[April's Fool] The Council of Councils - Definitive Solution to Defias' Ailments

Gogol wrote:As my good name has been brought in to this vile and quite uncalled for attack on the dwarves of this server(with a very few rare exceptions), I will say this only once; grow up Lex, its just fun and games. You continue making a real sad clown out of yourself, and its painfull to me as a fellow human to witness. Surley there must be something more worthy your time and attention rather than like an old wet dog sniffing around here for breadcrumbs. Go live, meet a girl, or a boy. Do something stupid, make a few memories, settle down and forget the names Ephitos and Gogol forever. It would do you a lot of good. Im telling you this as a loving brother and nothing else.

Gogol, I am sure TTH can withstand some soft critic from me. And yes it is mostly fun and games, I love fun and games and RP. I am not sure where this advise comes from but ty for it I guess, though I think you are in error. I have no feelings towards you so chill, dw about it.

Let's not pretend Eph hasn't instigated anything. This is all very one-sided.

Lexgrad wrote:Lies Eph. You spammed trade about us, you locked us out of our channel, as you did with the council channel too I seem to remember. That day in Darrowshire myself and Monrena were subject to gankings many times and like fools we still tried to RP with you until the end. You are a liar Eph, you have not changed.

Your inability to reply to the rest of the post and leave four lines accusing me of things you can't prove is the only way to avoid being proven wrong.

Unfortunately Lexgrad, I'm not the only one who does not consider you a role-player of any surmountable quality, but that did not translate joining your channel or whatever other accusations you have to throw at us.

I don't see the connection between your channel and the Stormwind Council channel. I banned Geldar, Saihna, Anae, Raelan and whoever else they were all friends with at the time for a day, I don't really care and by the looks of things, neither do they. I've settled things with almost most if not all of them.

Nobody ganked you in Darrowshire Lexgrad, I have good memory and believe me I remember the times I ganked you and the times I did not.

I'm not lying here Lexgrad.

Also, I can second Gogol's very kind advice.

Lexgrad, as long as they are critics backed up by the solid ground, I openly salute them. Your claims, however, are far from a solid ground and no they are not critics, but a poor attempt to taint our guild, which made you look like a complete fool. No offense.

There is little do debate in that last bit, as I say, doubt me ask Monrena, the other DK you ganked that day.

Gilran wrote:Lexgrad, as long as they are critics backed up by the solid ground, I openly salute them. Your claims, however, are far from a solid ground and no they are not critics, but a poor attempt to taint our guild, which made you look like a complete fool. No offense.

I can agree with this. You started with a general rant about how bad TTH and awful is, providing no evidence besides being there for 3 months, (when? guild leadership switched hands a few times?) and then retreated from it to go personally accusing me of things I didn't do.

Lexgrad wrote:Lies Eph. You spammed trade about us, you locked us out of our channel, as you did with the council channel too I seem to remember. That day in Darrowshire myself and Monrena were subject to gankings many times and like fools we still tried to RP with you until the end. You are a liar Eph, you have not changed.

I don't recall any bannings from channels. Ganking during the Ebon Shroud meetings in the Scarlet Enclave, yes, but not channel bannings.

Gilran wrote:Lexgrad, as long as they are critics backed up by the solid ground, I openly salute them. Your claims, however, are far from a solid ground and no they are not critics, but a poor attempt to taint our guild, which made you look like a complete fool. No offense.

Well it is a long term opinion I have based on experience. I looked just now and there are 6 people in IF, it is late at night. I could do daily screen shots of /who Ironforge? Ultimately I RP less on DB now but Gilran, make the Random RP happen in IF. I made the Acherus a hub and had to do it during ABoC and server decline. I would love to see a busy IF but it is just not so.

I will take your lack of response to the rest of my post as following:

Your inability to argue means that you have nothing to argue. You have the burden of proof on you, that you cannot produce. You are the one accusing, so prove it.

You have slandered TTH, as well as called out myself and Gogol on something we didn't do. When Gogol posted you quickly hid and apologized.

You apologized to TTH once they posted.

