Character combat strength.

Drustai wrote:But yes, I do believe players should spend hours of work developing their character as thoroughly as they can. To me, roleplaying is about playing the role, not about entertaining myself. Faithfully enacting the role is of primary responsibility to me. My personal entertainment comes as a byproduct of that. Ironically, I wouldn't be having fun if I was focusing on my personal fun. Knowing that I've played my character as accurately, realistically, and faithfully as I can is what I find fun, even if it requires me to do a lot of busy work in the process, or to lose in IC conflict.

Underlining relevant part.
And seconding it more than I've ever seconded anything on a forum before (aside from maybe pictures of a disgruntled osterich)

I can say from a start that much of playing Muz wasn't all that enjoyable in what she did. She was a monster. But playing that part, with the group I did, what I did. Affecting them. At times doing quite disgusting things. The end product was very enjoyable and made me love a little piece of hateful filth.
I've done quite a lot when RPing that when being done. Has been very, very annoying and more often than not quite unenjoyable. But found them to be a blast afterwards.

My best example is a few years back when playing Mage the Awakening, when my character got a curse on him. Which was a personal timewarp. Causing him to not really flow as he should. Basicly, time passed different for him than for everybody else, and not predicably or in sync. His right leg might move slower while the rest of but his left hand was normal, the left hand was quicker. Ever shiftng. Talking being a mess.
Talking was hell, trying to imagine how your body would react was a pain. And by the end I had managed to make myself almost nauseated by the imagination of how screwed up your ballance system would be.
But when it was said and done? Boy did I feel awesome and oh yes if it wasn't fantastic.

So while I might not have had the best time when doing it, and being sorta annoyed OOCly (and a bit pissed ICly) at the cause of it. After it was just great and got a great reception, everyone else having found it FANTASTIC to roleplay against.

(Will I ever do it again? Hell no, enough time warps for me. next time i'll have learn the rules good enough to always have a counter on for such shit!)

I'm intrigued, Drustai.

If I, for example, play an illiterate peasant who's never been in a fight, and I should get in an IC scrap with a newly formed character (level 50 for instance) who has, ICly, experienced a whole lot more than my peasant ever had... is it in -any- way realistic for my peasant to overpower this veteran simply because I (as a player) have more time on my hands than the player of this level 50? Considering that in a duel I could beat a level 50 with my level 90 while having nothing equipped, and him being fully kitted out on looms and the best at his disposal.

To me, that makes absolutely zero sense. And to say that you can't believably play an experienced and kitted (for instance military) character and at the same time prefer PvE to PvP is just... well, insanity to me. Sure, I understand your point about 'time spent' to get to where you want to be, but I could still spend as much time on you in-game, but gear up on PvE gear instead of PvP gear, which would still rend me useless in a duel because of PvP power and resilience. So that argument doesn't really hold up in my opinion.

I would expect said character to come up with a reason for why he's currently not at his best. That's what I did when I first started leveling Dru back in TBC. Admittedly I power-leveled her and was probably one of the first draenei on DB to hit 70, but for the time I was leveling her I treated her as still recovering from serious injuries sustained when the Exodar crashed on Azeroth. Combined with her deep depression at the time, this explained just why she was so much more vulnerable than she would normally be.

Likewise, I'd consider someone in PvE gear to be someone with outdated gear. Good fighter, but isn't equipped with the newest developments in armor and weaponry, or perhaps is using inferior enchantments and wards on his equipment (as the world is high magic, I consider enchanting and inscribing armor to be the norm). In Areyah's case, who even when armored is only in Contender gear, I consider her arms and armor to be somewhat obsolete for front line combat (her platemail, especially, is somewhat ceremonial). Good enough for personal defense against common threats, but not extensively enchanted and not constructed with the latest forging techniques or the strongest metals.

In both cases, instead of simply treating mechanics as OOC, one can incorporate them into their RP. There are many ways to ICly justify why an experienced combatant isn't as fully capable as they could be at that point in time due to level/gear/etc. Much better, IMO, than simply ignoring it and pretending that they're at their 100% best even when they're level 50.

What about my Night Elf Druid then Drustai?

Her story has her as an Ex-Sentinel gone Druid. Previously, when I got access to the game, I had some pretty decent healer gear, and primarily, yes, I was a healer.

