why nobody comes to DB

Not a bad idea. Half of my Battletag friends spend more time on AD then DB these days.

erwtenpeller wrote:Not a bad idea. Half of my Battletag friends spend more time on AD then DB these days.

*cough*And does anybody wonder why?*cough*

Because they're too lazy to fight for the quality of their realm, that's why!

erwtenpeller wrote:Because they're too lazy to fight for the quality of their realm, that's why!

*shrug* I won't start a loooong post about the sillyness of the whole 'quality of rp' topic. Still, I think it's way easy to point fingers to others instead of making some self criticism. And the DB rp community(of this forum and outside), with very few exceptions, has really huge issues with criticism, at all.

Long posts are what Raenmar craves!

AD is good, sure. But it's very messy. It's like eating soup with your fingers.

If every DBer could go on AD, it would be v good but for £15 a character - Blizzard can fuck right off.

I suggest we merge all the doom and gloom topics into one big tinfoil hat one :p (putting a smily here to indicate I'm teasingly joking)

If you think there are too few roleplayers on DB and you are also constantly weary of a bunch of WPvPers, why don't you go AD yourself?

Uh, because I don't think there are too few roleplayers on DB?

Didn't I spend 2 pages saying how things had improved, which Erwt denied and said there was in fact no improvement and everything was dead?

This question pops up in every Raenmar whine thread but never gets answered!

I answer it every time, you just continue ranting about how I'm whining and about DB #1 and shit.

There are ways to make DB more ‘competetive’ amongst other rping servers, sure. But raging against the fact that player numbers gradually fall is as pointless as raging against the tide.

But... I haven't raged. I haven't even whined. I don't even have an active sub, I don't give a fuck how many people are playing on DB.

I'm saying that DB could be a lot more if people took the time to give a simple, constructive reply so people actually know it's an active server.

And the DB rp community(of this forum and outside), with very few exceptions, has really huge issues with criticism, at all.

This so much. Sooooo much.

Raenmar wrote:Didn't I spend 2 pages saying how things had improved, which Erwt denied and said there was in fact no improvement and everything was dead?

I never said that. I don't have a problem with the server's activity, plenty of role-play to go around all over the place.

I said that a couple of forum posts do not make a big enough difference to the decline (or rise!) of the servers population to get worked up about.

Kittrina wrote:Raging on forums, especially constantly comparing yourself constantly with another rping realm, does nothing positive at all. In fact it makes the server look negative and unpleasant.

Thank you.

Allonia_Miral wrote:Here is something - if people don't like threads like these, the easiest solution is to just ignore it, until it silently drops off the frontpage all on its own... instead of making it yet another pointless 'twist-the-words' game, or a contest of who can make the wittiest troll response.

Because that only makes the place seem even more negative and unpleasant to me.

erwtenpeller wrote:Long posts are what Raenmar craves!

You looked for it!

The question on the thread title is, in my opinion, misleading. The server has been on high population until late, when it finally fell to ‘medium’, with some peaks of ‘high’ in the evenings. It is though clear that most of the population is not of rpers, but of PVPers and PVEers. It is crystal clear that most people who come or stay in DB are there for something completely unrelated to rp. Still some people are coming and have joined the community, even lately, for the roleplay. I like to think that the effort of advertising the rp on the server by Raenmar(yes, the one you just asked why he just doesn’t gtfo) and Skarain is somehow related to this. People come here, but aren’t enough to fill the holes left by people who leave and left the server.

The answer ertwenpeller gave is terribly lazy. And so it is the one given, in different ways, by Muzjath and Kittrina.
It’s easy to point fingers to those who leave and say:”They’re lazy, they’re bad rpers, they’re not worth, etc.” All these kind of answer have the same thing in common: they put the one telling them on the higher ground, relieving of any responsibility him and put the whole blame on those who leave, or an external source anyway. It’s easy to understand why such answer is favored instead of one in which there is some self criticism. Why instead of answering, for once, what do people who leave DB lack, don’t we try to answer what made those people leave? What are the server’s faults, as a rp community? What makes people leave, often forever?

