Re: why nobody comes to DB

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Tue May 14, 2013 9:49 am

That being said, I personally feel there is more value in having it than not. When used properly, it provides structure. Structure is good for RP, because it unifies the community as well as creates an avenue for IC conflict. The issue isn't the organization. That's not the problem. It's just that it needs to be used responsibly.

I agree. I have no issues with structure or organization, issue is that it shouldn't be forced over roleplayers, especially considering that it can be considerably abused. In this sense the work that has been done lately to it, to ensure transparency and cooperation is commendable.

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Amaryl, the issue is a bit far wider than that. I speak for me personally, and it's a bit OT. I don't mind getting ganked, once or twice(in ganked I mean not the 90-90 fight, that's to me 'proper' PVP, usually, I mean the 90 who appears and one-shot you while you're less than 85). I do not crave for the 'fear of ganks', but at the same time I don't mind it. I ganked myself, it's not the issue. Issues are, imho, two:
1-Wow has really changed from Vanilla, with the addition of many PVP dedicated features, and the whole shit that is PVP power and resilience. The level of strength and the class imbalance can not allow ever for a proper fight one on one. Of course, this is terribly true when the levels, the toon levels, are terribly different.
2-Ganking per se it's not an issue. In PVP realms ganking should be allowed, I'm not minding that. But there's a difference between ganking("Hey, Ally/Horde here, let's put him down!") and allowing players to camp other players for hours and force them to log off the char to avoid it at all. With X-realm the thing has become even worse, and the whole 'But you can call riends to fight the ganker back' has fallen back, 'cause players won't suddenly leave whatever they're doing, rp, pve, leveling proffs or whatever, to just get to you in a leveling zone otherwise they'd never go to to help you. And that's honestly understandable. It's here though that the PVP policiy from Blizzard sucks greatly. Camping should not be allowed and rendered impossible through specific mechanics. Or something which makes the camped player unattackable after the 3rd-4th death, or a punishment for the camper, like for example the loss in rank or the loss of gold inversely proportional to the level of the player camped(as in, a 90 who kills repetitively a lvl 1 loses 1k gold, while for a 45 only 500). Just some ideas thrown there. As I said, I don't mind fighting for nodes or quest mobs: that's okay because typically it happens between people of more or less the same level range. And I don't mind ganking. I mind endless camping.

And, back IT, it's no wonder that endless camping is detrimental to rp, at least as it is intended by many rpers. I'm for full or almost full immersion. I go always with the flow, even if I see things that in the back of my mind I know are a bit on the edge of lore or even proper roleplay. But I feel like sometimes I'm the only one. Some other times, I'm sure of that.

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Thanks Cid! Smile

*bow*

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Vaell,

As lovely as your post is, you're not entirely correct.

Two points:
- Many RPers I've known and I've only been on the server for 2 years, have left the game altogether.
- AD has a lot more issues because of its size. Quantity isn't always the best. I've struggled to get a foothold on there and I'm an extremely social RPer. The random RP is shit. That isn't me being elitist, it's me having awful experiences.
- People move over because of the quantity. AD has always had a high pop from my knowledge and when a few people go, more will follow because they're their friends. It's not because each of these people have made a sudden decision to hate DB, they follow the pack because they fear being left on a server that is dying.

0)I'm happy I write lovely posts!
1)Of course. As I said, it's my vision of things, shared not oly by me. I've seen some players leaving the game altogether, but it's useless to hide that many others moved to AD, which brings to the second point.
2)I've rped on AD for quite a while, and still do. Depends really on what breaks your immersion, and what you ask. I do not mind quality of rp, because it's really an undefinable thing and in the end just a matter of sensitivity. I do care for the quality of my rp, but that's all. Rp is a social activity, and I stopped bothering for it's quality long ago, when I got everybody's definition of quality is different from one another.
3)I agree there, and that's a bit obvious. Still doesn't mean we can't cater to those people who prefer a better 'quality'(whatever we want to mean with it) or just a more close-knit community. I am all for more people coming in, which means more chars, more stories and more ideas.

As a personal point I want to underline once more, though: friends are the reason why I'm still on a 50-50 regime, after months of indecision. And the so called quality is the reason I'm gonna give an old project another try, the last one.

P.S. I should really get a letter count for my posts.

by **Amaryl** Tue May 14, 2013 10:42 am

Longknife/Decurius wrote:
That being said, I personally feel there is more value in having it than not. When used properly, it provides structure. Structure is good for RP, because it unifies the community as well as creates an avenue for IC conflict. The issue isn't the organization. That's not the problem. It's just that it needs to be used responsibly.