But that's just making game mechanics work for me as a PvPer, not as an RPer. ICly, my character still has a few thousand years worth of Sentinel training under her belt, can still hold her polearm with pride, and can still fire an arrow straight and true like the average Sentinel down in Feathermoon Stronghold. I don't realistically want to get rid of this background knowledge because it's an integral part of her character. Even if she can't wield a bow in-game, I still RP her as being able to use one (And has used one).

Even then, I can always explain her healer spec as a desire to protect and nurture those she cares for, and those she works with on the battlefield, her Motherly instinct taking over and all that.

But what happens if she gets into a 1vs1 fight PvP? I don't have the time with my job to gear her dual spec, and I'm not even that confident I have the skill to play a Feral that well, nevermind bloody Boomkin! Does that mean I have to make her an incapable fighter?

I find that's why I prefer using all three of the aforementioned methods, rolls, emotes, and PvP. Roll fights against strangers, emote fights against people I trust, and PvP if I'm in a group conflict.

What would you say in my individual case, may I ask?

Drustai wrote:Roleplaying isn't about making yourself, the player, feel good. It's about accurately and faithfully portraying the role of a character in a fictional universe.


Of course, this is where someone says, "But it's just a gaaaaame, it's about fuuuuun!"

Yes. Yes it is.

And, Drustai, I've got another one for you!

My Paladin is also a healing spec. Or I should say; "Holy". She is all about either healing the good, or smiting the wicked. In-character, she can only call the Light to harm warlocks and undead. When she does, she is dangerous and powerful, but when she gets into a fight with anything else, her sword and shield will have to do.

To realistically play that, according to do, I would need to:
> Keep my Paladin for healing and general RP.
> roll a warrior alt for her and gear it up to be able to deal with fights against not-warlocks and undead, including those of the alliance.
> Roll a (fire) mage to be able to fight against the dead and the warlocks, since a fire mage most closely resembles "smiting stuff" through game mechanics while still delivering enough damage to fight at an equal level. (Holy paladin or Holy/Disc priest just don't deal the damage to be able to duel).

Perhaps you would be willing to do that, I am not. So in WPVP I just heal folks and ignore the occasional denounce on a living, and in RP I will either fight as a warrior who's quite capable of handling herself with a shield and sword, or as an AVATAR OF RIGHTEOUS RETRIBUTION pew-pew-ing evil with holy fire.

And you know what? It's been fun.

I've never used PVP to settle an RP dispute. I've been here since day 1.

Saying it -will- come up is silly, because it only happens if you allow it to happen. I shouldn't have to PVP "just in case" someone decides that is the only way to settle a dispute. I'll simply tell them to do one.

I pvp, I have pvp gear, I've had several characters pvp geared over the time I've been playing the game. However, that doesn't mean I have any interest in settling my IC issues with it's mechanics.

Ledgic, for example, is my strongest character physically. He's been through pretty much everything you conceive and come out the other end. I make absolutely no excuses for his strength, because he's done enough to have become that strong. However, I'm combat, and currently rogues (in the other specs) are laughable in PVP compared to quite a few classes/specs.

At no point will I enter a duel and compromise the character i've built up, just so someone can use their pvp gear.

Pao wrote:It kind of sucks for healers though.

In PvP, you need healers: in WPVP in particular healers are invaluable. But dueling as a healer isn't fun for anyone involved. In most duel tournaments, healing specs are banned. It takes forever to finish a match and you're just stalling your inevitable defeat, unless you outgear your opponent to such a ridiculous degree that you can slowly batter them -- which takes even longer most of the time.

I don't regret going healing on Paozi and I usually take his spec IC, but I have to admit I avoid dueling with him because duels as a healer are a very sore pain in the butt.

This I feel to be true, going 1v1 with a healer is a pain in the behind. When there are trainings and I'm taking Emrys, I often stand on the sideline and heal all that have lost te duel. We also did some wargames IC in the past, and in a 3v3 you can excell as a healer.

Another thing with dueling as a healer is that your spells are gamemechanicwise not as effective as they would be IC. If I were to fight an Ebon Knight or Forsaken with Emrys they would ICly be in a world of pain and I would even be able to harm them by casting a heal on them...

Another thing I have done with Emrys in IC trainings is trying to teach PvP mechanics in an IC manner, at one point I teached a little group of priests how to 'fakecast'. I believed it to be a lot of fun to translate that kind of OOC PvP thing into IC.

