Draenei role-play

I would argue that the "certainty" being mentioned is not a certainty of if it exists but a certainty in matters of having faith in it that the draenei pour in alot of faith into the light and the virtues etc so much so that they even have a racial that is IC'ly there to note their devotion even when they are not paladins they can call upon the Gift of the Naaru to heal them. Wheras OOC'ly it's their for some balance.

This is the certainty i think people are speaking of.

We are all certain it exists but it doesn't mean we have faith in something. I am certain steam tanks work but many would not place their faith in it now.

Burgen wrote:Auchenai were regarded as evil by the Sha'tar as their are quests to basically put a stop to their necromancy upon the graves of their ancestors.....their is no if and or buts....their as a bad as the scourge and were effectivley wiped out by the light loving Sha'tar a majority of draenei crushing the wayward minority.

You cannot be Necromantic and have a connection to the light their are absolutes,in-absolutes as well in cases but necromancy and fel are two powers that are completely opposite to the message and nature of the light.

They were necromancers prior to their fall, too.

The Auchenai were not wiped out for using necromancy. They had summoned and communed with the spirits of the dead for thousands of years as a respected order of Light worshipers, using shadow magic in this task. What they were wiped out for was for defiling the spirits that they had once shepherded.

You mean this lore? http://www.wowpedia.org/Auchenai

Drustai wrote:

Zaraj wrote:How being a necromancer AND a follower of the Light works I'll not even think about.

Because being a necromancer does not mean one is necessarily evil.

Burn in righteous fire!

Burgen wrote:You mean this lore? http://www.wowpedia.org/Auchenai

News flash: WoWpedia isn't written by the devs. Do you quote Wikipedia as a proper source when writing research papers?

I've actually gone through every parsel of Auchenai lore, in the game and in the novels. I've been playing an ex-Auchenai for 7 years and I've studied everything available.

The most prominent case is Nemuraan. Light-worshipping Auchenai, who hasn't fallen to madness. Summons an army of ghosts to assist the Alliance in saving Kurdran Wildhammer from the Shadow Council, and proceeds to heal Kurdran's wounds with the Light.

The draenei studied him, those large eyes unblinking, and Danath knew the stranger was somehow testing the truth of his words. At last he nodded. "That is a noble goal," he stated, and stepped out of the doorway to stand before Danath. "I am Nemuraan, one of the last of the Auchenai," he introduced himself. "We were the priests of our people, and cared for the dead here in Auchindoun." Danath introduced himself and Talthressar, and both bowed slightly.

...

They continued to walk for some time, finally stopping at another door. "This marks the start of the Shadow Labyrinth," Nemuraan explained. "Behind it lies the Horde." He turned and studied Danath closely, his face somber yet his eyes alight with ... anticipation? Joy? "I would aid you further, if you will permit it," he offered softly, "though I warn that the type of aid might prove unsettling to some."

Danath frowned and raised an eyebrow. "What do you mean?"

The Auchenai bowed his head. "In my keeping are the souls of all our departed," he explained humbly, hands clasped on his staff. "At times of great need I may call upon them. I would do so now—they would relish the chance to cleanse these halls of the orcs' foul touch."

Danath was a little shaken at the matter-of-factness with which this was presented. He knew the Horde's death knights were orc spirits placed in human bodies, so clearly spirits could survive beyond death, although he'd always been taught the dead should be left to rest
in peace. But if Nemuraan was a protector of the dead, it would be all right if he asked for their help . . . wouldn't it? Danath had said to Turalyon earlier that the ghosts of the men who had fallen would fight with him when they found the orcs, but he'd been speaking metaphorically. It looked as though the ghosts of someone's fallen took such comments literally. Finally Danath shrugged. Such questions were for those of a more esoteric mind-set, and from a military standpoint he could certainly use all the help they could get."

"I am honored," he told Nemuraan. "And if it would not disturb or anger them, we would welcome their assistance."