---
Amaryl, the issue is a bit far wider than that. I speak for me personally, and it's a bit OT. I don't mind getting ganked, once or twice(in ganked I mean not the 90-90 fight, that's to me 'proper' PVP, usually, I mean the 90 who appears and one-shot you while you're less than 85). I do not crave for the 'fear of ganks', but at the same time I don't mind it. I ganked myself, it's not the issue. Issues are, imho, two:
1-Wow has really changed from Vanilla, with the addition of many PVP dedicated features, and the whole shit that is PVP power and resilience. The level of strength and the class imbalance can not allow ever for a proper fight one on one. Of course, this is terribly true when the levels, the toon levels, are terribly different.

Corpse-Camping was worse in Vanilla. You couldn't level in strangletorn vale without being corpse-camped. same with southshore. Pvp in vanilla wasn't balanced at all. You had no flying mounts to actually escape being corpse-camped. and The help a friend scenario didn't: work then either, because travel time was soo much longer. Add to that gear difference was far more painful in vanilla, mainly because to PvP you either had to: be 40 man raid equipped or spend 12 weeks PvPing in battlegrounds for 15 hours a day.

most people weren't even MC geared. so it only took 6-7 rogues to stop multiple 40 man raids from starting for hours on end. Understand this: you weren't able to PvE because a few rogues were preventing part of your raid to get to the instance.

Being camped and being prevented to play what you wanted, was a far bigger concern in Vanilla then it is now.

Now as a casual you can get pvp gear and be competitive. That is a -big- deal.

2-Ganking per se it's not an issue. In PVP realms ganking should be allowed, I'm not minding that. But there's a difference between ganking("Hey, Ally/Horde here, let's put him down!") and allowing players to camp other players for hours and force them to log off the char to avoid it at all. With X-realm the thing has become even worse, and the whole 'But you can call riends to fight the ganker back' has fallen back, 'cause players won't suddenly leave whatever they're doing, rp, pve, leveling proffs or whatever, to just get to you in a leveling zone otherwise they'd never go to to help you. And that's honestly understandable. It's here though that the PVP policiy from Blizzard sucks greatly. Camping should not be allowed and rendered impossible through specific mechanics. Or something which makes the camped player unattackable after the 3rd-4th death, or a punishment for the camper, like for example the loss in rank or the loss of gold inversely proportional to the level of the player camped(as in, a 90 who kills repetitively a lvl 1 loses 1k gold, while for a 45 only 500). Just some ideas thrown there. As I said, I don't mind fighting for nodes or quest mobs: that's okay because typically it happens between people of more or less the same level range. And I don't mind ganking. I mind endless camping.

And, back IT, it's no wonder that endless camping is detrimental to rp, at least as it is intended by many rpers. I'm for full or almost full immersion. I go always with the flow, even if I see things that in the back of my mind I know are a bit on the edge of lore or even proper roleplay. But I feel like sometimes I'm the only one. Some other times, I'm sure of that.

being Corpse-camped sucks.

But the moment you get the ability to fly a flying mount, all you need is 3 seconds of not being attacked. which is damnwell posibble ress spam mount, fly away.
You didn't have that option as you'd be chased halfway across the zone in vanilla.

putting a penalty on pvp on a pvp realm is silly.

by **erwtenpeller** Tue May 14, 2013 10:52 am

Amaryl wrote:putting a penalty on pvp on a pvp realm is silly.

Agreed.

by **Muzjhath** Tue May 14, 2013 12:22 pm

Amaryl has down the things about PvP, ganking, and Corpse Camping.
Then and now.

It is obscene amounts of less hassle today than it used to be.
Back in vanilla I knew one person who could help me if a well geared person came. This was a raider in T2 gear. Who wasn't even in my guild and aviable far from often. No one in my guild, which was a fairly large thing with some 30-50 online during primetimes could really help if I got camped by a well geared player. Heroic geared, some with MC pieces. But in general nothing to cheer for.

Today, as long as you're 60+ and get camped? Mount up, fly off. Or just call an equally geared friend, you're bound to have one.

With the changes to Recilience and that new stat MoP brought I'd say it's more "fair" than ever.

As for "One vs one ballance" the whole concept is ludacris. Since if they were ballanced for that any group battle would just get messed up.

