Character combat strength.

Coppersocket wrote:

Vaell wrote:Laziness? Drustai, you have far too much time on your hands. I'm certainly glad more people don't share the same view as you as it would result in a hell of a lot less role-players. RP should never be about a chore - if someone gets something wrong due to lack of research, you simply tell them and help them along.

Again you prove to be an idiot. It's pretty fucking logical.

I like how you edited your post when you realised you wern't even making a point.

Again you prove to have extremely strange and less than satisfying views to anyone with a logical mind.
Your entire point is "I can be whatever I want cuz I want to be, if you dont agree I'll cry and call you elitist"?
Effort is required, like in most things in life.

Right, so no. You've taken what I've said and simplified it into dribble. My view is:
"If I can make a character fully believable, not overpowered but who can hold his own in a fight, why should I OOCly have to level that character and then gear them up?"

Effort as in reading a few bits of lore and then going from there, sure. Why should a level 65 DK hit 90 to claim he has been fighting in several wars? If that person can create a brilliant character, why do they need to put in the extra time just to level? It is entirely pointless. Is it because you think, because you've spent more time OOCly playing the game, you deserve more?

EDIT: If a level 5, fully characterised, brilliantly thought out character came up to you and attempted to mug you - just because you're a level 90, you believe you have superiority over them in every form of combat. That limits role-play massively. I play video games, that doesn't take any effort from me. It is fun. Not everything in life takes effort and role-playing is definitely not one of them.

Vaell wrote:

Again you prove to have extremely strange and less than satisfying views to anyone with a logical mind.
Your entire point is "I can be whatever I want cuz I want to be, if you dont agree I'll cry and call you elitist"?
Effort is required, like in most things in life.

Right, so no. You've taken what I've said and simplified it into dribble. My view is:
"If I can make a character fully believable, not overpowered but who can hold his own in a fight, why should I OOCly have to level that character and then gear them up?"

Effort as in reading a few bits of lore and then going from there, sure. Why should a level 65 DK hit 90 to claim he has been fighting in several wars? If that person can create a brilliant character, why do they need to put in the extra time just to level? It is entirely pointless. Is it because you think, because you've spent more time OOCly playing the game, you deserve more?

Don't have to be 90 to claim you have fought in several wars. Do have to hit 90 to claim to be at equal or greater skill to people who are 90. You can still be a combatant, without being the best most awesome combatant ever.

And yes, they do. It shows they're dedicated to their character. It shows they're willing to do stuff they might not enjoy, for the sake of portraying their character more accurately. I despise grinding, I despise BGs and arenas. I do them anyway, on Dru and Areyah, because I want those two to at least be somewhat capable of defending themselves if they're ever thrust into an IC duel/PvP fight (which do happen). On Saphra, I don't do them and she's still 85, because combat isn't her thing.

I just don't understand this need to always be an awesome combatant. If you don't want to spend time grinding, then don't. Just don't turn around and claim to be an awesome fighter when you'll lose every IC duel or PvP fight you get into. There's nothing wrong with being an average or even poor combatant, as there are many, many other ways in which you can be successful in a conflict.

I'll be honest here. The whole 'if you want an uber powerful char you must earn it through OOC means, such as PVP/PVE gear' sounds a bit exaggerated. It's a game, it's a hobby. Life is hard enough as it is, I don't see why we should harden it with a game. Powerful chars are needed for good storytelling and rp, in Drustai's way of thinking they could simply not exist, only 'cause people don't take everything IC, or want to make endless grinds for gear. I'm all for having more rpers playing peasants and simple people, and you all know I'm much against people getting power IC through OOC means, or through secluded ways(such as this forum, for example). But there's a limit between earning rep IC and that rep earned through OOC ways.

I'm also for merging most of the game mechanics and rp. The complete disjoinment of those two is one, imho, of the reasons why rp is so hard from an outside viewer, seeming that, the more you ignore game mechanics, the more it's quality. But then, if we get to keep everything or most of it IC, including the gear or the skills we have, my char is exalted with the Alliance, won and lost many times against the Horde, and never made a duel. Ah, he's seen the Mogu'Shan Vaults, and my warlock fought Deathwing. There must be a limit, and to be frank, IC duels shouldn't be part of what's needed to be a rper.
I'd love to use them as a visual help, but I'd emote almost anything, unless the other player is okay in dueling, and perhaps in scaling gear, or using only the IC skills(example, my dk doesn't use necromancy, so he wouldn't call minions or use unholy skills in an IC duel), so to make a fight between chars, not toons. And this is said by a player who plays much wow, and if he wanted could grind PVP and PVE gear very fast.