Nemuraan nodded and bowed deeply, clearly pleased with Danath's reply, then straightened and raised his staff high. Violet light blossomed down the length of the hallway, filling it with light and awakening answering gleams all along the ceiling. These gleams grew brighter rather than dimming, their colors shifting from violet to blue to green to gold as they descended and expanded, gaining shape and definition. The one nearest Danath and Nemuraan altered to reveal a massive figure, clearly a draenei but burlier than Nemuraan and wearing ornate plate armor rather than robes, a giant warhammer across one shoulder and a long cape trailing behind him. Others came into crisp focus as well, filling the room.

And they were all staring at Danath and his men.

A wind sprung out of nowhere, rustling Danath's cape, stirring Talthressar's long hair. A deep coldness seized Danath and he began to shiver uncontrollably. The spectral warriors advanced, beautiful and implacable, and Danath was rooted to the spot in sudden terror. Their leader extended a hand and brushed Danath's forehead with it. The human cried out as images filled his mind—young Farrol and Vann in the stables before departing. Vann's words cut off as an orc club had silenced him forever. Crouching low over his horse, living so the dead could know peace. Sky'ree, returning riderless. Bodies ... so many of them, my boys, my boys, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry—The image of the Horde, strong and armed, racing over fertile fields that were not Azeroth, Hundreds of fields, hundreds of worlds, innocent people dying as a green wave that did not belong in that place snuffed the life out of it. Moving on to the next, and the next—

"Your soul is troubled, Danath Trollbane of the Alliance," said the spirit, though his face did not move. The words were in his mind. "You grieve for the fallen. Though you have come here with grief and rage in your heart, the true reasons that drive you are good and just. Be at peace. I am Boulestraan. once known as the Blinding Light, and my army and I shall aid you in your struggle."

...

"This way!" Nemuraan urged once the room's defenders were dead, and led them across the blood-spattered chamber to another door. The Auchcnai had not attacked any of the orcs himself, though his very presence and the light from his staff had seemed to confound them and make them easier to dispatch. This new door opened onto a much smaller room, and occupying half the space was a strange wooden framework like a rough table with raised crossbeams.

...

"Light... I don't even know where to start." Danath said, his voice thick, staring at the bloody, broken body.

"I do ... if you will permit me." Danath's head whipped up. Nemuraan had come forward, his staff glowing. "I am a priest of my people. I would do what I can to heal him. But you should know—your friend's spirit clings to life only tenuously. I can try to heal him, or I can case his crossing. If you would rather let him pass.

"No!" Danath cried. "I've seen too many—please. If you can heal him, please do it."

Danath and Talthressar stepped back as the draenei extended a hand. He placed it on Kurdran's head, matted with dried blood, and lifted his staff with the other hand. Closing his eyes, the Auchcnai began to pray.

Danath gasped softly as a pure, gentle radiance limned Nemuraan's form. He didn't know the words, but they calmed his heart. The glow brightened at the draenci's hand where it rested on Kurdran's brow. The radiance increased, until it was so bright Danath reluctantly closed his eyes against it. He'd seen this before. This being from another world, this draenei, so strange in appearance to him— he was wielding the Light, Just as Turalyon did.

- Beyond the Dark Portal

I happen to know what I'm talking about. Necromancy and the Light are not mutually exclusive. Not when the necromancy is done for pure and wholesome purposes, as the Auchenai once used it for.

From what i gather is he is one of the Un-corrupted non-necromantic Auchenai whom use's the light to beseech the aid of the dead much like say Uther appearing before people or perhaps a shaman beseeching the dead to gain some advice from those long past.

A stark difference to necromancy which summons the dead and binds those to the summoners will. This draenei however is clearly a draenei of the light whom protects and cares for the bodies of the dead and as thanks for such if he so wishes to call upon the aid of the dead then the souls of these beloved lightie draenei's come to his aid....that is what i gather from this i see no necromancy just like i see no necromancy when a shaman communes with the ancestors.