And the most epic 1v1 duel I ever had on Emrys was in the patch of Cataclysm that prepared for Mop, when Disc priests actually did some damage. Solanum and I had a trainingfight together with the other soldiers and it raged on for over 15 minutes. It was like an exact counter of darkness vs light and it was beautiful.

I'm thankful for healers sucking in PVP. Do any of you remember back when all healers (including druids) actually had enough damage to take down each other with some excellent play (back when OOM was a thing and healers had lots of damage)

Nobody could stand up to a healer 1v1 which is weird because support by definition shouldn't be useful in 1v1.

Roleplaying isn't about making yourself, the player, feel good. It's about accurately and faithfully portraying the role of a character in a fictional universe.

This is the craziest thing I've ever read on these forums!

I never use rolls for my emote fights, I use common sense and know my characters weaknesses. I decide an outcome with my fightee and let it play out with fun emotes. Game mechanics shouldn't be played in roleplay all the time, otherwise I think I'll start resurrecting every-one that dies.

I have to agree with Grim here, you make roleplay sound like a job you need to study for, rather than enjoy. I didn't read anything on Light lore to play my character, he was completely built from people teaching him IC, like Jeanpierre, Eloresh..Osmand etc.

If you wish to play a silver tongued character, it is required that you out of character are able to express yourself, and communicate.
If you play the jester whom can make anyone laugh, it requires you to have a sense of humour.
If you play a brilliant mastermind, whom trough deductive reasoning and acting upon his or her findings can take control of most situations, you need a certain amount of intelligence.
If you wish to play a wise old man, whom can guide those around him with his worldly experience and knowledge, you might need a bit of wisdom, insight and some knowledge of the lore.
If you play a combatant, whom trough many a battle has learned the strengths and weaknesses of those whom he might face in battle, and has adapted to these trough practice, you require a basic understanding of the game mechanics, and an hour a week to get the finest gear possible.

If you do not wish for levels and gear, and PVP ability to hold any effect upon the strength of a character, what should define a characters strength?

And how do you prevent it from (when the combatants end up fighting against eachother OOC'ly) turning into a a drama mess filled with god-emotes and accusations?

Grim wrote:

Roleplaying isn't about making yourself, the player, feel good. It's about accurately and faithfully portraying the role of a character in a fictional universe.

This is the craziest thing I've ever read on these forums!

I think it make sense.

Look at most people who participate in a sport.
Let us say Football since most of us are European and it's the biggest sport (I believe) here.
Yes, I would gather most people who play on a hobbiest level have a lot of fun playing. But the reason they play is likely different.
They play because they have/had a dream.
They play to spend time with the people on the field.
They play to do as well as they can.
You see where I'm going.

Through those things they all enjoy it. Yes, they have fun playing football, but it's not REALLY the act of passing around a sphearically shaped pouch of airfilled leather that is the fun. It's what they get out of it. It's the underlying issue that the activity satisfies that gives you the satisfaction.

When it comes to Roleplaying.
Personally, I roleplay because I want to be, and experience, things that I am not. They don't need to be FUN things. Just different.
At times not so different.

They started very, very simple.
I heard what it was (in more than a "lol dungeons and dragons lame" fashion). And thought "Cool, I want to be an elf and slay dragons!".
(I was fourteen, sue me!). My first character was basicly a Legolas ripoff. Elf soldier, blonde, used a bow, named something on L (actually not legolas, friend whom helped me create character was smart enough to "stop").

But just look at it. I didn't "want to have fun". Simplest way would just be to put in a funny movie in the VHS/DVD player ... not sure if we had a DVD player yet or if we got that year after ...
I wanted to KILL DRAGONS! (Something no one really does in that game since a dragon kills an army alone).
Since what I want to do when I RP has evolved. And I always go "Hey, wouldn't it be fun to roleplay a bit next wekend?" Etc.
But I don't set out, when the RPing starts "okay, fun fun fun". I start "okay, what do I want to play?" And find something I want to explore. At times something I know. At times something knew.
And no, it's not as pretentious as all this.
It's just that I don't roleplay in "oh, fun fun fun!" way. I roleplay as a way to express myself and experience new things.Which I find enjoyable.