Not everything in life takes effort and role-playing shouldn't definitely be one of them.

Corrected for ye. There's effort and effort. Effort as a chore for a game shouldn't even be discussed.

I have to fully agree with Drus here.

That's the number one reason I RPed Marogg as an OLD fucker.
I knew I just wasn't skilled enough at PvP as a rogue to have him as an orc in his prime. After I realized it and had gotten better. (Marogg started out being something like just "old" with an age in my mind of 55, then aged very quickly the next two-three months f his life when I realised how wrong I was on the timeline)
Well, on topic, I knew I wouldn't be able to stand my ground in RP-PvP, so I RPed him as an old warrior. Who in his prime was among the Hordes best. Twenty to thirty years ago. Him being still alive being a very real badge of his skill.
Was dang satisfying experience.

If we take Muzjhath, my hunter. I RPed her as a very skilled combatant. So I buckled up and grinded BGs and tried to cap myself in Arenas. (Trying to enjoy them as much as possible) for the gear. And practiced in duels for those IC-Duels I knew would come. Wasn't very enjoyable. But well, dedication.

I am of the opinion that when you RPsomething. You make sure you know what it is.
If you RP a herbalist healer? Read up on herblore, both in game and RL (to translate).
A combatant? Learn the gamemechaincs. The game limits, but be able to use the limits as much as you can, PUSH them!
Etc etc.

One of my biggest griefs in WoW RP is people who hardly care for more than their personal enjoyment. And don't do any work, just project "themselves" as something "else" and fool around.
And most people who do IC healing. Guh "Boom, you're healed!"

Edit:
As for Decs about "Powerful characters"
Drus RPs a quite/very powerful character. Just in a very intelligent way. In a combat encounter, maybe not very strong. But I think few lighties would go hunting her ICly alone if they knew she'd be prepared. Traps of Undeads, etc etc etc.
More ways of power than just your combat strenght.

Vaell wrote:EDIT: If a level 5, fully characterised, brilliantly thought out character came up to you and attempted to mug you - just because you're a level 90, you believe you have superiority over them in every form of combat. That limits role-play massively. I play video games, that doesn't take any effort from me. It is fun. Not everything in life takes effort and role-playing is definitely not one of them.

If he was a fully characterized, brilliantly thought out character, then I'd expect him to know how to mug someone in a way that limits the victim's strengths.

Muggers who mug people that are in full armor and weapons aren't brilliantly-thought-out characters, they're idiots. A good mugger would pounce on people that look rich but look like they are unable to defend themselves. They'd pounce on them with greater numbers, hit them over the head to knock them out, set a trap in their path, or garrote them from behind before they ever realize what's happening. Perhaps they'd surround them, threatening and intimidating while waving around weapons, hoping they'll give up the goods without a fight.

Most criminals actually aren't good at fighting, and seek to avoid fighting. Most mugging is about intimidation, not actual fighting. When it is about fighting, it's usually about stacking the cards in your favor and not getting into a straight fight.

The character would never be able to stand up in a straight fight, but all that means is that they should never get into a straight fight. They can succeed through other means, like I said.

I can't say that I care largely for either roll, emote or dueling. It doesn't matter as long as you can back up what you say.

If you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk.

Spoiler:

Muzjhath wrote:Edit:
As for Decs about "Powerful characters"
Drus RPs a quite/very powerful character. Just in a very intelligent way. In a combat encounter, maybe not very strong. But I think few lighties would go hunting her ICly alone if they knew she'd be prepared. Traps of Undeads, etc etc etc.
More ways of power than just your combat strenght.

