Re: Draenei role-play

by **Rashka** Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:31 pm

People dislike space-squid-goats, but poke me if some interesting starts up. I could dust off my old shaman.

by **Thelos** Wed May 01, 2013 6:42 am

Jasmine wrote:People dislike space-squid-goats, but poke me if some interesting starts up. I could dust off my old shaman.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What's 'something interesting' to you? Draenei-specific events? Guilds? Plot developments?

by **Skarain** Wed May 01, 2013 7:37 am

Thelos wrote:
Jasmine wrote:People dislike space-squid-goats, but poke me if some interesting starts up. I could dust off my old shaman.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What's 'something interesting' to you? Draenei-specific events? Guilds? Plot developments?

by **Rashka** Wed May 01, 2013 12:09 pm

Since there rarely is any Draenei RP, anything'd be interesting..!

by **Seranita** Wed May 01, 2013 2:17 pm

To the contrary. I rp one all the time. ;-)

by **Skarain** Wed May 01, 2013 5:28 pm

The Draenei that are spread over many guilds, like Wild Tempest, Holy Lightbringers, Disciples of Light and Order of the Red Dawn (+ many others). There is no central meeting as there have not been a reason to. I wouldn't myself mind participating (or organizing, if i must) in a Draenei racial gathering, or any other race-centered event, if there is a demand for such.

by **Rikochet/Hellbrew** Thu May 02, 2013 8:36 pm

That would be awesome. I dont have much experience in organizing events, I got so many characters I rp on now that I simply float around... But Im all game if you need help.

by **erwtenpeller** Thu May 02, 2013 9:28 pm

Then the Adventurers Guild sounds like a place for you Wink

by **Maelmoor** Sat May 04, 2013 8:35 am

Theres been something planned for quite a while, check out this space later today Wink

by **Zaraj** Sun May 05, 2013 2:12 am

Prolly a dead thread by now, but I'd give my guess that the lack of popularity is due to how they're shown as a one-sides heroic race in WoW and in the lore, and Blizzard's unwillingness to expand further on that. The reason for that probably being the shitstorm that was the controversy with the lore (though imo the orc retcons are far worse) and the "space goats" and all that, which probably killed off the writers' desires to have anything more to do with draenei.

Now they're kinda a joke when you look to quests, items and characters beyond TBC. In Wrath you had that draenei who made a comment about crashing a ship, as well as the draenei that got eaten by a Frostwyrm, only to be assembled from different pieces. In Cataclysm, you had the Last Relic of Argus paired with Velen's "We should flee asap" comment in the pre-launch meeting between the faction leaders.

In the end I think it's probably because we only see them as the heroic fighters opposing the Legion, which is probably the most disinteresting part of WoW lore to be honest. We have no characters in draenei lore that is beyond that. People often make an overemphasis on the Light as an obligatory part of their character when it doesn't have to be, considering there are Mages, Hunters, Warriors etc within the Draenei. People often think of them as a "boring race" because all we've ever seen of them is the lawful good flawless hero. So in the end, it comes down to the player to make a draenei character that can find their place within or without the archetype that is seen as boring while having the character still be a draenei.

Though, I'd preferred draeneis to be more like Akama, as the females kinda ruin the race a bit.

by **Drustai** Sun May 05, 2013 4:38 am

Zaraj wrote:Now they're kinda a joke when you look to quests, items and characters beyond TBC. In Wrath you had that draenei who made a comment about crashing a ship, as well as the draenei that got eaten by a Frostwyrm, only to be assembled from different pieces. In Cataclysm, you had the Last Relic of Argus paired with Velen's "We should flee asap" comment in the pre-launch meeting between the faction leaders.

Well, Wrath also had the draenei quests in Borean Tundra, which were very cool. Also the Icecrown quest line with the infected soldier. Though not being strictly draenei, it was a very prominent showing of the Naaru and gave us one of the best Lightie quotes ever ("The Light does not abandon its champions.") So it wasn't all jokes in Wrath.