Drustai has confirmed that I didn't go near your channel, I don't deny ganking you on Gordug, and never did. There was no Darrowshire incident and nobody ganked you there, we killed you once and moved on after you god emoted. (Maybe there was poor communication with Daeyna as she was the one translating, but I am pretty sure she made it clear enough for us to understand)

So, in the end, people can make the decision themselves for what to believe. I'm not the one fleeing from a civil and constructive debate here Lexgrad, you are.

Err no I apologize for nothing and nor have I at any place in my posts. I stand by my critic of the senate. You lie Eph and tbh I see no need to start begging people to post on my behalf to prove otherwise. The people who are important to me will know the truth, for the new people here there was a reason Eph was banned and thrown out of the community for so long. It is almost insulting that anything the GM of the brotherhood of the hold can think to question how I ran the shroud (Which might be the route of this, but who knows really).

Also it is not slander against the TTH or the senate to say what has been my experience of Dorf RP on DB.

As for gogol, I have no feelings to him one way or another, I suppose he is backing up a mate/defending his guild /shrug.

You can take my response to be what it is, im busy doing other things.

If the Dorf RPers dont see any truth in what I say, they can simply ignore it and carry on, as I will with the lies of Eph.

Lexgrad wrote:Same thing as above, you can make up a new guild but it comes down to you plowing the same farrows in a new way. As I said in the other thread we got into this, you made a noble who hated the council. No reasons behind it, he just hated them because you wanted him to. The council could do nothing to change this, in fairness they did nothing to cause it. It is ooc madness taken IC and the Dorfs went along with it.

It doesn't matter for what the guild was created for. It was an IC guild, that made IC actions. The Council should have responded to it, rather than just ignoring it because it was made by someone they didn't like OOC.

Lexgrad wrote:As for Senate RP, Dwarves are not soviets, there is no cold war. Senate RP with the council as far as I could see was just stupid. Doubly so towards the end with "We no longer recognize you". To this day I do not know what caused it other than some north korian style attention seeking. That is why I really dislike the senate, it is just petty and ego driven RP where the "facts" are often just made up. No government would deny the existence of an ally in wartime without something serious happening.

The Council has done plenty to cause it. Plenty to cause dissent among the nobility, plenty to cause dissent amongst the Senate. They had every reason to refuse to recognize us. It was pretty easy to figure out the reasons why if you had only asked them politely (of course, Jarric and Braiden both refused to listen to Areyah's advice on how to go about it, and then wonder why they made no progress). I was able to get the reasons in one meeting, why couldn't you? The reasons being lack of activity (only very few councilors, each of which carried on a longstanding trend of councilors who do very little outside of the meetings), and corruption (accusations against Braiden, and currently the ongoing investigations). Areyah and Maelmoor easily got them to agree to restore recognition once those two issues were resolved, and the first has already been resolved.

You're new to the server, Lexgrad, so I'll forgive the lack of knowledge. But the Council has over the years presented itself very poorly. Its reputation has been low for a very long time, long before you joined it. Frankly there is more reason for people to oppose the Council than support it. It is the Council's job to repair its reputation, not to simply ignore the people opposing it because they don't like or don't understand the opposition.


It is the Council's job to respond to things ICly. Not to complain about who is doing it, what they are doing, or whatever. The Council should have reacted to House Goodwyn. The Council should have reacted to the Senate's refusal of recognition. No matter what you thought OOCly. That is why people don't like the Council, and that is the kind of behavior that I am working to purge from it.

The issue with Councils and other such organizations is people who do nothing with it. People who use it solely for the title and place of authority and being elitist and choosing to interact only with people they like. That is why the Council has been disliked for so many years. The Council and similar organizations should be a job, where the involved players work to create and support RP, even with people they don't like. Ephitos and I have had many differences over the years. I still find him overly abrasive and hostile. The thing is, I do not let that affect RP. As a minister, and more importantly, as a roleplayer, it is my job to interact with everyone, no matter what I feel about them OOCly.

Lexgrad wrote:Err no I apologize for nothing and nor have I at any place in my posts. I stand by my critic of the senate. You lie Eph and tbh I see no need to start begging people to post on my behalf to prove otherwise. The people who are important to me will know the truth, for the new people here there was a reason Eph was banned and thrown out of the community for so long. It is almost insulting that anything the GM of the brotherhood of the hold can think to question how I ran the shroud (Which might be the route of this, but who knows really).