Yup, exactly. Dru outright avoids any fight that isn't stacked in her favor if she can help it. When she ran across Vashnarz while scavenging corpses after a battle in Kun-Lai, she tried her utmost to intimidate Vashnarz into fleeing by claiming she could raise all of the corpses with a snap of her finger (which she couldn't, because she hadn't prepared them). The last thing Dru wants is to get into a straight or "fair" fight, as she almost always loses those (especially when ambushed or surprised), and so she'll only engage in fights that she knows that she will win. She'll also flee the moment things turn south.

Dru follows the "Zsinj" strategy (for those who have read the Star Wars EU): "No matter what the odds look like, if the enemy has chosen the battleground, he has more resources than we're aware of. It becomes imperative to choose a new battlefield, one the enemy can't have prepared."

Just because you can't win in a straight fight, doesn't mean you can't still win. You just have to be smart about it, and seek alternative paths to your goal.

Drustai wrote:Just because you can't win in a straight fight, doesn't mean you can't still win. You just have to be smart about it, and seek alternative paths to your goal.

This ^ In a nutshell, is how i like to do things on Krogon Ic, to which Dru and others can attest.

Drustai wrote:

Muzjhath wrote:Edit:
As for Decs about "Powerful characters"
Drus RPs a quite/very powerful character. Just in a very intelligent way. In a combat encounter, maybe not very strong. But I think few lighties would go hunting her ICly alone if they knew she'd be prepared. Traps of Undeads, etc etc etc.
More ways of power than just your combat strenght.

Yup, exactly. Dru outright avoids any fight that isn't stacked in her favor if she can help it. When she ran across Vashnarz while scavenging corpses after a battle in Kun-Lai, she tried her utmost to intimidate Vashnarz into fleeing by claiming she could raise all of the corpses with a snap of her finger (which she couldn't, because she hadn't prepared them). The last thing Dru wants is to get into a straight or "fair" fight, as she almost always loses those (especially when ambushed or surprised), and so she'll only engage in fights that she knows that she will win. She'll also flee the moment things turn south.

Dru follows the "Zsinj" strategy (for those who have read the Star Wars EU): "No matter what the odds look like, if the enemy has chosen the battleground, he has more resources than we're aware of. It becomes imperative to choose a new battlefield, one the enemy can't have prepared."


Just because you can't win in a straight fight, doesn't mean you can't still win. You just have to be smart about it, and seek alternative paths to your goal.

So many internets for mentioning Zsinj. That was some of the best Star Wars litterature I've read!

Also, I agree. My newest character, Phillip, is a low life criminal with limited combat experience (he's Gilnean and was in the resistance as a scout for some time). I RP him as being better in a fight than random civilians but most people with combat training would probs stomp him -given equal odds-. I've beaten mercs before, but only through incredibly dirty tricks.

I give up in this topic. All I can say, I'm glad this isn't a private server run by your opinions. Just because you need to research extensively to feel like you get the most out of your character doesn't mean others have to as well. Levelling doesn't show dedication. Role-play shows dedication. Simple as that.

Drustai wrote:Do have to hit 90 to claim to be at equal or greater skill to people who are 90.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Why should OOC activity have any bearing whatsoever on RP?

Because you're RPing in a game that has a set frame, and if you ignore the fraim to 100% you might as well just RP on a forum.

Ignoring level difference isn't ignoring the frame a 100%.

It's a game designed primarily for PvE and, to some extent, PvP. It isn't designed for RP, and the gameplay is pretty shitty at fitting with RP. Should we take raids as IC because it's pointless to RP in WoW but ignore the game itself?

We take the elements of the game that are suitable for RP and don't use the ones that aren't. Having level decide a character's strength severely limits RP, and severely limits the accessibility of RP.

Do whatever you like.

Sevelle wrote:

Drustai wrote:Do have to hit 90 to claim to be at equal or greater skill to people who are 90.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Why should OOC activity have any bearing whatsoever on RP?

Because occasionally PvP is IC. Especially on an RP-PvP server. What happens when you win hands-down in emote fights, but then get curb stomped every time you get into an IC duel or IC PvP situation? How do you rectify that?

Also, to repeat myself. All RP requires OOC activity, whether or not you like to admit it. Every time you read WoWpedia to learn lore so that you can properly portray your character, you're using an OOC activity to expand your RP. If you go questing to find a little piece of lore needed for your RP (something I do frequently, a good chunk of my screenshots are of quest text with important lore info), you're doing an OOC activity to expand your RP. Every time you ORGANIZE AN EVENT ON THIS FORUM, you are doing an OOC activity to expand your RP. The Looking for RP forum is there specifically for the purpose of OOCly building RP.