So, yes I (most likely Drus to or why be here?) enjoy ourselves immenensly when roleplaying. We just get the enjoyment out of the act. We don't set down "okay, let's just fool around!" We set down "okay, let's live this!" and thus we have fun.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:I never use rolls for my emote fights, I use common sense and know my characters weaknesses. I decide an outcome with my fightee and let it play out with fun emotes. Game mechanics shouldn't be played in roleplay all the time, otherwise I think I'll start resurrecting every-one that dies.

I have to agree with Grim here, you make roleplay sound like a job you need to study for, rather than enjoy. I didn't read anything on Light lore to play my character, he was completely built from people teaching him IC, like Jeanpierre, Eloresh..Osmand etc.

The point Drustai is getting at is that you should have the qualifications to be what you want your char to be. If your entire lore knowlegde of the light is based on other people teaching you in character, I'm fairly sure you didn't start off as an expert on the light. Like if I want to roll a young acolyte of the light, I don't really need much knowledge because I am expected to be unknowledgable by default. However if I want to roll an old, venerable priest who has served the light for his entire life and is a high priest or something, I need to be able to back that up with sufficient knowledge of the light.

What I personally think is: Effort -should- be a requirement to play the awesome/high ranking/high society/revered character roles: You can't just run around in your starter gear with no knowledge of how the light works and tell everybody at the bar about how you're totally using the light to not get drunk so you can drink much more than everybody else and still claim to also be a high ranking paladin.

I'm not subscribing to the mentality that you need 2k rating in arenas to play a skilled combatant, but I do agree that in order to roleplay a character who is more knowledgable/revered/powerful/cunning than somebody else, you'd also need to put in more effort behind the scenes to make sure your character doesn't look ridiculous.

EDIT: What Solanum said pretty much.

Solanum wrote:If you wish to play a silver tongued character, it is required that you out of character are able to express yourself, and communicate.

Yep.

Solanum wrote:If you play the jester whom can make anyone laugh, it requires you to have a sense of humour.

Sounds about right.

Solanum wrote:If you play a brilliant mastermind, whom trough deductive reasoning and acting upon his or her findings can take control of most situations, you need a certain amount of intelligence.

Sure.

Solanum wrote:If you wish to play a wise old man, whom can guide those around him with his worldly experience and knowledge, you might need a bit of wisdom, insight and some knowledge of the lore.

Alright. Yep.

Solanum wrote:If you play a combatant, whom trough many a battle has learned the strengths and weaknesses of those whom he might face in battle, and has adapted to these trough practice, you require a basic understanding of the game mechanics, and an hour a week to get the finest gear possible.

What... No. No you don't. You need a fundamental understanding of how fighting works. Your list makes absolutely no sense when put into this context. All of your other points were related to real life experiences and personalities where as you're saying to realistically portray a decent fighter, you need to play arena. Brilliant logic.

There is no level requirement for role-playing. If some of you need to spend hours upon hours to create a character to your standards, fair enough. Not everyone has to do that. I certainly don't and I have never been called out on any of my characters.

I agree, Ix, that characters should be developed before achieving positions such as Archmage or Minister, but we're all here for fun (if you're not, then that's too bad) and a lot of people on this server have real life occupations/studies that take up half their time. They come online to relax and immerse themselves in a world. If it takes a lot more for you to be immersed, that's your own problem as far as I'm concerned.

What, people do PvP for IC combat? O.o

I see absolutely no way one relates to the other there. PvP'd for years up until I started RP last summer, and I'd never, ever put them together except in large-scale engagements that are supposed to feel like war. For small-scale combat where your char's IC weaknesses/strengths/knowledge should play into it, that's -all- that should play into it.

I have no idea why anyone would want to throw PvP into that, unless I'm very much missing something, lol!

Solanum wrote:And how do you prevent it from (when the combatants end up fighting against eachother OOC'ly) turning into a a drama mess filled with god-emotes and accusations?

Roll fights! With added emphasis on bonuses coming from what you're good at, nerfs where applicable from wounds sustained, morale diminished, and things you're weak against.

In a fight between Senariul and Solanum, I wouldn't go PvP because I've been away for four months. That doesn't mean Sen has been sat on his ass for the past 4 months, he's still been fighting, learning, doing stuff, but you'll have a significant advantage over me when it comes to gear and levels (due to OOC conflicts), and I don't know you well enough to do an emote fight so I'd resort to rolls usually. I know Solanum well enough however to say how an emote fight should go, so this leaves me with a bit of a problem.

