Re: [April's Fool] The Council of Councils - Definitive Solution to Defias' Ailments

by **Gogol** Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:13 am

Melnerag wrote:Ironforge is a different beast entirely, with there being a single guild held together by its leaders and officers and having a senate. I didn't really interract with the senate that much in the recent years, but I assume that while Stormwind Council is more about reaction to ongoing RP in Stormwind (Mediating disputes, getting involved in conflicts) the Ironforge Senate is more about ambience and storytelling of creating greater context for TTH.

It is becoming a recurring trend that people who seem to have little to no knowledge on how the Senate operates are rather to quik to make a analys of it.
If you consider the Senates constant power struggles between the mayor and sub clans, the toppling of each other, assassinations and what not; and then calling it meer ambience and storytelling, instead of "mediating disputes and getting involved in conflicts" you clearly lack knowledge of the subject and should consider not jumping the gun like that. One might think you are misinterpreting the Senate based on the public image it conveys, and not what happens behind closed doors.

by **Melnerag** Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:20 am

Gogol wrote:

It is becoming a recurring trend that people who seem to have little to no knowledge on how the Senate operates are rather to quik to make a analys of it.
If you consider the Senates constant power struggles between the mayor and sub clans, the toppling of each other, assassinations and what not; and then calling it meer ambience and storytelling, instead of "mediating disputes and getting involved in conflicts" you clearly lack knowledge of the subject and should consider not jumping the gun like that. One might think you are misinterpreting the Senate based on the public image it conveys, and not what happens behind closed doors.

*whacks Gogol*

Read! I was musing about the Theory of Councils and made an assumption (hypothesis) about Senate. So instead of assuming I have ill intent, just say "Sorry, hypothesis is wrong!" Very Happy

-Then- I never used 'mere ambience and storytelling', I said "more" which means I recognize that Senate does mediating of disputes and getting involved in conflicts, but compared to SW Council its ambience&storytelling sides are more developed.

...and that is why you can't have nice things on this forum. You try to ponder the Higher Planes of Existance and somebody will assume the worst and think you are trying to backstab them! I am hurt, deeply hurt.

by **Gogol** Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:29 am

Melnerag wrote:
Gogol wrote:

It is becoming a recurring trend that people who seem to have little to no knowledge on how the Senate operates are rather to quik to make a analys of it.
If you consider the Senates constant power struggles between the mayor and sub clans, the toppling of each other, assassinations and what not; and then calling it meer ambience and storytelling, instead of "mediating disputes and getting involved in conflicts" you clearly lack knowledge of the subject and should consider not jumping the gun like that. One might think you are misinterpreting the Senate based on the public image it conveys, and not what happens behind closed doors.

*whacks Gogol*

Read! I was musing about the Theory of Councils and made an assumption (hypothesis) about Senate. So instead of assuming I have ill intent, just say "Sorry, hypothesis is wrong!" -Then- I never used 'mere ambience and storytelling', I said "more" which means I recognize that Senate does mediating of disputes and getting involved in conflicts, but compared to SW Council its ambience&storytelling sides are more developed.

...and that is why you can't have nice things on this forum. You try to ponder the Higher Planes of Existance and somebody will assume the worst and think you are trying to backstab them! I am hurt, deeply hurt.

I did not think you acted on ill intent, but that you where misinterpreting the Senate, and as a stoic watchman of the beardlings I feelt it as my duty to have you corrected Melnerag.
But it is true, you used the word "more" and it is probablly true that the Senate has more storytelling and ambience than the Council, just having it pointed out that does not negatively affect the "Mediating disputes and getting involved in conflicts"scene. It is just a smaller playerbase and harder to keep track on from a outsiders perspective.

