Necromancy being completely Illegal

Vaell wrote:

Grim wrote:I dont think anyone was suggesting they were?

A few people though dislike the idea of overly regulating or enforcing what should be a natural and personal bias against the undead.

I saw Lex saying something about bigots who have superiority issues are the only ones who are racist towards undead.

Yes, due to it being RPed so badly which, no offense, your previous post sums up. I personally perhaps sometimes think too deeply into the psychology behind my chars, I do think everyone could do with thinking slightly more about their own. Ask yourself why you hate the undead, if your answer is "cos lordaeron/dalaran/silvermoon/thirdwar/northrend then you are doing it wrong imo.

I agree with Braiden and Drustai.

You can certainly blame some of it on the persecution, but I'd blame the player just as much for not having the fortitude to endure it.

There shouldn't be lawful persecution in the first place.

You and Lexgrad keep pulling numbers out of your ass. You are making the assumption that just because the classes are open to players, that means there's a million of faceless NPC darkcasters roaming around.

Yes, it means that they're heavily used in the respective faction's Armies. A King doesn't shout "Warlocks at the ready!" in a fleet if there isn't at least one hundred of them ready to cast. Death Knights of the Ebon Blade are an entire different issue. I don't agree with your understimation of their numbers, for the simple reason that they were raised as brute force to massacre, in what could be called a zerging of the Scarlet's enclave througgh sheer numbers. This, added with the fact that killind for good a dk is very difficult makes very little for your case of 'so little number of them'.

Braiden, I'm all for rp conflict, but it must be reasonable. In DB we arrived to the point in which it is not possible to play a good dk or lock(or good aligned) without twisting the char completely. If I roll a warlock or I make him a martyr and a selfless idiot who keeps staying good for Light knows what reson, o if he's some kind of self-love and self preserving instinct, must go rogue. A warlock who just told he soulstoned in Duskwood trying to escape Black Hand was going to be arrested for that, and the Dols wanted to push for it(not to mention the Chapter). This is just stupid, luckily Ralegh had some brains IC. So, or you make the leash shorter on your guards organization so that being a lock, or dk, doesn't get you an absurd situation, or just give up on laws, or just say right away that if you roll lock or dk you're gonna choose to have a villain char and short lived,, or even just short lived.

Longknife/Decurius wrote: warlock who just told he soulstoned in Duskwood trying to escape Black Hand was going to be arrested for that, and the Dols wanted to push for it(

this actualy had very seperated opinions in the dol members that were there.. monny got quite angry that another dol member had what she thaught was a badly wounded worgen arested so quickly

I don't get why there is whining about what people do IC now. Stick to the topic of discussion, and that is the legality of necromancy.

Thanks.

Well, no. A list of reasons people hate undead: (Scroll down for stuff on Necromancers)

- It is a walking corpse so when looking into all of those places you mentioned which were pretty much decimated by the undead, you can compare it to something like 'The Walking Dead'. People's families turned on one another, becoming corpses that would eat their OWN family and cut apart their friends and neighbours all of a sudden. You have not clearly thought into the psychology enough because that alone would leave ANYONE traumatised to some degree. Now, picture those same things living around you but in 'harmony'.

- They carry a very large blade on their back which harvests souls. This means if one kills you that you will not ascend to an afterlife. So you're telling me people wouldn't fear that?

- They smell like a rotting corpse. The putrid smell of decay is meant to be extremely vile; luckily, I have not experienced smelling a dead person! But those I know who have claim it as an unforgettable smell. Now picture one who walks and talks and smells that bad. I've gagged when people don't wear deodrant on the train, let alone a rotting walking corpse.

- They kill other living beings to survive. If they do not do this, many might become angered or dangerous. They need to feed off life to live. So, you're sat there in the Pig. You've got yourself a lovely pint and you're about to go back to work soon - as a cobbler - and you look over and see this smelling, putrid husk with a fuck off big sword on their back and you know it has recently killed various animals just to drain life from them or in a lot of cases, humanoids... You're really not going to feel any suspicion/disgust?

- What's to stop them becoming the Lich King? The common man knows that the Lich King was a Death Knight. They might not know the full story (in fact, I'd bet a bollock most probably would be rumour driven) and then suddenly the same things are their allies?

- Look at the DKs joining the Alliance. They were spat on, had fruit thrown at them etc. The lore pretty much is giving you a head's up that these people are hated by the public. Now, time has passed since then and people would have heard of the DKs fighting alongside their forces. But if a group of Nazis (of which were known to be in concentration camps and carrying out horrific deeds) suddenly joined the Allied forces, would they be welcomed back into an allied hometown with open arms? No. They're still remembered as their former selves, that is human nature. It takes a LOT of time to forget the deeds of others.