The Auchenai whom use necromancy whom use shadow are the corrupted ones that the Sha'tar destroyed for it is common knowledge that those whom use shadow and the necromantic arts to raise and bind the dead to their will are diffrent to those whom are of the light and ASK for the aid of the long dead to assist them.


I see a true Auchenai Monk of the light here not an Auchenai monk whom employs shadow and necromancy a draeneic man whom looks after the dead and does not desecrate them with shadow. It also explains why he is one of the last Auchenai a last caretaker of the dead the last Lightie Auchenai Monk whereas the rest of them we see ingame are very much the opposite.

ahh this all makes sense on why drussy never hesitated to save peoples lives with necromancy the penny drops

Monrena wrote:ahh this all makes sense on why drussy never hesitated to save peoples lives with necromancy the penny drops

Not really as the act of necromancy is diffrent from "calling" upon the dead the act of necromancy raises and binds the dead against their will to serve their necromantic master he (Nemuraan) do not use shadow. Nemuuran is a Care-taker of the dead he looks after them he is like the rest of his draeneic brothers and sisters a draenei of the light whom protects the sacred dead of his people.

He certainly isn't some shadow/necromantic undead user whom enslaves the dead those sorta folk are no better than the scourge or the val'kyr of the forsaken.

Not quite sure I agree with your conclusion, as I wouldn't cite that passage as practicing of "good necromancy". It seems more akin to that of shamans calling upon ancestral spirits or spirit wolves etc if you ask me. If each case of someone calling upon a spirit was to be called necromancy, then you'd probably have an over-abundant amount of necromancers out there, which is probably not what we associate necros with. Necromancy is what the Lich King used and the consecutive generations of Death Knights use.

The wowpedia article is after all a collection of all lore available regarding said subject, including novels and even the non-canonized RPGs. And it still doesn't mention anywhere that Auchenai were users of necromancy in the name of the Light, prior to their corruption.

Though I suppose "good necromancy" would probably be something akin to "the end justify the means", i.e you forcefully bind spirits to do your bidding for what might be good. A turned death knight using army of the dead to fight some evil demon, for instance. And even in this sense, it strives against everything the Light stands for. As a tool, it is malevolent in its nature, no matter how you turn or twist it.

EDIT: I'd have to agree with Burgen, I suppose the binding of will thing is something that is magnificently different between the example posed in the text and the actual necromancers. This binding is also what makes necromancy malevolent as an art, even if it is used for good.

Burgen wrote:From what i gather is he is one of the Un-corrupted non-necromantic Auchenai whom use's the light to beseech the aid of the dead much like say Uther appearing before people or perhaps a shaman beseeching the dead to gain some advice from those long past.

A stark difference to necromancy which summons the dead and binds those to the summoners will. This draenei however is clearly a draenei of the light whom protects and cares for the bodies of the dead and as thanks for such if he so wishes to call upon the aid of the dead then the souls of these beloved lightie draenei's come to his aid....that is what i gather from this i see no necromancy just like i see no necromancy when a shaman communes with the ancestors.

Both are necromancy.

Shaman communing with the dead is also necromancy.

Just because the word necromancy means "evil" for you, doesn't mean that it's somehow not necromancy when the good guys use the exact same spells. It's the problem with vocabulary. Our modern world has twisted the word of "necromancy" into an evil word. Because necromancy is now an evil word, it makes you unwilling to use it to describe good spells despite them being identical to evil spells. Consider in DnD where all healing spells were initially necromancy, but eventually made conjuration (even though it made no sense) for the sole reason that necromancy is an evil word and conjuration isn't.

Raising the dead is necromancy. Communing with the dead is necromancy. The word necromancy literally means to divine through the dead. To divine the future by calling on the dead. In the real world, necromancy and shamanism were strongly interconnected.

There is good necromancy, and evil necromancy. The original Auchenai practiced good necromancy. They were uncorrupted necromancers. The late Auchenai and the Scourge practiced evil necromancy, they were corrupted necromancers.