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:29 am

Melnerag wrote:There is also a dark side to this, of course. For instance I make a warlock/dk guild serving the Alliance. Inofficial channels may endorse and like it, but Council going by the Laws will pounce to set regulations on my guild. Regulations by themselves are not bad, since if there was NO council and I just my guild while the rest of Stormwind Guilds ICly refused interraction unless the Warlock Guild faced certain standards and agreed to scrutiny, it would result in the same. That is why I think the Council should try and stay close to the 'spirit of the community'.

I was following the debate from outside, but since you chose to get on my nerves(consciously or not)...
Direct experience showed that the Council itself is the major obstacle to overcome to make such a guild/project work. War Sect was definitely stopped 'cause of epeens' struggles, and, here I say it, whoever wants to get it back and working(tbh, I think DB is too much filled with bs to even let it work) should simply ignore the whole Council crap. Proof is that somewhere else a guild which is in practice identical, in purpose and project, is known by the community, thrives and participates in server-wide events.

by **Thelos** Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:59 am

Gogol wrote:Much like the SW council used to be then Thelos, and it was bad. And also direct reason for the creating of more specific goverments.

I don't understand this statement.

Could you eleborate?

by **Gilran** Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:34 pm

Lexgrad wrote:
Gilran wrote:Lexgrad, as long as they are critics backed up by the solid ground, I openly salute them. Your claims, however, are far from a solid ground and no they are not critics, but a poor attempt to taint our guild, which made you look like a complete fool. No offense.

Well it is a long term opinion I have based on experience. I looked just now and there are 6 people in IF, it is late at night. I could do daily screen shots of /who Ironforge? Ultimately I RP less on DB now but Gilran, make the Random RP happen in IF. I made the Acherus a hub and had to do it during ABoC and server decline. I would love to see a busy IF but it is just not so.

Things are so easy to conclude when you see what you want and without close researches being done. To elaborate it a bit, The Three Hammers is more or less event-based guild, thus our Roleplay mostly occurs during the events. Our events are in most cases not limited to Ironforge, hence, most of them happen outside of it. While me and Ildranor are working on making more random RP to occur, we cannot force our members to Roleplay 24/7, just so you would be able to see 10+ members from our guild in Ironforge, whenever you would /Who. Nonetheless, Ironforge still serves as somewhat active Ironforge hub, when we have events based within it.

But you are saying you want more Random RP to happen in IF. You have me on Skype, I will be more than glad to hear any forms of feedbacks and suggestions coming from you on how to increase that.

by **Melnerag** Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:09 pm

Some plots require a kind of high authority. For instance Senate could not ask the Council to extradite Bismack if Senate wasn't claiming to be Lorewise Dwarven Senate and Council wasn't claiming to be an advisory/executive body.

In fact, if there was neither senate nor council, Bismack's actions would've been 100% good.Noble alliance soldiers bust an evil mad inventor. End of story.Only because we do have self-proclaimed institutions of power can we make it more than that.

Now you can of course argue wether it is a good or bad thing, and that perhaps we should categorically stay away from plots that rely on power. But, there you go, some plots are impossible without Power!

by Guest Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:13 pm

In fact, if there was neither senate nor council,

Which essentially comes down to the fact that if you want to get rid of these institutions they all have to go at the same time. Otherwise it will not work any other way.

by **Cid** Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:26 pm

Gilran wrote:Lexgrad, as long as they are critics backed up by the solid ground, I openly salute them. Your claims, however, are far from a solid ground and no they are not critics, but a poor attempt to taint our guild, which made you look like a complete fool.

I removed the "No offense", mostly because I see someone who was active for one day in the guild, then let his char rot for three months to be kicked out due to our roster-cleaning sessions (which under my time as officer was checked once every month, to keep the roster actual and current). I hardly value your claims, Lex, because it is based on nothing more than spite and hatred for certain members of a guild that has existed for the entertainment of many for YEARS. Instead of offering critique and simply bashing something that you weren't even trying to be part of, try to offer alternatives. If you did then maybe it would be more constructive.