Cata I agree, but then Alliance got screwed in general in Cata. The brief draenei quest line in Swamp of Sorrows was good, though.

Pandaria's been improving things for us, though. Subtly, but just seeing draenei SI:7 agents and draenei vindicators at Lion's Landing was pretty awesome. And as the next expansion will focus on the Legion, I'm expecting a big expansion on draenei stuff then.

People often make an overemphasis on the Light as an obligatory part of their character when it doesn't have to be, considering there are Mages, Hunters, Warriors etc within the Draenei.

It is an obligatory part. Draenei mages, hunters, warriors, etc, should be Lighties. You don't have to be a priest or paladin to be a Lightie. The Light is a major part of draenei culture, and is strongly followed by members of all classes. While it's possible to not follow it, that requires a very uncommon mindset for the draenei.

It's also one of the more interesting parts of the race, due to the very subtle but notable differences between draenei Light worship and human Light worship. Religion is very fun to play, when it's played well.

That being said, I will agree that too many people go for the "Cinematic Vindicator" concept without putting any real thought into their characters. Light is pretty obligatory, but should not be the only aspect of the character.

People often think of them as a "boring race" because all we've ever seen of them is the lawful good flawless hero.

This is how they're overtly presented, but there are examples of non-Lawful Good and flawed characters. Particularly the Triumvirate of the Hand, Khan, Akama, and the Auchenai (who weren't perfectly goodie-two-shoes even when they were still good guys).

The big problem with the draenei is not in their culture. Their culture is not boring. What it is is poorly advertised. There is a lot of depth available if someone puts in the time and effort to look into it. I just really, really wish Blizzard would present some of that, themselves. That'd really help encourage people to roll draenei. The negative aspects, while present, were barely touched on even in TBC.

The perfection is itself one of the most interesting aspects IMO, because it's a complete reverse from "human" RP. Humans are naturally flawed and strive to rise up. Draenei are naturally perfect and strive not to fall. Humans make statues of heroes to look up to, draenei make holograms of villains they wish to avoid becoming. Humans praise, respect, and elevate each other for their successes, draenei mourn, dismiss, and patronize each other for their failures. I'd say it actually has the potential to make draenei the more tragic race, because perfection is commonplace and unrecognized while imperfection is exaggerated and vilified. I'd expect a lot of draenei to be Stepford Smilers.

The depth is there. There is so much that can be done with it. Blizzard just needs to do something with it, and players need to realize it.

by **Thelos** Sun May 05, 2013 8:34 am

Well, to be honest, Drustai, even though as you know I do agree with you - you and me both have to admit that it has taken the players a lot more work to show that draenei can have depth than it should have had.

Perhaps that alone proves Zaraj's point, insofar it takes a lot of effort to get the same ammount of depth out of your draenei character as you would get out of a human character. I agree with this to some extent, I suppose.

Drustai wrote:That being said, I will agree that too many people go for the "Cinematic Vindicator" concept without putting any real thought into their characters. Light is pretty obligatory, but should not be the only aspect of the character.

Also, this is exactly what I am doing at the moment with Huruma, and it is awesome. It's a kick-ass archetype with very characteristic visuals - what's not to love? Very Happy

Yeah, I might be propagating a stereotype, but it's an awesome stereotype, so I don't mind.

by **Drustai** Sun May 05, 2013 8:40 am

I was agreeing to that, Thelos. It's possible, but Blizzard have not made it apparent or easy, which is sad.

Also, it is an awesome stereotype. But it's very hard to make it function as a lasting character. The basic concept on its own rarely keeps people interested for longer than a few months unless there's a real character beneath the basic stereotype.

by **Arabella Greene** Sun May 05, 2013 8:45 am

Drustai wrote: [Wall of Text]

...Well Dru, you just convinced me to RP with my Draenei.

by **Thelos** Sun May 05, 2013 11:23 am

Drustai wrote:Also, it is an awesome stereotype. But it's very hard to make it function as a lasting character. The basic concept on its own rarely keeps people interested for longer than a few months unless there's a real character beneath the basic stereotype.