Also it is not slander against the TTH or the senate to say what has been my experience of Dorf RP on DB.

As for gogol, I have no feelings to him one way or another, I suppose he is backing up a mate/defending his guild /shrug.

You can take my response to be what it is, im busy doing other things.

t;dr You are running away and can't prove anything.

I'm finished "debating" with you Lexgrad. I have outlined in my posts everything very carefully to you, and have challenged you.

You first started a barrage of accusations, accusations I demanded evidence on. When you slunk away from providing any evidence you have "better things to do". When I challenged all your posts about TTH, and where you blatantly insulted the Senate as god themed RP and that it is a vehicle for Gogol and I for ego and power tossing, you've slunk away, yet again.

Either stand by your word to the very end Lexgrad, or say nothing.

I'd like to repeat what Gogol said, if your age by DefiasRP is right, and you're 30 and wasting your time trying to prove how evil I am over the internet, then I sincerely hope you find something more productive to do.

Also, regarding Brotherhood of the Hold, I made mistakes and that was my first guild, when I turned it into Army of the Damned it became a much greater lore adhering guild. The difference is, I learned from my mistakes, standing in cathedral square bad, RPing in the North where DK's are supposed to be good, so on and so forth.

What debate! I never said I was debating, just sharing some thoughts as I was in a reflective mood. Frankly Eph it was rather unsatisfactory.

Either stand by your word to the very end Lexgrad, or say nothing

What are you on about! I said there is no random RP in Ironforge... fine if you wish it I will make and publish a study on the matter and post it here for you to see. It is effort on my part which I do not wish to make but is that what it is going to take to "stand by my word". It is Dorf RP, not my own which is harmed by the lack of RP, why am I to take more effort to prove that than Dorf RPers take to RP in their own city outside of the senate event.

And yeah, about the third crack you had at my age now Eph! I am 30 and RP!!!! OMG! Old people RP. You know nothing outside of this about my life which is rich and fulfilling

Anyway, done with this for the night, to AD!

I want to say something general on the matter of government organizations and their positive/negative effects on RP in addition to my above post.

The truth of it really is that organizations like the Council and the Senate are there to support the RP of the community, not the RP of themselves. If the community decides to tar, feather, and drag them through the mud? To rebel and fuck them over and assassinate them? Then the officials better damn well let that happen. Because that's fostering RP for the community.

Government organizations do not have a right to exist. They do not have a right to be treated with immunity. They have a job to provide RP to the community, and if that community decides that the RP they want is to topple the government organization, then the government organization has an obligation to provide.

We on government organizations should work for others, not ourselves. Being on a government organization is supposed to be about helping others with their RP, not for our own RP.

Government organizations in the past have been maligned and hated and considered poor because they refused to accept the above. They decided they wanted to be a group of friends circle jerking each other. Ministers held seats not for the benefit of the community, but because it benefited their own RP. That is what makes government organizations bad. And that is what needs to be stamped out. When those things are stamped out, when the government organization instead becomes an avenue to create and develop RP, where its members are selfless and acknowledge themselves as working for the benefit of others instead of themselves, it becomes something positive. Government organizations are not bad for RP. They are only bad if they are managed poorly and selfishly.

Hear, hear!

Drustai wrote:
The Council and similar organizations should be a job.

Drustai, that's worrying. The Council should, always, just be about having fun. It's a nice event for a weekly basis and doing things on the side is a bonus. A lot of people do support the Council because they like the RP structure our server has. I quit because it became incredibly tedious. It's not a job.


Now, I agree that Lex has been a little unfair in his statements and I'm all for the Senate, Council etc. However, the reason I called you a hypocrit Gogol is because you tried to be demeaning (it was subtle, granted) by telling Lex to stop getting so mad and go and get a girlfriend etc, whereas your guild dived in face first and made yourselves all look stupid by diving in with insults and grouping up against him. A couple of you debating back and forth was fine, but when half your guild logs just to say "Lies and slander" ...