The Auchenai whom use necromancy whom use shadow are the corrupted ones that the Sha'tar destroyed for it is common knowledge that those whom use shadow and the necromantic arts to raise and bind the dead to their will are diffrent to those whom are of the light and ASK for the aid of the long dead to assist them.

The original Auchenai used both Light and Shadow. Because, once again, the draenei have a different view of the Light than humans. They view Light and Shadow as two sides of the same coin, both necessary for the universe.

Auchenai death priests could see into the spirit realm. They did this with a potion. That ability is a Shadow ability.

"In the Light, we all cast shadows brother/sister." - Draenei Priest Trainers, World of WarCraft

"Creatures of the void are naturally chaotic. They are a necessary part of the universe, but they must be kept in check by the Light." - A'dal, World of WarCraft

"Regrettably, there is nothing that can be done to stop this cycle. It is a facet of the naaru condition - without the void, the Light cannot exist." - D'ore, World of WarCraft

"Stranger... I was not forthright with you. Once you drink this potion, you will forever see into the world of the dead. This recipe that you drink of is a rite of initiation for all death priests of Auchindoun. Many go mad after its effects have taken hold. Seeing the dead is ... shocking." - Nitrin the Learned

Spiritual Sight - Used by Auchenai. Allows the caster to see incorporeal beings for 2 min. School: Shadow.

Call of the Spirits - Shaman spell, World of WarCraft The Roleplaying Game Sourcebook. Description: You beseech the surrounding spirits to help you on a specific task. School: Necromancy.

Spiritual Projection - Arcanist and Healer spell, World of WarCraft The Roleplaying Game Sourcebook. Description: By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an incorporeal form onto another plane altogether. School: Necromancy.

I see a true Auchenai Monk of the light here not an Auchenai monk whom employs shadow and necromancy a draeneic man whom looks after the dead and does not desecrate them with shadow. It also explains why he is one of the last Auchenai a last caretaker of the dead the last Lightie Auchenai Monk whereas the rest of them we see ingame are very much the opposite.

Communing with the dead is shadow. Summoning the dead is shadow.

The Auchenai in-game are evil, yes. But they aren't evil because of using necromancy, or because of using shadow, because they were doing both of those for thousands of years. They're evil because they've taken to defiling and exploiting the dead, enslaving and corrupting them.

By the way, Anduin Wrynn uses both Light and Shadow, too. There isn't a "holy" Psychic Scream. There isn't a "holy" Mind Control. There is no "holy" Shadow Protection. The idea that the two are mutually exclusive is a concept that has only ever been made up by players, and has no lore basis, period. Even Light-following priests use some Shadow spells. The original Auchenai did not use a "holy" Raise Dead, or a "holy" Spiritual Sight. They used Raise Dead, and Spirit Sight, both Shadow spells.


If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. Just because it's a good and wholesome use of it doesn't make it suddenly not necromancy, or not shadow, just because you think the word is evil. Holy priests use some Shadow spells, and this is what the Auchenai were doing.

Eats Popcorn and slurps from cinema sized soft drink cup

Also I would like to add that ultimately this debate is impossible to bring to an end.

Necromancy is frowned upon in most civilized areas, especially alliance territories, shamanism generally isn't (despite any similarities).

References in game are so vague that it's night impossible to find the "truth". The RPG books however are not canon, essentially only the in game references can truly shed light on the truth.

Edit: My typing failed me

Zaraj wrote:Not quite sure I agree with your conclusion, as I wouldn't cite that passage as practicing of "good necromancy". It seems more akin to that of shamans calling upon ancestral spirits or spirit wolves etc if you ask me. If each case of someone calling upon a spirit was to be called necromancy, then you'd probably have an over-abundant amount of necromancers out there, which is probably not what we associate necros with. Necromancy is what the Lich King used and the consecutive generations of Death Knights use.