Frankly, Lex... I only see someone that serve to make DB look bad and undermine places like DefiasRP when I look upon your posts. For all our sakes, keep out of stuff that you no longer are part of.

by **Lexgrad** Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:52 pm

Gilran wrote:
Lexgrad wrote:
Gilran wrote:Lexgrad, as long as they are critics backed up by the solid ground, I openly salute them. Your claims, however, are far from a solid ground and no they are not critics, but a poor attempt to taint our guild, which made you look like a complete fool. No offense.

Well it is a long term opinion I have based on experience. I looked just now and there are 6 people in IF, it is late at night. I could do daily screen shots of /who Ironforge? Ultimately I RP less on DB now but Gilran, make the Random RP happen in IF. I made the Acherus a hub and had to do it during ABoC and server decline. I would love to see a busy IF but it is just not so.

Things are so easy to conclude when you see what you want and without close researches being done. To elaborate it a bit, The Three Hammers is more or less event-based guild, thus our Roleplay mostly occurs during the events. Our events are in most cases not limited to Ironforge, hence, most of them happen outside of it. While me and Ildranor are working on making more random RP to occur, we cannot force our members to Roleplay 24/7, just so you would be able to see 10+ members from our guild in Ironforge, whenever you would /Who. Nonetheless, Ironforge still serves as somewhat active Ironforge hub, when we have events based within it.

But you are saying you want more Random RP to happen in IF. You have me on Skype, I will be more than glad to hear any forms of feedbacks and suggestions coming from you on how to increase that.

Well yes Gilran that was always my point. Best thing I can think of is to get a barman or two, run a bar and you will have an instant hub of Dorf flavoured RP. Ultimately to make lots of RP you will need other guilds to move in as i were and use the building of IF. But a regular bar is a v good first step.

by **Cid** Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:55 pm

Lexgrad wrote:Well yes Gilran that was always my point. Best thing I can think of is to get a barman or two, run a bar and you will have an instant hub of Dorf flavoured RP. Ultimately to make lots of RP you will need other guilds to move in as i were and use the building of IF. But a regular bar is a v good first step.

http://www.defiasrp.com/t6357-ic-tavern-the-sober-dwarf?highlight=Sober+Dwarf

by **Lexgrad** Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:05 pm

Yes Cid, I agree with something that is being done! Grap your fucking pitchforks! Cid, dont be a dick, you are not as good at it as me.

As for hating, there are few I hate really. I just get frustrated when RP is not happening due to small mindedness, mistrust and selfish greed.

by **Finnabhair** Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:29 pm

Lexgrad wrote:Cid, dont be a dick, you are not as good at it as me.

I wouldn't exactly call that a noble ambition. >_>

Spoiler:

by **Lexgrad** Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:33 pm

by **Grufftoof** Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:48 pm

The thread really doesn't need to spiral into ever more inane responses.

Or two character replies.

But I am loathed to lock it. Locking is physically easy, but not always really needed.

Because the original idea was kinda funny. And the latter "discussion" could have actually been "useful" or "helpful".

However, it never harms to reiterate:

We are all part of this Community (active on DB or not). But that doesn't mean we will all be friends all the time.

Yet we can be civil. We can (sometimes) be mature. We can (this will come as a surprise to some) have fun. We can use this forum to support and create RP!

We can also post pictures of rubbish or rainbows we can be angry or happy. But it's better to do that elsewhere, ayup.

by **Drustai** Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:15 pm

Senariul wrote:For the same reason that everyone must adhere to Stormwind Law when you're not RPing with your own Guild, because challenging peoples OOCly held positions of power is hard and then they'd have to face inward critiscm when they realise that they're not the only RPers on Defias.

Please read my previous posts. The Council is currently in a period of reform and is actively working to act on people's criticisms and limit itself.

Is it any wonder the Nelves have only recently gotten themselves an IC Embassay, despite being the primary force on Kalimdor, as well as one of two forces with Naval capability?