Why is PvP the odd one out? Why is it the one OOC activity that gets shoved under the rug and ignored? Because people don't find it fun? That's what's ridiculous. Like it or not, occasionally you're going to get into an IC PvP fight, whether in a duel with a member of your faction or against RPing members of the enemy faction. Therefore, if you wish to actually portray the skill you claim your character has, you will need to level up, get geared, and practice. Just like reading lore, you OOCly build up your character so that when an actual IC situation comes up, you are able to properly portray your character, whether it be in knowledge or battle.

Refusing to gear and learn how to PvP while playing a battle-hardened awesome fighter is as silly as refusing to read magic lore while playing an archmage, or refusing to read orc lore when playing an orc. Because if you don't, when push comes to shove you won't be able to able to properly and accurately portray your character. When a Dalaran-trained archmage gets asked, "What is the Law of Sympathy?", and he can't answer it because he hasn't read the lore, then the suspension of disbelief comes crashing down around him as he's now forced to either bullshit an answer, say he doesn't know the answer, OOCly ask the other person what the correct answer is so he can answer it properly, or come up with any other reason why he doesn't know such an integral law of magic (and one of the few hard laws WarCraft lore has actually set down for magic). Likewise, when an awesome and skilled fighter gets caught in an IC PvP duel, and loses (or worse, is so low level that he gets owned time and time again by mobs in high level areas to the point he has to avoid RPing in those areas), then again, the suspension of disbelief is ruined and the character is then forced bullshit a reason for why he lost. Or, worst of all, OOCly refuse any IC PvP (whether duels or RP-PvP) so that his "skill" is never called into question through the mechanical medium.

In both cases, there is nothing wrong with actually refusing to do those things. What is wrong is refusing to do them while still claiming to be a skilled or knowledgeable individual, and thus being unable to back it up when push comes to shove. You should not play an archmage if you (the player) haven't read every morsel of lore on magic so that you can actually explain how your magic works. You should not play an awesome fighter if you (the player) haven't geared and trained and prepared for the possibility of IC PvP.

Imagine a Chapterian who decided not to read the massive Book of Revelations (it's over 120 pages IIRC). What happens when he gets called out on it IC? Would you A) ICly admit that you haven't read all of it, or B ) ICly claim to have read all of it (since only the character needs to have read it, not the player, because this is RP), but be unable to answer any questions about its contents? I'd be appalled with anyone who chose B.

It kind of sucks for healers though.

In PvP, you need healers: in WPVP in particular healers are invaluable. But dueling as a healer isn't fun for anyone involved. In most duel tournaments, healing specs are banned. It takes forever to finish a match and you're just stalling your inevitable defeat, unless you outgear your opponent to such a ridiculous degree that you can slowly batter them -- which takes even longer most of the time.

I don't regret going healing on Paozi and I usually take his spec IC, but I have to admit I avoid dueling with him because duels as a healer are a very sore pain in the butt.

Pao wrote:It kind of sucks for healers though.

In PvP, you need healers: in WPVP in particular healers are invaluable. But dueling as a healer isn't fun for anyone involved. In most duel tournaments, healing specs are banned. It takes forever to finish a match and you're just stalling your inevitable defeat, unless you outgear your opponent to such a ridiculous degree that you can slowly batter them -- which takes even longer most of the time.

I don't regret going healing on Paozi and I usually take his spec IC, but I have to admit I avoid dueling with him because duels as a healer are a very sore pain in the butt.

Would you expect a medic to be equal to a frontline footman in a straight 1v1 fight? I wouldn't. Healers are trained as support, and therefore would probably lose any fight where they're forced to take center stage. I see nothing wrong with that. You don't have to win. Such a character would logically wish to avoid any 1v1 fights, because that's not what they're trained or equipped for and they'd know they're at a disadvantage.

I just don't get this desire to win, or even to simply have a chance at winning. Victory isn't what's important. If you play a character who loses their fights because he's trained for and more skilled in other areas, then great! Those people exist, and are just as important to the story as the awesome combatants.