Luckily, I have my natural charisma and my Naaruvada doctrine to support me. It's interesting to play a character that is so fundamentally different from Thelos in personality, but who abides to the same ethics. It definately means he falls into different pitfalls, being more likely to become overly vengeful than overly gluttonous.

Who knows, I might even pick up the pen soon. There's still plenty of vedic scripture to convert, and I might even finally take the most hazardous step and try to make reïncarnation work within the context of the WoW universe.

by **Zaraj** Sun May 05, 2013 6:00 pm

I can't say I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that they are all supposed to be followers of the Light. The naaru are beings of good (all lies, I tell you) that saved them from certain destruction had they not allied with Sargeras. Does this per automatic make all of them followers of the Light? Those who'd follow the Naaru and the Light more intently would be in fact paladins, whereas the rest are divided into their respective class and role. You have the arcane part of draenei that can be compared to Highborne/Blood Elven leagues of magic, while you have also the more down-to-earth elements of perhaps the Hunters, or the parts with Shamanism. That Light would be so tightly connected to each and every one of those parts doesn't seem right.

To me, it seems that it'd be weird that essentially all the history prior to the Exodus from Argus (history that is vague for sure) to be more or less eliminated and that all of the classes would be followers of the Light in different forms, having their class identity removed. This wouldn't really help the versatility of draenei RP. As interesting as Light RP may be, many people aren't that interested in it.

by **Muzjhath** Sun May 05, 2013 6:07 pm

The thing about "the light" for the Draenei is that it isn't faith.
For them it's certainty.

Humans that worship it choose to believe in it. (Very very few humans have met or even seen a Naaru and most likely believe them to not really exist).
For the Draenei that all have met them, likely all conversed with one at one point or another, and each and everyone only still being alive and "Draenei" because of them.
For them "The Light" is something entierly different than faith.
So even if they don't weild it's power directly, they still see it as certainty and as a force that they believe in. They also know what happened to those that turned their back to the path of the righteous. (Aka, those that choose to join Sargeras).

by **Drustai** Sun May 05, 2013 6:53 pm

Zaraj wrote:I can't say I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that they are all supposed to be followers of the Light. The naaru are beings of good (all lies, I tell you) that saved them from certain destruction had they not allied with Sargeras. Does this per automatic make all of them followers of the Light? Those who'd follow the Naaru and the Light more intently would be in fact paladins, whereas the rest are divided into their respective class and role. You have the arcane part of draenei that can be compared to Highborne/Blood Elven leagues of magic, while you have also the more down-to-earth elements of perhaps the Hunters, or the parts with Shamanism. That Light would be so tightly connected to each and every one of those parts doesn't seem right.

To me, it seems that it'd be weird that essentially all the history prior to the Exodus from Argus (history that is vague for sure) to be more or less eliminated and that all of the classes would be followers of the Light in different forms, having their class identity removed. This wouldn't really help the versatility of draenei RP. As interesting as Light RP may be, many people aren't that interested in it.

You don't have to wield it to follow it. That's like saying the only Christians in the world are ordained priests. Mages, hunters, shamans, warriors, those are all lay people. They're the ones who are attending church services, sitting in the seats, listening, believing. Priests are the ones who are standing at the front, preaching. And paladins are the priests who choose to don armor and stride onto the battlefield while continuing to preach.

The vast majority of followers are not priests or paladins. The vast majority of worshipers would be members of the other classes. Priests and paladins are those few who decide to make it not just their faith, but also their career.

It should be the same thing with humans, since humans are also supposed to be a highly religious race. My worgen rogue is a follower of the Light. My human warrior is a (subdued) follower of the Light.