Sure, Sen has his fighting experience from pre-Silvermoon, but Solanum is the leader of a Warband, of course the victory is going to go to him, even despite our OOC differences. So in an emote fight, he'd win, however months down the line when I'm geared and levelled and if the situation arose where Sen and Sol came to a fight using PvP and Sen won, it'd go against what I believe should happen, even if I am the victor.

And with rolls? Considering it's Warlock against Warlock, there'd be no Bonuses or Nerfs because it's the same class fighting, and it would literally depend on the players rolls rather than skill in combat that would ultimately decide the winner leaving me with a bitter taste in my mouth if Sen won.

Just going to say Sol, that these next few paragraphs aren't aimed at you, but at this thread in general.

I think the important thing is to just talk with your enemy or opponent before initiating an IC fight. IC representation should not be judged by OOC unless both parties are comfortable with fighting PvP style, nor should rolls just diminish IC backstory for the sake of RNG unless both parties are comfortable with it, nor should emote fighting be initiated without both parties having a clear idea of what the other side are comfortable with (injury, dismemberment, win/lose, death).

You cannot point to just ONE thing and say "Yup, this is the de facto way of RPing because I said so". Nobody can force RP upon another that they disagree with, nor should they. Each party should be comfortable with any RP that is going on, whether that's conflict or otherwise, and anyone that disagrees with that, or shuns another for not subscribing to the same way of though does not deserve a place in the RP community IMO.

Vaell wrote:
What... No. No you don't. You need a fundamental understanding of how fighting works. Your list makes absolutely no sense when put into this context. All of your other points were related to real life experiences and personalities where as you're saying to realistically portray a decent fighter, you need to play arena. Brilliant logic.

I have a little experience with archery, also with swordsmanship (granted, only with a Daito instead of a European longsword or greatsword) as well as some unarmed combat. (in fact, several other Japanese weapons as well, but that's besides the point)
However, I must say that my knowledge of the workings of demonology and fel-magic are lacking in real life.
Which is why for these mechanics I much rather rely upon the game mechanics, then making up my own spells and have their power and effect depend on the size of my opponents e-peen.

Which is why for these mechanics I much rather rely upon the game mechanics, then making up my own spells and have their power and effect depend on the size of my opponents e-peen.

I can only speak for myself here, but if you were to write a convincing couple of lines telling me about your amazing fireball that eats away living flesh with parasitic Fel-fleas that spread across everywhere touched by the splash damage, I'd let you do it, so long as you were being serious about it.

I can't say I know much about spell-casting either, but that hasn't stopped me from reading the numerous user written guides on magic and its various schools and using what has been written as a way to enhance my RP.

Edit: Come to think of it, you might not know much about spell-casting either but you were more than happy to create a mind-reading spell when it was convenient, and if I remember correctly, I also accepted that because you wrote it in a convincing manner.

Solanum wrote:
Which is why for these mechanics I much rather rely upon the game mechanics, then making up my own spells and have their power and effect depend on the size of my opponents e-peen.

Which lacks creativity. The game doesn't have 'player made spells' because that would be near impossible to impliment (well, give it 10 years..!) but making up your own spells is incredibly fun.

Vaell wrote:but making up your own spells is incredibly fun.

Agreed. It's one of my favorite things to do in RP.

You know you can't actually enforce any rule-set on another player and you've no real choice but to be open that not every player is going to want game mechanics/level/skill in pvp to decide who is stronger right? If you refuse to do that then it's like avoiding the "attempts to" rule.

The biggest reason I personally started using IC duels a lot was very very simple.
Nine times out of ten I simply didn't have time for a rollfight (that would be filled with drama whispers of "BUT I R SO STRONG!!!! CUZ ARMOR!") or an emotefight.
Since both take an INCREDIBLE amount of time to RP out. Standard emotefights take more than half an hour, rollfights aren't much quicker.
For action that might last for five.

It feels extremly disjointed and pulls me out of the RP.
Thinking up the "cool emotes" etc, typing speed. Stuff happening that might make people look away, other chats.
All those make's it so there might be one emote a minute, or one every two minutes.

It drags out something painful and nine times out of ten looks flat out silly for onlookers. https://youtu.be/z9j-L7lJrrI (Yes I know that's a horrid example, I'm making a point!)