In the late period we have seen many people leave the rp community, if not the server altogether. I asked some of them why, what brought them to make such a decision which is not an easy one. It is not an easy one because, unless you don’t move your toons from the server, which is costly per se (20 euros a toon, I guess no one in their right mind would spend so much money for more than one or two toons), you’ll have to reroll, starting to relevel your char from level 1, without heirlooms. Not to mention, if you enjoy some of the endgame content, the whole gearing up process which, if streamlined, it still takes time and effort. It is not easy also for the obvious ties which get severed in the moment you move. Sure, there are BTags and RIDs these days, but the guildies, the stories, the memories and the players are still back there. That’s the most difficult part. I asked those people, and myself when I did it, what made them took my decision. I can’t talk for others, so I’ll speak for myself. What made me take a difficult decision(at least from an in-game perspective: considering the very hard decisions most people have to face every day in their lives this is obviously laughable in comparison), which made me spend my hard earned money(moved one toon, and I’m not exactly the King of Lydia) and at the same time taking the time to level another one?

-PVP: I never liked PVP, especially the ‘random’ one, meaning random battlegrounds and the so called w-pvp, otherwise called ganking. I find it honestly tasteless and annoying most of the times, and worthless the in-game time. I play the game for the content and the story, and PVP is simply devoid of both. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy a good fight, or w-pvp when it’s done on an even ground. As much as I don’t like to get roflstomped, I don’t like myself to roflstomp enemies, one of the reasons why I didn’t hit practically anyone in Tol Barad during the event. I do gear up for PVP albeit slowly, but it’s because it’s a sore need, not because I enjoy it. And, we like it or not, the whole PVP mess, caused mainly by Blizzard’s idiotic policies(and mechanics) about it has ruined much rp and rp events possible otherwise. Why is that even possible? Sure it’s part of the server, but there’s more. That’s for another moment.

-At the time, the Stormwind Council and the whole bullshit about enforcing rules and rulers over players, whom the players should confront to. First of all, it’s right and fair to say that things and people changed, and that’s a terribly good thing. Such institutions, which I myself believe should not exist, or exist with a very very limited power, should be kept by people who OOC want really to enhance the rp for the whole community, and not just theirs or the one of their immediate close circle, something I’ve seen myself, having to handle things with the previous Council. Having a seven month project/guild erased with a swift movement of hand is not something which makes you liked. And shouldn’t even be possible, I add.

-This is the third point, and it’s closely tied with the other two. Despite whatever you can say and despite some betterments in the very late period, in Defias lurks rp elitism, which manifests itself when people try to challenge the so called ‘old guard’. I’ve heard anything: from server lore which is superior to official lore(I should open another loooong parenthesis about how lore often in DB gets stomped, but I’m not going to, feel lucky), to people say ‘The old community has more merits than the new comers so the new comers should just accept and shush’, from the ‘the community appointed them –Council, Senate, whatever powerful institution- so people should just accept it, and those who don’t are lollers’(what community, by the way? Defiasrp? I mean, really Defiasrp has confounded the goal to achieve as one achieved?) to ‘New rpers, doing basic mistakes: guys, let’s ignore them altogether’. I don’t like the name and shame game, I could tell the names of people who told those things, but that’s beside the point. (What I did recently on BTag was pushed, not by me, but by the person interested, so it doesn’t count). It’s easily seen why it’s tied to the other two points. This attitude provokes in the end bubble rp, and bubble rp is terribly damaged by PVP crashing the party. Instead of going with the flow (“Lightdamn, a bunch of Horde forces have infiltrated the defenses through magic, at arms!”) PVP gets completely detached and ruins immersion, instead of adding to it(which is the main reason RP-PVP servers were made in the first place). And of course, in the moment in which the community deems loller everybody who doesn’t stand by the community-enforced rules, it’s very hard to simply ignore those rules if you want rp.

There’d be a fourth point, the lore one, but I got too long on this post already and I still have to answer to Kit and Muzjath.