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Tue May 14, 2013 1:27 pm

putting a penalty on pvp on a pvp realm is silly.

Putting a penalty on players who make other players unable to play the game or their toon is silly? Not to mention feel miserable?
Really a max level player who ganks and corpse camps a level 30 for more than half an hour shouldn't face a penalty?

by **Muzjhath** Tue May 14, 2013 1:29 pm

Their lives are likely pathetic enough already.

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Tue May 14, 2013 1:33 pm

Muzjhath wrote:Their lives are likely pathetic enough already.

On that I could agree.

by **Amaryl** Tue May 14, 2013 1:36 pm

Longknife/Decurius wrote:
putting a penalty on pvp on a pvp realm is silly.
Putting a penalty on players who make other players unable to play the game or their toon is silly? Not to mention feel miserable?
Really a max level player who ganks and corpse camps a level 30 for more than half an hour shouldn't face a penalty?

Indeed.

As a levelling player on a server with the PvP rule-set that is the risk you accept.

You have to consider this though, the Max level player that CCs a lvl 30 for 30 minutes, doesn't gain anything either. He's basically wasting both your time.

Lastly, I believe you can crossrealm to a pve server when leveling if you really really want to be on a pvp-server. Or level solely through instances. You won't even have to leave the safe-zones(though this does take more time if you're not a healing or tanking class)

Edit: https://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/pvp-realm-policy

PvP Realm Policies
Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable" are considered legitimate PvP tactics and will not be addressed by our Game Master (GM) staff. Actions that fall into this category include, but are not limited to:

Corpse camping.
Tricking players into getting flagged for PvP (i.e. jumping in the middle of another player's area effect spell).
Killing players well below your level.

As I said, its a risk you accept when picking the server. Asking for penalties, means you chose the wrong server. (and that is okay, changing server will give you more enjoyment! and that's all anyone wants.)

by **Lexgrad** Tue May 14, 2013 3:23 pm

AD is good. If anyone ever wants to cross realm to lvl in peace or to find RP just giv me a yell.

by **erwtenpeller** Tue May 14, 2013 3:24 pm

It would be nice if you could zap alph over a couple of times. But it's going to happen in-character. Alternate reality magic ftw.

by **Lexgrad** Tue May 14, 2013 3:28 pm

call me

by **Vaell** Tue May 14, 2013 5:00 pm

erwtenpeller wrote:It would be nice if you could zap alph over a couple of times. But it's going to happen in-character. Alternate reality magic ftw.

Since watching Fringe, I've always considered this... Stepping into an alternative timeline AKA transferring ICly

by **erwtenpeller** Tue May 14, 2013 5:04 pm

It's a fantastically weird role-playing opportunity I intend to exploit.

by **Ataris** Wed May 15, 2013 9:25 am

Longknife/Decurius wrote:
erwtenpeller wrote:Long posts are what Raenmar craves!
Spoiler:

Well written post that I agree with pretty much 100%. I've been on DB since it's launch and recently moved all of my characters to AD, and I do not regret it any way, shape or form. I do miss certain people (shoutout to Melny, Skarain and Thelos in particular), but overall I am having a much more enjoyable experience.

In particular I think one of the major issues that DB has always suffered from is the RP elitism specifically. In my eyes personally it started with the Council and has lived on ever since. During my years on DB I watched some fucking disgusting behaviour from very well established people while playing my alts, from being blatantly ignored both IC and OOC to being told I cant attend events or RP because I am not known to their characters. I also saw quite a bit of favoritism when it comes to rules and moderation when I helped out on this forum, which was partly why I quit it.

The whole PVP point is a big thing for me too. In vanilla it worked fine and made leveling a lot more exciting. BC had SWP which was alright, but ever since it's turned from that into just pure griefing. People who want to quest in peace just fly off and avoid combat. People who can't take a fair fight fly off and avoid combat. The rest is spent being CCed by lvl 90s if you're underleveled. Not so much fun anymore. Especially with surfacing of guilds like ABoC and the fact that people even pick up a debate with them.

Flame bait. :3

by **Lexgrad** Wed May 15, 2013 2:12 pm

I have seen the dreadhowl on AD. Is that you too? Should make the Sphere there bro and hunt down the Antlions.

by **Ataris** Thu May 16, 2013 7:38 am

Yes, that is me and some of the old veterans from it. TDS is currently taken and I am working on getting it back.

by **Lexgrad** Thu May 16, 2013 3:52 pm

Poke me if/when you get the sphere up.

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