- They decay everything around them. You see one pick up a flower and it dies in their hand and you're saying you'd feel fine with that?

No offence, Lex. I don't think you've thought it through enough. World of Warcraft makes light of the undead situation but if you really think of the psychology behind it - it is pretty messed up.


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Because we have seen no new Necromancers nor recently raised DKs since WotLK, I think it is safe to assume that they aren't really encouraged. If we can translate that to not accepted (unless an Ebon), I think it would enrich the role-play.

While I don't like you Vaell at all, I happen to agree with the points you have brought up regarding the distaste available for death knights and how exactly it is justified. These beings participated in the mass genocide and eradication of thousands upon thousands.

I highly doubt the peasantry will have the ins and outs regarding whatever morale justifications and emotions are behind each DK.

Walking, rotting corpses with the ability to raise the dead. And guess what, now there's a whole rogue order of them alongside an exiled master & apprentice who are capable of god knows what.

Fear drives people into irrational decisions.

I stand behind high regulation of necromancy & the opinions expressed by Drustai, Braiden and Wulfgnar to an extent.

Pao wrote:I want to be out there in the world, solving mysteries, experiencing thrilling adventures and fighting the good fight.

Hold on, I'm coming!

Adventuuuuuure!

Lexgrad wrote:

Vaell wrote:

Grim wrote:I dont think anyone was suggesting they were?

A few people though dislike the idea of overly regulating or enforcing what should be a natural and personal bias against the undead.

I saw Lex saying something about bigots who have superiority issues are the only ones who are racist towards undead.

Yes, due to it being RPed so badly which, no offense, your previous post sums up. I personally perhaps sometimes think too deeply into the psychology behind my chars, I do think everyone could do with thinking slightly more about their own. Ask yourself why you hate the undead, if your answer is "cos lordaeron/dalaran/silvermoon/thirdwar/northrend then you are doing it wrong imo.

America hated the Japanese because they bombed Pearl Harbor. We hated the Arabs for bombing the World Trade Center. So why should people not hate undead for wiping out over 50% of the human race?

I think you're highly underestimating how easy it is to build hatred and bigotry here, Lex.

And that's not even beginning to include the whole crime-against-nature thing.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:Yes, it means that they're heavily used in the respective faction's Armies. A King doesn't shout "Warlocks at the ready!" in a fleet if there isn't at least one hundred of them ready to cast.

Actually, you don't shout to a fleet at all, because your voice wouldn't carry that far. That's why they use flags to signal orders to other ships. Therefore the only ones that could have heard would have been the ones on the deck of the ship Varian himself was on. So no, that wouldn't have been 'at least a hundred'.

Or does the book actually state that warlocks on multiple ships unloaded at the enemy?

for the simple reason that they were raised as brute force to massacre, in what could be called a zerging of the Scarlet's enclave througgh sheer numbers. This, added with the fact that killind for good a dk is very difficult makes very little for your case of 'so little number of them'.

DKs are the elite. They were the commanders. Commanding a force of over 10,000 Scourge against the Scarlet Crusade and against the Argent Dawn, of which almost all of them were wiped out. So yes. There was a massive force, but most of it was not death knights. And even if they were, almost the entirety of that force was wiped out, which would have included many of the death knights in it. As they say during the battle, it was intended to be a suicide mission. The death knights, and all the ghouls and constructs present, were not intended to survive, and most didn't. That's part of why Darion got so pissed off.

"He sent your death knights to meet their doom, Darion." - Tirion Fordring
"Yes, I did send them in to die. Their lives are meaningless." - Lich King

Also, killing a DK for good is easy. You kill them. Runeblades are not phylacteries. When a DK dies, they die. They do not automatically resurrect. They can endure lots of punishment, sure, but they can't raise from the dead once they die.

Lexgrad wrote:

Vaell wrote:

Grim wrote:I dont think anyone was suggesting they were?

A few people though dislike the idea of overly regulating or enforcing what should be a natural and personal bias against the undead.

I saw Lex saying something about bigots who have superiority issues are the only ones who are racist towards undead.

Yes, due to it being RPed so badly which, no offense, your previous post sums up. I personally perhaps sometimes think too deeply into the psychology behind my chars, I do think everyone could do with thinking slightly more about their own. Ask yourself why you hate the undead, if your answer is "cos lordaeron/dalaran/silvermoon/thirdwar/northrend then you are doing it wrong imo.

because bigotry needs a better reason than: Because he's different. To do it right?