The wowpedia article is after all a collection of all lore available regarding said subject, including novels and even the non-canonized RPGs. And it still doesn't mention anywhere that Auchenai were users of necromancy in the name of the Light, prior to their corruption.

Though I suppose "good necromancy" would probably be something akin to "the end justify the means", i.e you forcefully bind spirits to do your bidding for what might be good. A turned death knight using army of the dead to fight some evil demon, for instance. And even in this sense, it strives against everything the Light stands for. As a tool, it is malevolent in its nature, no matter how you turn or twist it.

EDIT: I'd have to agree with Burgen, I suppose the binding of will thing is something that is magnificently different between the example posed in the text and the actual necromancers. This binding is also what makes necromancy malevolent as an art, even if it is used for good.

Shamans can either offer boons and persuade the elemental spirits to help them, or they can bind and force them to do their bidding. When a shaman does the latter, does it stop being shamanism? No, it doesn't. Good shamanism, and bad shamanism. (although, you could say that Arcane magic and Mages are the 'bad shamans', since they are defined as dominating and binding the elemental forces instead of providing boons and requesting their aid).

So, why is it suddenly not necromancy if you do the same exact spell but offer boons and persuade the dead spirits to aid you instead of binding them? Necromancy does not mean "binding of will". Summoning the dead is necromancy. Communing with the dead is necromancy. Like shamanism, one can do this in two ways, either they can force the spirit to comply (evil necromancy), or they can persuade the spirit to assist of its own accord (good necromancy).

http://www.wowpedia.org/Necromancer for starters.

Perhaps the word Necromancy is used as an evil word because well generally it is.....take the Lich King for example now let's look at what he did....did he ask the dead to serve him? No he did not....but what he did do however was raise them through the use of shadow to serve under him bound to his will...now this is what we call necromancy the use of shadow to bind a dead person to their will.

Now let us look at Nemuraan...now their was no shadow magic actually involved here i believe it was merely a draenei beseeching aid from the ancestors...now here we see a rather stark contrast truely it is odd...their is no shadow that we can discern to see being used....he freely uses the light to heal now this is strikingly odd and i think i touched correctly upon the subject beforehand.

Talking to the death is not necromancy however you wish to see it to justify the good heartedness of your character afterall i believe Orcs frown upon necromancy.

Alexandros Mograine appearing by his own will infront of Darion Mograine his son...would we call this necromancy? No their was no shadow involved and it was entirely from free will.


And now let us see of the spell schools within World of Warcraft we know of this.....it begins with the Arcane and those mages whom practice it then become corrupted they then seek other forms of power much like Kel'Thuzzad and elves such as Illidan and Kael'thas...now where did these people go? Oh yes...Necromancy and Fel Magic.

Your arguement frankly for "good" necromancy is entirely flawed and most likely it is a flawed attempt to make your character acceptable amongst the community....it really won't work as it makes no sense.

As for Anduin wrynn well from what i got of that quest-line it was something that they never would have thought would come from Anduin...and not something he is encouraged to take a part in...chances are such behaviour will be stamped out of him once he grows older.

"Drustai see's it Drustai's way
So drustai can justify the good of her character
Where their is none"

If you practice Necromancy then you practice something completely diffrent from Nemuraan who clearly respects the dead...a Necromancer does not. the dead answer to those whom they wish to talk to...a necromancer may force it. but in the end Argue all you want...such a matter does not assist in making the Draeneic Roleplay look any better at all.


Also Elemental Spirits are not actually Spirits but shaman terminology for describing in a pagan way the elementals they talk to whom live on a seperate plane as the rest of the mortal races of Azeroth....they are not actually spirits they in the end are binding the elements to their will in some cases though such man-handling is frowned upon by elementals and shamans alike as it does no side any favours.


Not really the same....this good necromancy you speak of is something i have yet to see appear in World of Warcraft nor do i think i will ever see it to be perfectly honest. Nemuraan was frankly a very weak arguement of yourself trying to impose your own view on what is obviouslt a Light Driven character.