Also, having the Light as an aspect of your RP does not remove the unique aspects of the individual classes. It's an addition, not a replacement. Drustai is a necromancer and one of the most pro-magic arcanists in Alliance RP. Didn't stop her from also being a follower of the Light (before her recent crisis of faith). Draenei (along with humans, night elves, and other religious races) are religious in addition to their career, not in place of it.

If someone isn't interested in playing a faithful character (note, being a faithful character doesn't mean you have to participate in overt Light RP, like sermons. A character can be faithful without adhering to ceremony), then they should probably look into playing another race. They'd be better off playing a gnome, or a goblin--races that don't care about religion. Draenei are almost entirely faithful in the Light, no matter what profession they are (the same can be said for humans, night elves, tauren, and other highly religious races). Those who are not are rare, and would need a very good explanation for why they are not. If playing a faithful character doesn't appeal to someone, then there are other races to pick from.

by **Zaraj** Sun May 05, 2013 8:14 pm

Drustai wrote:
Zaraj wrote:I can't say I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that they are all supposed to be followers of the Light. The naaru are beings of good (all lies, I tell you) that saved them from certain destruction had they not allied with Sargeras. Does this per automatic make all of them followers of the Light? Those who'd follow the Naaru and the Light more intently would be in fact paladins, whereas the rest are divided into their respective class and role. You have the arcane part of draenei that can be compared to Highborne/Blood Elven leagues of magic, while you have also the more down-to-earth elements of perhaps the Hunters, or the parts with Shamanism. That Light would be so tightly connected to each and every one of those parts doesn't seem right.

To me, it seems that it'd be weird that essentially all the history prior to the Exodus from Argus (history that is vague for sure) to be more or less eliminated and that all of the classes would be followers of the Light in different forms, having their class identity removed. This wouldn't really help the versatility of draenei RP. As interesting as Light RP may be, many people aren't that interested in it.

You don't have to wield it to follow it. That's like saying the only Christians in the world are ordained priests. Mages, hunters, shamans, warriors, those are all lay people. They're the ones who are attending church services, sitting in the seats, listening, believing. Priests are the ones who are standing at the front, preaching. And paladins are the priests who choose to don armor and stride onto the battlefield while continuing to preach.

The vast majority of followers are not priests or paladins. The vast majority of worshipers would be members of the other classes. Priests and paladins are those few who decide to make it not just their faith, but also their career.

It should be the same thing with humans, since humans are also supposed to be a highly religious race. My worgen rogue is a follower of the Light. My human warrior is a (subdued) follower of the Light.

Also, having the Light as an aspect of your RP does not remove the unique aspects of the individual classes. It's an addition, not a replacement. Drustai is a necromancer and one of the most pro-magic arcanists in Alliance RP. Didn't stop her from also being a follower of the Light (before her recent crisis of faith). Draenei (along with humans, night elves, and other religious races) are religious in addition to their career, not in place of it.

If someone isn't interested in playing a faithful character (note, being a faithful character doesn't mean you have to participate in overt Light RP, like sermons. A character can be faithful without adhering to ceremony), then they should probably look into playing another race. They'd be better off playing a gnome, or a goblin--races that don't care about religion. Draenei are almost entirely faithful in the Light, no matter what profession they are (the same can be said for humans, night elves, tauren, and other highly religious races). Those who are not are rare, and would need a very good explanation for why they are not. If playing a faithful character doesn't appeal to someone, then there are other races to pick from.

How being a necromancer AND a follower of the Light works I'll not even think about. But this discussion is about the characteristics of the universal draenei, after all.