In their case the answer given is lazy because it lacks analysis. I dunno where we could check the data of the shrinking sub numbers, but, if I remember right, most of the subs lost (from 10 millions at Mop release to 8 of now) are from Asian countries, so, with little EU population involved. I am not denying that wow one day will die, and probably it’s already dying, slowly. I am denying the relation between wow’s death as it manifests itself now and the death of rp in wow. Even more, I strongly deny the relation between of DB rp playerbase to the shrinking of numbers overall. For two simple and obvious reasons:
1- If you hear the old and weathered roleplayers, the best of the rp, and the quantity of rpers was when there were less subscriptions overall, meaning at the the times of Vanilla and TBC. Ergo, less overall players are not related to less roleplayers. Less -potential- roleplayers, but not less roleplayers.
2- We all know, and it’s confirmed by various independent sources, meaning me, ertwen and others I won’t name that most Defias roleplayers have not unsubbed: they moved from a server to another. An entire guild, which has been very important for the whole server’s stories has moved with most of its rpers, just to cite a prominent example. Many rpers I was with in the last year and a half moved to AD or stopped roleplaying altogether. The issue here is evidently not “The game is old and dying so Defias is dying ‘cause of it’ but is ‘Some people left or are leaving Defias so Defias is dying ‘cause of it’. Again, always easy to point fingers at external issues, instead of checking ourselves.

Done. At least you can't tell I don't realize people's wishes.

As lovely as your post is, you're not entirely correct.

Two points:
- Many RPers I've known and I've only been on the server for 2 years, have left the game altogether.
- AD has a lot more issues because of its size. Quantity isn't always the best. I've struggled to get a foothold on there and I'm an extremely social RPer. The random RP is shit. That isn't me being elitist, it's me having awful experiences.
- People move over because of the quantity. AD has always had a high pop from my knowledge and when a few people go, more will follow because they're their friends. It's not because each of these people have made a sudden decision to hate DB, they follow the pack because they fear being left on a server that is dying.

TL;DR - Simply a chain reaction. End of.

Allonia_Miral wrote:

Allonia_Miral wrote:Here is something - if people don't like threads like these, the easiest solution is to just ignore it, until it silently drops off the frontpage all on its own... instead of making it yet another pointless 'twist-the-words' game, or a contest of who can make the wittiest troll response.

Because that only makes the place seem even more negative and unpleasant to me.

I'm confused... why are you quoting yourself?

Because she's right.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:rp elitism

Hmh. Things like what's happening right here are disgusting. Awesome idea, and the reactions to the thread seem to focus mostly on weather or not it's perfect according to blizzard lore. Who cares? Let's go hunt a dragon in an epic 5-day event. That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see happen more!

Less pretending to run a country (server), more going out there and experiencing the wealth of fun things the game world has to offer.

/target Decurius
/applaud

Wrote it better than I would have, or could.

And I would like to clarify that in my post earlier I did not mean to say "if you don't like it, just leave" but that a server such as AD may perhaps cater better to ones needs.

@Raenmar, the title of the thread suggests that you are not satisfied, that is where I was coming from

Longknife/Decurius wrote:the ‘the community appointed them –Council, Senate, whatever powerful institution- so people should just accept it, and those who don’t are lollers’(what community, by the way? Defiasrp? I mean, really Defiasrp has confounded the goal to achieve as one achieved?)

Just something to keep in mind here, the Council and Senate were created years prior to the existence of DefiasRP. They existed before even I was on the server, and I'm one of only a handful of truly old guard still left. The Council was created during vanilla, DefiasRP arose during WotLK.

And yes, the vast majority of RPers in the DB community support the Council and Senate. This is not to say that they strictly like them, but they acknowledge their existence and incorporate it into their RP. And as I have said before, I personally am not opposed to the community doing away with the Council. But I'd like that to be done ICly. If people really don't want it to exist, then they are free to orchestrate its downfall ICly.

That being said, I personally feel there is more value in having it than not. When used properly, it provides structure. Structure is good for RP, because it unifies the community as well as creates an avenue for IC conflict. The issue isn't the organization. That's not the problem. It's just that it needs to be used responsibly.

Drustai wrote:And as I have said before, I personally am not opposed to the community doing away with the Council. But I'd like that to be done ICly. If people really don't want it to exist, then they are free to orchestrate its downfall ICly.

That still means those players have to deal with it, Drustai. The problem anti-council people have is with it being something that is forced on them, forced into their stories. Orchestrating it's downfall is still very much "council RP". People who don't want the council forced on them, don't want to have anything to do with "council RP" all together.

Personally I'm fine with all that council jazz. I don't enjoy it myself, and simply don't take part in it.

Perhaps that will change one day, perhaps it won't. Who knows. For now, I prefer to have adventures

erwtenpeller wrote:

Drustai wrote:And as I have said before, I personally am not opposed to the community doing away with the Council. But I'd like that to be done ICly. If people really don't want it to exist, then they are free to orchestrate its downfall ICly.

