind Council",

Also there are less experienced roleplayers about, and it can be quite daunting to just whisper people and ask if you can get involved because people feel they'll most likely get rejected. RP is a two-way street yes but if you are clearly more experienced you can go out of your way to talk to the people trying to get involved, if they refuse to respect your storyline/rp/whatever you just zone them out

Samian, you completely missed the point of my post... For that I can only sigh.

If you do not want to roleplay with other guilds and people then simply keep your plots private, I cant imagine it being that hard.

To which I say re-read my post, and take a look at where I've been trying to get people to officially join in on the RP, rather than just steamroll their way into someone elses RP and crush other people in the process.

Also there are less experienced roleplayers about, and it can be quite daunting to just whisper people and ask if you can get involved because people feel they'll most likely get rejected.

These are Guilds. Established Guilds. Not some Newbies that need molly coddling and their hands holding. They're big boys, they can look after themselves. As highlighted in my post.

you can go out of your way to talk to the people trying to get involved

Which we have, to varying degrees of success. As highlighted in my post.

hmmmm, im a fan of not using lore places as what they are really. If it is "nelf ruins" then you can do what you like. As for Argents, they are demon hunters too, who can say why they are there... do you know raene?

In lore afaik it is safe to call it ogre land as they are in 95% of the area.

Were they RPing it as Dire Maul or a random ruin?

Belserden / Anivitas wrote:To be honest, I think a lot of people that are not well versed in night elf lore probably think Dire Maul -is- empty. I can say I for one did, I just presumed it was an abandoned elf city infested with ogres, as it is in game.

Wait... It's not?

XD There are highborne in the last instance Deli, you gank their leader. It is lore that is like vanilla though afaik. Very out of date.

I know what's INSIDE. But those guys seem pretty evil for the most part, seeing as how you kill them and all. Or are we referring to quest givers as "residents" now?

I think as far as lore goes its a ogre infested ruin with some highborne in it.

I mean, ogres are present ingame and one of the comic presents it as a spot for gladiator fights.. which doesn't seem to much like Nelf business.

As of Cataclysm, it's still accurate. Eldre'thalas is occupied by the Eldre'thalas Elves surprisingly enough.

To get the Title "Insane in the Membrane", you need to increase your rep with the Eldre'thalas survivors, who weren't as evil/corrupted as their leader was. Highborne have always been douches though.

As for the Gordunni Ogres, they're a threat all over Feralas, and both the Horde and Alliance thin their numbers regularly enough.

And Vaell, yes, they were using it ICly as Dire Maul. The first Guild, Guild X. They weren't aware of the Eldre'thalas Elves there, but we compensated by having our Highborne Magi in the guild report cultists encroaching on the territory. What irked us the most was that despite making excuses for one guild, a second guild then came along to the site of the battle (The middle of Dire Maul) and took clues and magical scans from the area. As if the Night Elves wouldn't have put up additional defenses since Guild X left and wanting to secure the region properly.

Well not to sound like a d-bag r nothing... can you source that lore? I am sure the city is not now another nelf city, but would be happy to be wrong.

Lexgrad wrote:Well not to sound like a d-bag r nothing... can you source that lore? I am sure the city is not now another nelf city, but would be happy to be wrong.

Yeah, I'm afraid that the ogres do still have the strongest presence, holding the majority of the outside grounds by the looks of Dire Maul. Though their king is dead, they follow a new king and should probably still be considered to have a lot of control over the area.

I'm pretty sure the comic with Varian going to Dire Maul came out just before Cata as well and in that, the place was full of gladiatorial events/slave dealers etc.

Raene wrote:Samian, you completely missed the point of my post... For that I can only sigh.

If you do not want to roleplay with other guilds and people then simply keep your plots private, I cant imagine it being that hard.

To which I say re-read my post, and take a look at where I've been trying to get people to officially join in on the RP, rather than just steamroll their way into someone elses RP and crush other people in the process.

Also there are less experienced roleplayers about, and it can be quite daunting to just whisper people and ask if you can get involved because people feel they'll most likely get rejected.

These are Guilds. Established Guilds. Not some Newbies that need molly coddling and their hands holding. They're big boys, they can look after themselves. As highlighted in my post.

you can go out of your way to talk to the people trying to get involved

Which we have, to varying degrees of success. As highlighted in my post.