Actually no. For many years I've been under the assumption that they already had one. Dwarves have had one for a very long time. Arathorians had one. This was not something the Council needed to decide on. To my understanding, Calisar chose to treat it as a simple waystation rather than a full embassy of her own volition, and to then work towards making it a full-fledged embassy through RP.

In fact, if you look at the thread where she first announced it, it was Stormwind guard groups, not the Council, who were most opposed to making it an embassy... and only because of the issues of law enforcement. Speaking on behalf of myself and Maelmoor, we were both very eager to make it a full embassy.

And don't even get me started on the Draenei who hold an entire planet.

It was conscious decision by the draenei community to avoid this kind of stuff in general. Several people tried to create draenei councils, and most of us shot them down. In fact, most of us were opposed to draenei being on the Stormwind Council, too (Mandui and Exaythe).

It's all because certain Human RPers gave themselves positions of power, then locked everyone else out. I've not been as anti-council as some of the other RPers here, but every time I've had to deal with them in one capacity or another, that's how it has always seemed. Forgive me if you believe I am wrong, but I am sticking to my opinion.

Again, the Council is in a period of reform. We are working to answer people's criticisms.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:
Melnerag wrote:There is also a dark side to this, of course. For instance I make a warlock/dk guild serving the Alliance. Inofficial channels may endorse and like it, but Council going by the Laws will pounce to set regulations on my guild. Regulations by themselves are not bad, since if there was NO council and I just my guild while the rest of Stormwind Guilds ICly refused interraction unless the Warlock Guild faced certain standards and agreed to scrutiny, it would result in the same. That is why I think the Council should try and stay close to the 'spirit of the community'.
I was following the debate from outside, but since you chose to get on my nerves(consciously or not)...
Direct experience showed that the Council itself is the major obstacle to overcome to make such a guild/project work. War Sect was definitely stopped 'cause of epeens' struggles, and, here I say it, whoever wants to get it back and working(tbh, I think DB is too much filled with bs to even let it work) should simply ignore the whole Council crap. Proof is that somewhere else a guild which is in practice identical, in purpose and project, is known by the community, thrives and participates in server-wide events.

New changes we've made would allow for it to work now. I've made sure to work in an opening for War Sect-like stuff with what I've been working on, and have already okayed someone the other day who asked for authorization to do something similar (on an individual level, rather than guild).

For my part, I'm trying to work out the shit.

Thelos wrote:Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while:

Why do we we have Stormwind Council and an Ironforge Senate, but no Alliance Council?

I get the fact that the Stormwind Council might be a remnant from an age where every race on the Alliance had its own council, but those days seem to be long gone. With the Alliance becoming an increasingly unified front in the lore (as seen in Pandaria), along with the playerbase ever dwindling, wouldn't it make sense to make an Alliance Council; a body that unites the purposes of Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Worgen, Night Elves and Draenei alike? It might help refocuse some attention on these lesser seen races and encourage more interaction between them.

Just a thought!

It's a matter of the server's focus on race individualism. We've had the Stormwind Council, the Ironforge Senate, the Council of Elders (Night Elves), the Tinker's Court, and previously the Gilnean Parliament. Think the Arathorians have their own, too. The draenei never had one since, as I said earlier, we actively opposed any attempts to make one. I think the closest thing we have to an Alliance Council is the Northern Council, along with the Grand War Councils when they happen.

I personally would like something wider, but it would have to be something on top of the individual racial councils, rather than replacing them.

by **Thelos** Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:46 am

Drustai wrote:
It's a matter of the server's focus on race individualism. We've had the Stormwind Council, the Ironforge Senate, the Council of Elders (Night Elves), the Tinker's Court, and previously the Gilnean Parliament. Think the Arathorians have their own, too. The draenei never had one since, as I said earlier, we actively opposed any attempts to make one. I think the closest thing we have to an Alliance Council is the Northern Council, along with the Grand War Councils when they happen.

I personally would like something wider, but it would have to be something on top of the individual racial councils, rather than replacing them.