Lol

If that were the case, the word wouldn't even exist.

- They decay everything around them. You see one pick up a flower and it dies in their hand and you're saying you'd feel fine with that?

That is pure made up. -.-' Unless you go full unholy, or you use some spells like Death & Decay, that doesn't happen.

The whole fear thing is absurd as it is rped. "I so much fear you that I... attack you! Sure!" or even insult him. I mean:
They carry a very large blade on their back which harvests souls. This means if one kills you that you will not ascend to an afterlife. So you're telling me people wouldn't fear that?
So the first thing that springs my mind is not to avoid him, but upset him so he would attack me? Make up your mind.

I repeat myself but: I'm all for mistrust, hatred and such(though I don't agree on most of the points raised by Vaell here by lore, but I'll keep this discussion for another time, if any, let's say I agree for the sake of it), but there is still a King who tells every now and then that you must respect them and a Prince who says to them: Death Knight, I remember when you first came to see my father after the Battle for Ebon Hold. I'm glad you're still with us." Now word of the monarch is law, so... whoever attacks a dk 'cause he's a dk should be punished for getting against a King's specific order. Period.

In any case lawful persecution makes no sense(while the atm rquest for proof of being an Ebon Blade does), as well as surely doesn't make sense any kind of lawful prosecution of warlocks. It's not like the USA prosecuted Oppenheimer. And I'm not so sure that normal Stormwiind people wouldn't be so unfavorable of unleashing fel fire on the Horde anyway.

Actually, you don't shout in a fleet a fleet at all, because your voice wouldn't carry that far. That's why they use flags to signal orders to other ships. Therefore the only ones that could have heard would have been the ones on the deck of the ship Varian himself was on. So no, that wouldn't have been 'at least a hundred'.

Shouting or ordering that through flags has litttle importance. Remains that they were overtly there in numbers, surely more numbers than most of the lock rped players in years. I've seen like 20 true locks in a year of rp, Are you telling me that in the whole Alliance Army there are less than 140 locks?

As for dks, it's hard not to think about the fact that they were mostly raised against their will and were without free-will, and that it's hard to think that this wouldn't be known by the common citizen, if not else to justify the heel-turn of the King on the matter. Ah, and the fact they were protagonists of the fall of the LK maybe, the same evil bastard who destroyed Lordaeron etc.? Sure that kind of thing doesn't earn you some more good rep, sure.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:

- They decay everything around them. You see one pick up a flower and it dies in their hand and you're saying you'd feel fine with that?

That is pure made up. -.-' Unless you go full unholy, or you use some spells like Death & Decay, that doesn't happen.

The whole fear thing is absurd as it is rped. "I so much fear you that I... attack you! Sure!" or even insult him. I mean:
They carry a very large blade on their back which harvests souls. This means if one kills you that you will not ascend to an afterlife. So you're telling me people wouldn't fear that?
So the first thing that springs my mind is not to avoid him, but upset him so he would attack me? Make up your mind.

I repeat myself but: I'm all for mistrust, hatred and such(though I don't agree on most of the points raised by Vaell here by lore, but I'll keep this discussion for another time, if any, let's say I agree for the sake of it), but there is still a King who tells every now and then that you must respect them and a Prince who says to them: Death Knight, I remember when you first came to see my father after the Battle for Ebon Hold. I'm glad you're still with us." Now word of the monarch is law, so... whoever attacks a dk 'cause he's a dk should be punished for getting against a King's specific order. Period.

And this is how it is done. If you attack a DK just for being a DK, you get arrested. Same thing with a warlock, or a shadowpriest.

Actually, you don't shout in a fleet a fleet at all, because your voice wouldn't carry that far. That's why they use flags to signal orders to other ships. Therefore the only ones that could have heard would have been the ones on the deck of the ship Varian himself was on. So no, that wouldn't have been 'at least a hundred'.

Shouting or ordering that through flags has litttle importance. Remains that they were overtly there in numbers, surely more numbers than most of the lock rped players in years. I've seen like 20 true locks in a year of rp,

Nothing in the writing seems to imply there was any more than a squad or so of warlocks in the fleet.

Spoiler:

That's what you've quoted before. Was there any more to that? Because from just that, I don't see how you could imagine 'hundreds' of warlocks in that one fleet.

Are you telling me that in the whole Alliance Army there are less than 140 locks?