Winning makes me feel good.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, either.

Roleplaying isn't about making yourself, the player, feel good. It's about accurately and faithfully portraying the role of a character in a fictional universe.


Of course, this is where someone says, "But it's just a gaaaaame, it's about fuuuuun!"

Drustai wrote:
Roleplaying isn't about making yourself, the player, feel good. It's about accurately and faithfully portraying a role.

Firstly, roleplaying is a recreational activity. If it didn't entertain people or make them "feel good" then who else but masochists would participate in it?

Moreover, you seem to be equivocating in-game PvP mechanics with accuracy/faithfulness when it couldn't be farther from it. How many soldiers could withstand being struck by hundreds of arrows? How many could shrug off being set on fire as if it were nothing? The only combat medium that grants any semblance of accuracy is emote fighting, which is by far the prevailing mode when it comes to intra-factional RP.

Essentially, you're demanding many hours of work from players for the faint possibility that it might be relevant during cross-factional RP (and even then, any failures in PvP can be easily explained by the uncertainties of combat - even the most seasoned swordsman can't defend himself against a stray arrow, for instance).

It's a conscious choice of players in role-play to bring their characters down to what they deem a 'realistic' level. If you were faithful to the game and the lore, your character would be able withstand being struck by hunderds of arrows, because that's how the game works.

Well no, game mechanics don't translate -that- directly to the lore. Even in the little cutscenes/cinematics there's a lil' more discretion when it comes to what the HERO(i hate this word so much now) can withstand

I wouldn't say it's 1:1, no, but it's far from being 'realistic' either.

Sevelle wrote:

Drustai wrote:
Roleplaying isn't about making yourself, the player, feel good. It's about accurately and faithfully portraying a role.

Firstly, roleplaying is a recreational activity. If it didn't entertain people or make them "feel good" then who else but masochists would participate in it?

Moreover, you seem to be equivocating in-game PvP mechanics with accuracy/faithfulness when it couldn't be farther from it. How many soldiers could withstand being struck by hundreds of arrows? How many could shrug off being set on fire as if it were nothing? The only combat medium that grants any semblance of accuracy is emote fighting, which is by far the prevailing mode when it comes to intra-factional RP.

Essentially, you're demanding many hours of work from players for the faint possibility that it might be relevant during cross-factional RP (and even then, any failures in PvP can be easily explained by the uncertainties of combat - even the most seasoned swordsman can't defend himself against a stray arrow, for instance).

The exact specifics of the duel itself are poor, yes. Like I said, I personally believe emote fights are more creative and more entertaining, and I prefer emote fights when given the choice. But the victory or loss of an IC PvP fight still matter, even if the details of the fight itself are silly and left vague. Emote fights are great when you want the fight itself to be fun and deep, while duels are for when the outcome is more important than the fight itself.

Essentially, I'm not saying IC PvP is better or more fun. Because it isn't (at least, it isn't in WoW. Games with more realistic FPS/skill-based PvP are a different story). But it is inevitable, especially on a PvP server. Therefore, in order to be prepared for the inevitable, a character who claims to be strong and skilled should be prepared for both emote fights and IC PvP, not just one or the other. If they focus on only one, then there will be a break in the suspension of disbelief when they inevitably are faced with the other and are dominated by it.


But yes, I do believe players should spend hours of work developing their character as thoroughly as they can. To me, roleplaying is about playing the role, not about entertaining myself. Faithfully enacting the role is of primary responsibility to me. My personal entertainment comes as a byproduct of that. Ironically, I wouldn't be having fun if I was focusing on my personal fun. Knowing that I've played my character as accurately, realistically, and faithfully as I can is what I find fun, even if it requires me to do a lot of busy work in the process, or to lose in IC conflict.

But then, I am a masochist.


As for game mechanics: IMO, there's nothing wrong with them being somewhat unrealistic, because that's the world we RP in. I'd consider it perfectly feasible for a warrior to use Heroic Leap IC, or a rogue to use Stealth IC, or for people to have dragon mounts (provided they're used sensibly), or for characters to otherwise perform amazing feats of skill that would rival any cheap anime, because that's the way the world is. It's a high magic universe, and we're the heroes in that universe.