Fair points, though I find it quite ironic that my suggestion to decrease the total ammount of councils gets warped into a suggestion to add to their number!

In all seriousness, I would probably stay away from any councils either way, whatever form they take, since I don't tend to exactly enjoy political role-play much. I'd like for those that do that it should be as enjoyable as possible though.

by **Raene** Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:23 am

It was always my understanding that the Stormwind Guard Groups and the Council seemed to act in unison?

Forgive me on that front if I'm misinformed. You seem sincere Drustai, and from all of my past dealings with you I've got no reason to believe anything other than what you're saying, however it's of little importance to me at the moment with how well the council is coming around when I'm now primarily Horde side. Who knows, perhaps when I'm done Horde side I'll come back and you'll have done all you set out to do, maybe then I'll look into getting involved but for now considering the past, all I'm left with is a bitter taste in my mouth each time the Council is brought up in conversation. I'm cranky that way.

by Guest Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:27 am

I would say that Drustai is the first person to have moved so transparently and with the OOC blessing and co-operation with a vast swathe of the community in changing the Stormwind Council and improving it.

Something quiet notable, Drustai here is a regular Gorbachev.

by **Raene** Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:44 am

I have no idea who Gorbachev is, and now I feel un-educated and like I have the dumb.

I'll assume it's a good thing?

by **Thelos** Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:48 am

Senariul wrote:I have no idea who Gorbachev is, and now I feel un-educated and like I have the dumb.

I'll assume it's a good thing?

And he sort of did.

by Guest Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:03 am

Let Perestroika and Glasnost commence Areyah Gorbachev!

by **Drustai** Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:18 am

Senariul wrote:It was always my understanding that the Stormwind Guard Groups and the Council seemed to act in unison?

Depends. Disciples are typically very pro-Council, Regiment is anti-Council. Regiment were pro-Areyah, but due to recent IC developments they're not even that anymore.

Point is, the guard groups and the Council are not one coin. Each have their own opinions on things. Even the Disciples go against the Council when they disagree with things we do--anything dealing with granting rights and permissions for shadow magic/shadow users, in particular.

I'd suggest reading through the Waystation thread. You'll see that Calisar's initial idea was for it to work its way up to being an embassy, rather than being "shot down" by the Council.

The only reason a night elf embassy did not exist previously is because no night elf had previously worked on making one. As a longtime member of the Kalimdor community, I can tell you that we simply had very little desire to interact with the Eastern Kingdoms. We didn't "try and get rejected", we earnestly just didn't care to RP there. The draenei had no problem in getting an embassy in Ironforge and a "waystation" in Stormwind when we decided to start interacting more with the EK community, and Calisar had no problem getting a waystation when she decided to make one.

It was a matter of desire, not rejection.

Also, I feel honored by the Gorbachev comparison. xD

by **Melnerag** Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:23 am

Also, I feel honored by the Gorbachev comparison. xD

/hate

To quote a comedian show:
EU: "'Sup Russia, want to be part of the EU?"
RU: "Sure, as long as Gorbachev is the EU president."
*Russia turns to the audience and whispers*
"So that EU falls apart!"

by **Calisar** Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:45 am

Just to offer a two cents on these latter comments on the Waystation vs. the Council. It was always intended as a very slow burn thing, to rock up to a City and demand an Embassy just wouldn't do Wink

It's still not a wholly popular project with some Nelves anyway.. mingling with lesser races? pah!

Once we did ask for it, the Council members I've dealt with have been nothing but encouraging (and damn speedy) so no complaints here at all. It's not a massive project, it's pootling along, and we're not seeking stealth domination of the City just yet (though frankly one or two members needs to be watched.. Dara *cough*)

I guess I've not had enough of a history with the Council and whatever drama may/may not have happened before. To be enough of an outsider to SW politics to just be impressed by it all, those that adhere to the Council and those that don't, and the turnout every week, is fine by me.

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