A duel is quick and efficnent.
And you can just put your imaginaton on afterwards and make it look pretty in hindsight.
Like how Muzjhath wealded her bow in Melee as a cutting weapon since it had blades atatched to it (Basicly BT-Illadan bow without particle effects). Yet nowhere in the game is it represented. Yet I always saw her fighting like that, when it came to melee she used her bow and a longknife as weapons.

I just inserted it afterwards. Instead of spending half of might night describing it in emotes.

Yes, at times emotefights are awesome and epic.
Nine times out of then? THey just suck away most RP that you could have had.

One of my characters was a massive manwhore for the longest time and would sleep with anything that would open its legs for him. Male, Female, Troll, Human, Draenei... If it was Humanoid, he'd go for it.

In situations where I was unsure of the characters age/maturity, or I just wasn't in the writing mood to spend an hour or two doing the dirty, I would just do a fade to black where the obvious deed would have taken part in that time lapse, and a quick OOC /w would just clarify if there was anything special or unusual to the act.

Although I've not had chance to do this for a conflict, if you are really not wanting to spend a lot of time on an RP fight, I see no reason against discussing OOC through whispers who would win in a fight, coming to a conclusion, and writing a couple of paragraphs in /e to describe what has gone on. To use my earlier example of a fight between two Warlocks, Senariul and Solanum, I'd imagine it would go something like this;

Senariul erupts into a vicious fight with Solanum Devilsgrave, the attacks are brutal, vicious and full of pure unbridled rage. The reckless youth Senariul is barely making Felcaster Devilsgrave break a sweat however as the more senior and tempered Warlock holds his own, going to extra lengths to ensure the Blonde tearaway does not put extra lives in danger with their duel. The fight should have been a battle for the ages that would have been told for generations to come, yet due to Devilsgrave superior fighting skill and prowess he quickly subdues the younger Warlock in a submissionary hold, only letting him go when Senariul spits his plea for mercy, showing his submission.

Ledgic Caan wrote:I've never used PVP to settle an RP dispute. I've been here since day 1.

You seem to forget the RP-PvP campaign you had just a few days ago.

Just because it's not 1v1, doesn't mean it isn't "PvP to settle an RP dispute." The dispute in this case being Stromgarde's ownership.

We play on an RP-PvP server, not an RP server. PvP is inevitable for anyone who leaves blueshielded areas.

Really, a large part of my frustration is that, because of all the people who think they don't need PvP gear to portray their awesome fighters, we are left with an Alliance that continually loses RP-PvP campaigns any time we don't terribly outnumber the Horde. By extension, all of my characters therefore consider Alliance soldiers to be inferior to Horde soldiers, regardless of how skilled Alliance RPers might claim to be. Claims just don't cut it when push comes to shove.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:I never use rolls for my emote fights, I use common sense and know my characters weaknesses. I decide an outcome with my fightee and let it play out with fun emotes. Game mechanics shouldn't be played in roleplay all the time, otherwise I think I'll start resurrecting every-one that dies.

Resurrection is IC. It's not just a game mechanic, it's part of the lore. So why wouldn't you? The main limiter on holy resurrections is that the person's soul has to want to come back (though for the sake of RP, it's better to make it an expensive and long and drawn out process capable only by the most skilled priests or paladins).

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:I have to agree with Grim here, you make roleplay sound like a job you need to study for, rather than enjoy. I didn't read anything on Light lore to play my character, he was completely built from people teaching him IC, like Jeanpierre, Eloresh..Osmand etc.

The point Drustai is getting at is that you should have the qualifications to be what you want your char to be. If your entire lore knowlegde of the light is based on other people teaching you in character, I'm fairly sure you didn't start off as an expert on the light. Like if I want to roll a young acolyte of the light, I don't really need much knowledge because I am expected to be unknowledgable by default. However if I want to roll an old, venerable priest who has served the light for his entire life and is a high priest or something, I need to be able to back that up with sufficient knowledge of the light.

This. I wish more people would do what you did, Wulf. There's nothing wrong with not reading the lore/training/etc, as long as they do what you do and actually play students and less knowledgeable/less skilled characters who develop through their RP. My problem is with people who jump onto the scene, with having done no research or leveling or training, while then going around and claiming to be archmagi, or amazing combatants.

I think I'll join on Death Knight Thelos next big world pvp campaign. That guy hits like a truck .