But then the discussion comes into what exactly is faithful. The impact it has on the character scales whether one considers it faithful in the medieval sense, which is more restrictive, to the secularized view of religion in the Western World of today, which makes it nigh irrelevant. Assuming its like a code of virtues, on how to act etc, you have essentially make the motivational part of a character less relevant, unless you're gonna have the character striving to fulfill to be the "ideal follower of the Light" and failing, or having the character be the ideal follower of the Light. Again, this depends on what the definition of faithful is, but as people argue how there can be essentially no Draenei that are a bit disinterested with the Light compared to other lines of profession or ideas, it doesn't really make the race more appealing.

by **Drustai** Sun May 05, 2013 10:01 pm

Zaraj wrote:How being a necromancer AND a follower of the Light works I'll not even think about.

Because being a necromancer does not mean one is necessarily evil.

The draenei had an entire order of Light-worshiping necromancers. Like I said earlier, draenei have a lot of depth, and they aren't just carbon copy human Lighties--they have their own unique take on the Light. It was sadly underutilized in TBC, but what can be pieced together from what is available is very striking.

The Auchenai were a huge opportunity to really explore the other dimensions of draenei culture, and it really disappoints me how Blizzard didn't exploit it more.

But then the discussion comes into what exactly is faithful. The impact it has on the character scales whether one considers it faithful in the medieval sense, which is more restrictive, to the secularized view of religion in the Western World of today, which makes it nigh irrelevant. Assuming its like a code of virtues, on how to act etc, you have essentially make the motivational part of a character less relevant, unless you're gonna have the character striving to fulfill to be the "ideal follower of the Light" and failing, or having the character be the ideal follower of the Light. Again, this depends on what the definition of faithful is, but as people argue how there can be essentially no Draenei that are a bit disinterested with the Light compared to other lines of profession or ideas, it doesn't really make the race more appealing.

I don't really see how that makes them not appealing. Why is playing a religious character not appealing? Even with a strong, restrictive religion, that does not stop individuals from having their own minds, their own goals, and their own motivations. Just because you pray three times a day and follow specific religious traditions, does not mean you can't also be a mage, hunter, warrior, whatever, with your own personal goals.

It influences every draenei. But it doesn't dominate who they are. Characters have more than one dimension. Yes, playing a character whose personality solely revolves around the Light and nothing more could be boring, but that is an issue with the player, not with draenei. You can be faithful, even in a strong, highly "invasive" religion, and still be your own person, too.

In fact, draenei Light worship is much less restrictive than human Light worship! Draenei have much less in the way of ceremony and structure. A draenei treats everything they do as venerating the Light in some way. They help others, because this strengthens the connections between people and thus brings individuals closer to the Light. Humans have scheduled sermons, rituals, and structure that adds a level of "order" to the religion. A human will feel they are a proper follower of the Light not because of their own personal faith, but because they adhere to the traditions. Draenei don't care for that. It was a key area of conflict that occurred between the draenei community and the Chapter of Holy Anethion for example. Most of us draenei saw the Chapter as all form, no substance, because it was all about "proving" their faith to themselves, making a big "show" of faith, instead of actually being truly faithful.

So, draenei faith is actually less restrictive than human faith, even though it's much more present in their society, because they don't feel like they have to "prove" it to anyone. They are faithful, they do the Light's work, that's all that really matters.

Also, as I said in my posts, you can play a draenei that are disinterested in the Light. But it's uncommon and you need a very good reason for it. The Light is an obligatory part of the culture. You can't just ignore it. You can certainly play a non-faithful draenei, but they can't be non-faithful 'just because'. In order to break the rules, you must first acknowledge that there are rules (this is a key thing to keep in mind for playing any type of outcast character from non-human cultures). Being faithful is the norm. Being non-faithful is abnormal. So while it's possible to play a non-faithful draenei, there needs to be a good, solid, well-thought reason behind it. And that is what makes it interesting. That adds depth.

For example, Drustai is currently more or less back to being a shadow worshiper. She's ICly been in a crisis of faith ever since the war on Draenor, and has bounced back and forth between Light and Shadow throughout the time I've been playing her in WoW. Through support from her friends, family, and commune, she was able to start on the road to spiritual recovery and become a proper follower of the Light again, but after another series of tragedies hit, she fell back down into brooding hatred of everything and blaming the Light for "abandoning" her and those she cares for. Like the other fallen Auchenai, when shit hits the fan she has a tendency to start believing that there isn't a point to anything and that everything is doomed no matter what you do. It's been a wonderful thing to RP.