The point of your post is overcomplicating a matter, which you. As obvious big boy rper should stand above.

These are Guilds. Established Guilds. Not some Newbies that need molly coddling and their hands holding. They're big boys, they can look after themselves. As highlighted in my post.

A guild tag is no assurance that people know what they are doing, it simply means they've grouped up and probably have the same twisted awful view on roleplay

I've been trying to get people to officially join in on the RP, rather than just steamroll their way into someone elses RP and crush other people in the process.

Unless you are going to keep these invited guilds busy 24/7 they are going to add their own stuff to the roleplay which might contradict with the plot you originally had in mind. As I said either zone them out or adapt, be above it.

You shouldnt limit people's roleplay even when their roleplay makes fuckall sense imo you just stay out of it rather then try to convince them they are doing it wrong. Because odds are they are rather convinced of their own plots and stories.

I cannot provide actual lore that outright states 100% that the Shen'dralar have not vacated Dire Maul. Nor can I also find lore that outright states 100% that the Shen'dralar have vacated Dire Maul.

All I can say, is that in Cataclysm a small envoy came to Tyrande around the time of the Shattering, and the Shen'dralar were accepted back into the folds of Elven society. However during the events in the book Wolfheart, only Eleven Shen'dralar actually occupy Teldrassil IIRC, meaning that only a small portion of them left Eldre'thalas

Spoiler:

.

Considering the abundance of Shen'dralar around Azeroth, in the Kirin Tor, in Darnassus, in the Battlefields. It's pretty safe to say that the Shen'dralar were quite relatively big in number, despite having a large portion killed during the Dungeon. Whilst you're right, it's not a bustling Nelf home, it's quite likely still the home for a large portion of the Shen'dralar Elves who continue their studies in their own sanctums, away from the glares of the Kaldorei who oppose their kind.

As for the Gordunni? It wouldn't be too surprising to learn they get a new King every week. I assume Regicide would be quite common amongst Ogres.

And as for Varian? Well, I appreciate his little Slave adventures may have taken him to Dire Maul, but considering there's next to no lore on the Crimson ring outside of this one event, and there's more updated lore for the Shen'dralar since Varian returned, I'm going to go with the most recently updated lore.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Shen%27dralar

Does not say alo about the city. My gut tells me it is as we see it, there are few highborne to hold the city and if a nelf army had gone in there we would know about it.

You see, I saw that too Lex...

My problem with it, despite the fact that it's Wowpediad, and it's pretty good knowledge...

It's not sourced. There's no reference to back it up, so therefore I refuse to call it 100% lore. Still, I believe it is this way, where some stay in the city, and it's exclusively the Night Elven Highborne (Shen'dralar).

I would disagree sir.

In the end neither can side can prove that one is right, and should accordingly be allowed to RP accordingly to what they personally believe.

Which is the stance I'm taking when it comes to official stand points on this. Whilst I personally side with Lexadins link that says the Shen'dralar are there, and players in Natures Grasp have always kept the ideal that the Shen'dralar are there, I also accept that some players might not RP as the Shen'dralar as being there. That being said, when players confirm that their own Shen'dralar characters are there, it's hard to refute that.

I don't know. If you go there in game, it shows what's there. That's a source.

Raene wrote:What irked us the most was that despite making excuses for one guild, a second guild then came along to the site of the battle (The middle of Dire Maul) and took clues and magical scans from the area. As if the Night Elves wouldn't have put up additional defenses since Guild X left and wanting to secure the region properly.

I think you should chill out and focus less on the things invisible NPC's that are supposed to be there would be doing, and let the player story breathe.

As far as I'm concerned those Elves are recluses that never come out of their little hiding places within the instanced parts of Dire Maul.

It's a fantastic location for a number of stories, just let those stories be told.

Raene wrote:Combine this with warnings of "Betraying the Alliance" and "Reporting us to the Stormwind Council", and it just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Look, bring your IC grumblings wherever, but I swear to Elune that if this becomes a giant OOC shit storm for the reason that I haven't shoe horned you into my plot and storyline, and that you want to force your way into my RP and change it solely for your benefit then I'm just going to start ignoring people.

Lol? What good would it do reporting to the Council when the Council has nothing to do with Feralas and Kalimdor? xD