Burgen wrote:Now let us look at Nemuraan...now their was no shadow magic actually involved here

This is an assumption. You cannot say there was none involved when it was not directly stated either way.

And now let us see of the spell schools within World of Warcraft we know of this.....it begins with the Arcane and those mages whom practice it then become corrupted they then seek other forms of power much like Kel'Thuzzad and elves such as Illidan and Kael'thas...now where did these people go? Oh yes...Necromancy and Fel Magic.

Necromancy is a school of arcane magic. It is not a separate kind of magic.

Your arguement frankly for "good" necromancy is entirely flawed and most likely it is a flawed attempt to make your character acceptable amongst the community....it really won't work as it makes no sense.

...

"Drustai see's it Drustai's way
So drustai can justify the good of her character
Where their is none"

Hardly, because Drustai is an evil necromancer who dominates and binds spirits to her will. I'm arguing on the case of the original Auchenai, not my own character. So try to avoid ad hominem arguments, thanks.

As for Anduin wrynn well from what i got of that quest-line it was something that they never would have thought would come from Anduin...and not something he is encouraged to take a part in...chances are such behaviour will be stamped out of him once he grows older.

It is still clear and present in-game canon demonstration that priests use both Holy and Shadow, and that the two are not mutually exclusive.

If you practice Necromancy then you practice something completely diffrent from Nemuraan who clearly respects the dead...a Necromancer does not. the dead answer to those whom they wish to talk to...a necromancer may force it. but in the end Argue all you want...such a matter does not assist in making the Draeneic Roleplay look any better at all.

...

Not really the same....this good necromancy you speak of is something i have yet to see appear in World of Warcraft nor do i think i will ever see it to be perfectly honest. Nemuraan was frankly a very weak arguement of yourself trying to impose your own view on what is obviouslt a Light Driven character.

Light-driven characters use some Shadow spells. This is canon. You can argue that the specific incident was not a Shadow spell (even though there is nothing to indicate that it wasn't), and you can argue that it wasn't a Necromancy spell, but that doesn't change the fact that Light-following characters do use Shadow spells, and that draenei lore outright states that they have less hostile view of Shadow than other races.

[quote="Drustai"]

Burgen wrote:Now let us look at Nemuraan...now their was no shadow magic actually involved here

This is an assumption. You cannot say there was none involved when it was not directly stated either way.

And now let us see of the spell schools within World of Warcraft we know of this.....it begins with the Arcane and those mages whom practice it then become corrupted they then seek other forms of power much like Kel'Thuzzad and elves such as Illidan and Kael'thas...now where did these people go? Oh yes...Necromancy and Fel Magic.

Necromancy is a school of arcane magic. It is not a separate kind of magic.[/qoute]

I never stated that it was a seperate kind of magic what i did state however is that necromancy like fel is corrupting because like arcane it is an un-natural way of controlling things you are dealing with raw power such is evident when you research Rune-Magic aka Titan Magic. Arcane corrupts as does Fel as does Necromancy.

This is exactly why i believe that true Auchenai monks do not wield the shadow or the necromantic arts as it goes against the very things the draenei believe that the draenei know just like it does so for many of the Alliance races.

Shadow and Necromancy have been frowned upon since the First war and is still frowned upon under strict penalties today. A light philosophy does not merge well with the use of shadow magic as such arts go against the message of the light's philosophy. Their is only one grey area in this world and that grey area is those of no-faith towards these powers. The humble blacksmith or the dwarven marksman these who rely on themselves not some shadow/fel or necromantic arts or some floating bits of crystal or some Arch-Bishop in a cathedral.

You might be better to conciser what is right and wrong/ what is moral and immoral in actions and deeds rather than just words. I struggle to see in any system of morals how torturing someone with light can be considered better than saving someone with shadow. Obviously there is more to this than meets the eye, you could argue that using shadow even for good acts could lead you onto a sticky wicket but there ya are, in action at least the balance should be the deed not the name.