The point is, religion and the Light are an obligatory part of being a draenei. Following the Light isn't necessarily obligatory, but being influenced by the faith is required in some way. This adds dimension. And this is a key thing for any cultural race. Draenei are not blue humans, and should not be played as blue humans. Just as night elves are not purple humans, orcs are not green humans, and so on. These races have their own unique culture. This culture must be kept in mind, even if you choose to play a character who breaks from it. That is what makes them appealing.

To sort of move back to the topic though, I can definitely understand where you're coming from about the religion stuff seeming to overpower and dominate anything else. But that comes from Blizzard refusing to explore the "other sides". Those other sides are there, but they don't get advertised and utilized as they should to really show those other dimensions.

by **Muzjhath** Sun May 05, 2013 10:13 pm

As I said a few points up.

For Draenei the light isn't something intelegible. It's a certainty. One they gladly observe and work with. In a way it really isn't for humans.

by **Drustai** Sun May 05, 2013 10:19 pm

Yes. The Light isn't an uncertainty for anyone, period. It's not really possible to be an atheist in a world like WarCraft. The best you can get is being a Nay Theist, which is the province of gnomes and many goblins and blood elves, while draenei, humans, and other highly religious races actually acknowledge the divinity of the Light and worshiping it. Thus, being religious and faithful refers to seeing the Light (or whatever other religion the race follows) as divine and worth worshiping, as its actual existence as a metaphysical force is fact.

by **Thelos** Sun May 05, 2013 10:50 pm

Well, whether it's an enrichment or a limiter, I love me some Light RP, especially when it comes in spacey blue flavors.

I am enjoying role-playing on a paladin far more than I expected. It's odd, but I prefer a paladin for a lightie: you don't have that bothersome shadow spec to tempt you into defecting to the other side. It's so much easier doing dailies in shadowform...

by **Zaraj** Sun May 05, 2013 11:01 pm

Tbh it seems that you're seeing depth in the Auchenai where there is none, considering the one paragraph long article on wowpedia when it comes to their lore. For the purposes of Blizzard, it's unexpanded because all they needed it to be was a cool 4th instance in Auchindoun. There is no deeper reason to them or interconnectivity with the rest of draenei society, other than they have been corrupted by the naaru ghost and have essentially gone evil. And that is all they needed to be for the instance to be there, which is essentially what most things in WoW turn into.

When it comes to necromancy vs light, it isn't really a point between good and evil, but rather they are the opposites of one another. Practicing necromancy is pretty much the total theological contradiction of what the Light teach, regardless of what it's used for.

As for the faithful part, the Light is without a doubt the major part of draenic society and it should be recognized as the norm, true. But then you also have to factor in that "faith" in Warcraft is more or less extroverted into the actual holy power of Light, which means that "follow it, but don't practice" isn't necessarily comparable to the medieval "priest and laymen" order of things. Which brings me back to the Mages, Hunters, Shamans etc in that it doesn't become -as- big of a part of their lives as the paladins or the priests.

But that is my opinion. I suspect the discussion from here on out could end up about semantics only, so one might as well just leave it there.

by **Vardrek/Burgen** Sun May 05, 2013 11:06 pm

Auchenai were regarded as evil by the Sha'tar as their are quests to basically put a stop to their necromancy upon the graves of their ancestors.....their is no if and or buts....their as a bad as the scourge and were effectivley wiped out by the light loving Sha'tar a majority of draenei crushing the wayward minority.

You cannot be Necromantic and have a connection to the light their are absolutes,in-absolutes as well in cases but necromancy and fel are two powers that are completely opposite to the message and nature of the light.

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