As for you, Eph: it's quite clear you made a dig at Lex's age. Lexgrad is a bit melodramatic when it comes to some things and he does big up AD a little too much but that was an unnecessary dig. You need to stop being such an internet warrior. You had good points in some of your posts until that point. I liked this thread because it was some venting without the quick-to-ban button on display; don't ruin it by being a shit.

Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while:

Why do we we have Stormwind Council and an Ironforge Senate, but no Alliance Council?

I get the fact that the Stormwind Council might be a remnant from an age where every race on the Alliance had its own council, but those days seem to be long gone. With the Alliance becoming an increasingly unified front in the lore (as seen in Pandaria), along with the playerbase ever dwindling, wouldn't it make sense to make an Alliance Council; a body that unites the purposes of Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Worgen, Night Elves and Draenei alike? It might help refocuse some attention on these lesser seen races and encourage more interaction between them.

Just a thought!

For the same reason that everyone must adhere to Stormwind Law when you're not RPing with your own Guild, because challenging peoples OOCly held positions of power is hard and then they'd have to face inward critiscm when they realise that they're not the only RPers on Defias.

Is it any wonder the Nelves have only recently gotten themselves an IC Embassay, despite being the primary force on Kalimdor, as well as one of two forces with Naval capability?

Any confusion as to why Worgen just devolve into Stormwindian Humans, despite the long standing lore that says Gilneans and Stormwindians never truly saw eye to eye.

Gnomes are under-represented at the best of times, and when the Dwarves have trouble being seen as a legitimate ruling body in Stormwind they're forced to create their own Senate.

And don't even get me started on the Draenei who hold an entire planet.

It's all because certain Human RPers gave themselves positions of power, then locked everyone else out. I've not been as anti-council as some of the other RPers here, but every time I've had to deal with them in one capacity or another, that's how it has always seemed. Forgive me if you believe I am wrong, but I am sticking to my opinion.

Much like the SW council used to be then Thelos, and it was bad. And also direct reason for the creating of more specific goverments.

Down with the oppressive regime! Power to the people!

erwtenpeller wrote:Down with the oppressive regime! Power to the people!

I think Muscle is going to have another idiotic idea soon(TM) and it will not be pretty. Beware Stormwind!

Imho, any consistent interraction between groups and guilds in same area will inevitably lead to a council. It may be just officers meeting OOCly to discuss the rules of common courtesy and planning events, but eventually it will get IC.

So yes, I see councils is inevitable.

Ironforge is a different beast entirely, with there being a single guild held together by its leaders and officers and having a senate. I didn't really interract with the senate that much in the recent years, but I assume that while Stormwind Council is more about reaction to ongoing RP in Stormwind (Mediating disputes, getting involved in conflicts) the Ironforge Senate is more about ambience and storytelling of creating greater context for TTH.

What I find extremely fascinating by Stormwind Council that it evolved from the (in my eyes) naturally-occuring council of leaders and officers into a professional council in a sense that a group of people who enjoy that kind of RP devote themselves to it. Stormwind has five major guilds, only one of them has a member on the Council. This creates an undercurrent as well, since at any given time leadership of the Regiment can decide to interract with leadership of the Disciples directly, avoiding going through the council. I find this interplay of official channels and inofficial channels to be a good thing for RP.

There is also a dark side to this, of course. For instance I make a warlock/dk guild serving the Alliance. Inofficial channels may endorse and like it, but Council going by the Laws will pounce to set regulations on my guild. Regulations by themselves are not bad, since if there was NO council and I just my guild while the rest of Stormwind Guilds ICly refused interraction unless the Warlock Guild faced certain standards and agreed to scrutiny, it would result in the same. That is why I think the Council should try and stay close to the 'spirit of the community'.

What I find extremely fascinating by Stormwind Council that it evolved from the (in my eyes) naturally-occuring council of leaders and officers into a professional council in a sense that a group of people who enjoy that kind of RP devote themselves to it.

This is the worst part I found. It evolved from a gathering of leaders who decided things for themselves, magically into a "we are advisers of the King" crap.

I can damn well bet that there was a lot of solid arguments against doing this as well, but hey, judging by the old archives, everything like that was ignored.