Lexgrad wrote:. Obviously there is more to this than meets the eye,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs07cfMuJNE

*transforms into Mekgineer chopper*

Burgen wrote:
Shadow and Necromancy have been frowned upon since the First war and is still frowned upon under strict penalties today.

Source?

Burgen wrote:I never stated that it was a seperate kind of magic what i did state however is that necromancy like fel is corrupting because like arcane it is an un-natural way of controlling things you are dealing with raw power such is evident when you research Rune-Magic aka Titan Magic. Arcane corrupts as does Fel as does Necromancy.

Yes, they do, and I didn't say they didn't.

Shadow and Necromancy have been frowned upon since the First war and is still frowned upon under strict penalties today. A light philosophy does not merge well with the use of shadow magic as such arts go against the message of the light's philosophy.

Shadow is the antithesis of the Light, this is true. The faith of Shadow and the faith of Light are polar opposites. But using shadow the element is quite a bit different from believing in Shadow as a faith. It's definitely not something one wants to get in the habit of using, due to the corrupting effects, but as shown by Anduin I doubt most Lightie priests would completely avoid using some shadow spells like Psychic Scream and Mind Vision.

Also, they are less frowned upon now, seeing as necromancers and warlocks are permitted freely into Alliance cities and allowed to use their arts in defense of the kingdom. Still not welcome, but not killed on sight as they have been in the past.


In any case, that's the last post I'm going to make on this topic. We've derailed from the original point too much.

While taking part of the conversation a bit late, I myself play an un-corrupted Auchenai much as Nemuraan. The character is a Shamanistic warrior & Priest, ingame represented by a Monk. I do not shy about using Shadow spells and abilities in my Roleplaying, admitted those i do are nearly always assistance of the dead, for example asking as spirit to perform Spirit Strike for me, or asking the Spirit's boon in Healing. Yes, they are shadow because what other can ghosts be than beings of shadow. Admitted, not all ghosts are evil, and some even wield the Light even if being dead. Call it Shamanism, call it Necromancy, no matter.

Auchenai were not all corrupted in the beginning. Drustai, the character is a corrupted Auchenai, although not as batshit insane as those that were (before the purges) left in Auchindoun after its destruction.

To me, Necromancy becomes an evil thing when it involves raising the Dead to Undeath. Healing with Necromantic spells, calling forth spirits to commune (not bind), using the life-draining aspects completely normal for spells involving the Shadow in turn are not evil to me. (at least, not as evil as raising the dead/Fel usage. Its still on the gray area, but as pointed out, Draenei had a little different view of the Shadow like the Priest trainer quote says)

EDIT: Good idea. Lets wait for further actions taken promised by Maelmoor mysterious post instead!

Zaraj wrote:I suspect the discussion from here on out could end up about semantics only, so one might as well just leave it there.

Zaraj was right in that this thread would end up being about semantics only.

So let me talk semantics briefly.

(I like talking semantics. I think it's a shame that word has gotten such negative connotation the last few years.)

If your understanding of the word 'necromancy' already inherently contains that it is evil, then obviously no ammount of argument is ever going to convince you that it can be used for good. Likewise, you are not going to acknowledge examples of necromancy being good, because if something is good, you will not see it as necromancy, but as something else. We can call this a value-laden concept of Necromancy; a Drustai said, this has become common in fantasy worlds because of years of the association of 'Necromancy' with over evil.

Drustai here however uses the word 'Necromancy' in a more technical way, closer to its original means: the general communing and spiriting of the dead. This is a value-neutral concept of Necromancy, allowing for the normativity to be enterered at a later stage.

Take a look at the Oxford Online Dictionairy definition of 'Necromancy':

Oxford ONline Dictionairy wrote:noun
[mass noun]
the supposed practice of communicating with the dead, especially in order to predict the future:
alchemy, necromancy, and other magic practices

• witchcraft, sorcery, or black magic in general.