That still means those players have to deal with it, Drustai. The problem anti-council people have is with it being something that is forced on them, forced into their stories. Orchestrating it's downfall is still very much "council RP". People who don't want the council forced on them, don't want to have anything to do with "council RP" all together.

And something we've been trying to do is to make it less forced, and more cooperational.

Which is a good thing! My RP-balls have just been busted by it one to many times, and I will avoid it like the plague as best I can, for now.

I don't get this old guard stuff. From what I see, not only is it a less than desirable title, but the people that fall into that category are some of the least vocal people in the community.

As for the overall argument, I'm not interested. I'll enjoy the RP I have and that is more than enough for me. I've tried AD, I didn't like the Alliance side and struggle to get into horde RP.

When it comes to arguing which server is better, it has and will forever be a pointless exercise. It doesn't matter. You're on the server you're on, you enjoy whatever server you're on.

Job done, really.

And I would like to clarify that in my post earlier I did not mean to say "if you don't like it, just leave" but that a server such as AD may perhaps cater better to ones needs.

@Raenmar, the title of the thread suggests that you are not satisfied, that is where I was coming from

Oh, I misinterpreted :p I apologize.

I really don't mind DB, even though the population is less than desirable at times. Writing the guides and stuff, trying to welcome new RPers, I enjoy all that to an extent. Feeling like I'm doing something that could loosely be considered 'productive'.

When it comes to arguing which server is better, it has and will forever be a pointless exercise. It doesn't matter. You're on the server you're on, you enjoy whatever server you're on.

I agree, but we can still try to bring people to DB when we have the opportunity. If I didn't enjoy being here then I would leave.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:

-PVP: I never liked PVP, especially the ‘random’ one, meaning random battlegrounds and the so called w-pvp, otherwise called ganking. I find it honestly tasteless and annoying most of the times, and worthless the in-game time. I play the game for the content and the story, and PVP is simply devoid of both. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy a good fight, or w-pvp when it’s done on an even ground. As much as I don’t like to get roflstomped, I don’t like myself to roflstomp enemies, one of the reasons why I didn’t hit practically anyone in Tol Barad during the event. I do gear up for PVP albeit slowly, but it’s because it’s a sore need, not because I enjoy it. And, we like it or not, the whole PVP mess, caused mainly by Blizzard’s idiotic policies(and mechanics) about it has ruined much rp and rp events possible otherwise. Why is that even possible? Sure it’s part of the server, but there’s more. That’s for another moment.

People should actually leave because of this point. That's the Purpose of normal RP servers. You can still have planned RP-PvP battles there without risk of being ganked. Just set a date and type /pvp, and go at it.

If you don't like the PvP ruleset and everything that comes with it. and your enjoyment slides past the scale of "fun" into lesser forms, then Move out from the server. Please do it.

It is not this server's job, to try and keep you happy here. (you being a person that doesn't like the PvP ruleset, not you specifically dec). A lot of people chose this server so they could fight for quest mob, a lot of people chose this server because they could fight for mining/herb Nodes. A lot of people chose this server because they liked Stranglethorn, because they liked Southshore VS Tarrenmill, because they like the thrill of looking over their shoulder when they're out in the open. And a lot of people chose this server because they enjoy the challenges posed in fighting outside a pre-determined narrow field.

It is not Blizzard's Stupid policies that ruin the PvP. Heck no, its blizzards policies that created the PvP realm, while providing everyone that didn't enjoy it with another option.

There's a reason that DB has been the highest pop RP-PvP server since the start, because it was the first, and people craved for it, wanted it, so when it opened up. everybody that enjoyed RP and PvP and the possibility of it, moved from RP to RP-PvP. It is the reason why most of the vanilla guilds like TTH and DoL, still have the /pvp is mandatory in their guild-rules (even if it isn't enforced) Heck SGE's most known event Alliance side is he STV patrols. They Mercilessly gank the living shit out of everyone they find on their patrols. Levelers, Rpers, people just passing through. And shit that's awesome.

Blizzard in no way should change the PvP rules, to cater to people on the wrong server type. People should change servers if they find they don't enjoy the server-type. It sucks you need to spend 20 quid, but you'll get more enjoyment out of it in the end.