So there you have it. Oxford acknowledges both uses of the word.

Oxford doesn't exist on Azeroth (yet) though, so whether this former sense of the word can be used in Azeroth by our characters remains to be seen. The latter can obviously be used by us, though; with this definition, you can perfectly describe the uncorrupted Auchenai. I am, however, not convinced that the world of Azeroth has known use of this word in this neutral sense. In that sense, I have to side with Zaraj and Burgen in that I think the word 'Necromancy' within the gameworld would be an inappropiate choice for the magic just described, because the second definition given by Oxford is obviously much more prevalent in the world of Azeroth, if not the only accepted definition of the word. In any case, I don't think anyone would argue that this is the how the word is understood by the vast majority of characters and non-player characters in the role-playing world: there can be a small select elite who understands the word differently and clings to the old ways, but those oldies aren't going to be understood by any other characters when they talk about 'Necromancy'.

"Necromancy is the study of magic involving the dead." - The Schools of Arcane Magic, Necromancy

That's the in-game definition, and the one I go with. As such, I personally apply it on a general level to most magic that involves summoning/raising/communicating/interacting with death and the dead. /shrug

I think Drustai won that won.

Also, if you look at the word. It is just necro, greek prefix for death. Mancy, greek work akin to divination.

So death divination.
Anything that has to do with the spirits of the dead have to do with necromancy. The thing is while shamans might use a form of it, they do not call it that. Even if it very much is.
Again, sa Telos said, this is a question of scemantics. People who dislike them are just afraid of them.
Dealing with the dead isn't inheritly evil, or all shaman would be. The question is in presentation.
On Azeroth the presentation of it when using that word has been evil for the last twenty or so year. Doesn't change that it always has been. Or that it always was in Draeneic society.

This thread has evolved to be a fascinating read, a battle of opinions who are both right, and wrong, and everything in between. It's been interesting and informative.

Unfortunately I was asleep as this thread develops, but I'm going to stick some comments in anyway, because I can!

~

I am someone that uses references to game mechanics as the ultimate truth, in-game fluff and quest text as secondary, and books and such as tertiary. Why? It makes things a whole lot easier. Game mechanics provide you with definitive answers.

Can holy priests use shadow spells without losing their faith?
Yub. You don't revert to shadow spec when you cast Psychic Scream.

Do all Dreanei practice the Light?
Yub. They have a racial for that.

Can a Dreanei necromancer still be faithful to the light?
Yub. They have a racial for that.

Is a shaman calling to the spirits aid "necromancy"?
Not defined. Role-play it however you like. For my troll shaman, it was. For the orc shaman next to him, it wasn't.

Before someone starts to shout "POCKET MOUNTS" or "INSTA-PORTALS":
I use what I've learned from the game mechanics in whatever way suits the plot. If I need to be somewhere quickly, lo and behold, mounts sprout out from my toes and portals blink into existence. If travel is a part of the story, and there is room for it to play a role, a portal becomes a big ritualistic spell and mounts are cared for and specifically parked.

I don't think there is, or should be such a thing as the ultimate truth in these matters. It's much more fun that there's some wiggle-room to play with. Most of my characters have their own interpretations of the world around them. Some of those I know to be wrong or even impossible. But it is what my characters believe. The fact that they believe it to be true certainly doesn't mean it actually is.

On a final note:
Draenei are cool dudes.

Thelos summed it up more or less. The lore of Warcraft very rarely deals with shades of grey, and I wouldn't say that the usage of the word Necromancy in WoW is such a blur of neutrality. Both Light and Necromancy are absolutes in what they do, even if to what end differs.

In the end, though, if someone new joins the server and wish to RP a Draenei, they'll be making their own judgement of what their race is about and create their own character. And they will hopefully not log into these forums to read what the opinions of others think they should roleplay their character.

And I would not have it any other way.