A little more, maybe, but around there, yes. Definitely no more than a few hundred total in the Alliance.

Vaell wrote:
- They carry a very large blade on their back which harvests souls. This means if one kills you that you will not ascend to an afterlife. So you're telling me people wouldn't fear that?

This makes me twitch. DK runeblades by lore do not take souls. This is NOTHING against you Vaell (love you sexpants), just have OCD and a pet peeve over this and feel morally driven by my lorezealotry to point this out every time it comes up xD They take life force, if anything. Everything else, I agree with.

Having -skimmed- the thread, I just want to say that yes, it makes perfect sense for the citizenry of Stormwind to distrust and dislike Necromancers, Warlocks, Death Knights, etc. And it makes perfect sense for the zealots to -hate- them and even to act on that.

The War Sect idea also made perfect sense, however, and the idea of a regulated group for them, staying mostly out of sight and underground but helping in an official capacity, I find quite interesting and a good idea for creating great RP. Shame it got shot down. Maybe we can see more of it in the future.

The way I've always seen this stuff ICly, regarding acceptance legally, is that it's tolerated but not endorsed. Necromancy/Warlockery/Death Knights have their uses, are good against common enemies and are thus accepted, but if you strut it in public... it's like having a little bit of weed in a baggy. People won't really care, but if you light up on a busy street corner you're gonna get arrested.

I'd also like to point out one last thing--that a lot of the current DK hate is RP reactions to the ongoing cultist stuffs, and is... an intended result. Don't take it too hard OOC. It will be cracked down on out of -fear,- ICly, and will eventually... probably... die back down.

Feral / Blackfall wrote:

Vaell wrote:
- They carry a very large blade on their back which harvests souls. This means if one kills you that you will not ascend to an afterlife. So you're telling me people wouldn't fear that?

This makes me twitch. DK runeblades by lore do not take souls. This is NOTHING against you Vaell (love you sexpants), just have OCD and a pet peeve over this and feel morally driven by my lorezealotry to point this out every time it comes up xD They take life force, if anything. Everything else, I agree with.

It's not said outright that they don't take them, either. Frostmourne does, Shadowmourne does, and the very first runeblade a DK gets is called a Soulblade (though that could just refer to the fact that the DK's own soul is bound to it).

So, it's up in the air. Life force they do take, we know that. Souls, they may or may not take depending on how you prefer to view the lore implications we have. It's possible that 'standard' vampiric runeblades only take the soul of the wielder, but not the souls of those slain, only their life force.

Either way, it's not a very morally-acceptable weapon.

Vampiric takes the soul of the wielder and converts them, yeah. Never says anything about taking victims' souls--and Soulblade is just the name of the weapon you get, imo. Or a Blizzard screwup. It happens.

The runeblades we have now are just any old weapon, with runes put on. The runes are rune magic--blood, frost, unholy. Nothing here about stealing souls.

Unless my 2h Bastard Sword of the Eagle suddenly becomes a soulblade when I put on blood runes, it's not taking souls! It's just... a runeblade. It -may- take life force to power Runic Power, but soulblades are stated to be extremely rare, and only Corrupted Ashbringer/Frostmourne are counted among them. I'm not even really sure Shadowmourne truly exists in lore, mostly because if it does, who owns it? I suspect it was more just throwing a bone to players, a cool legendary item that is given to you because giving you Frostmourne itself would be... bad ;D

The point of runeblades, anyway--fast, easy, cheap weapons for an expendable army of death--makes forming them into soul-sucking weapons very unlikely, if not impossible.

Not saying people CAN'T RP that their blade takes souls, mind you. Don't misunderstand me, I know a few DKs who do and I don't mind. But, people should be aware imo that it's not standard canon, and it shouldn't be taken as accepted that every death knight's sword takes souls automatically, in my eyes.

They carry a very large blade on their back which harvests souls. This means if one kills you that you will not ascend to an afterlife. So you're telling me people wouldn't fear that?

First off they don't have Soulblades, least the 3rd gen Dks. Still people could think that i'd asume. Hate is fully justified, misstrust as well IC wise it's how the world is. Of course a large issue is the Player, not lore.

One thing is strange though. People rather go die themselves, into duskwood, but not rather have aid from "things"/people that know how to deal with the problem better or are better suited for it. But those who want so state it openly and bluntly... Well of course the warlock or Knight isn't a idiot.

On general part most said how it is already though.

As for the Soulstone thing... *sigh* .. It happened as it should have, of course it's darker magic, souls and so on, he didn't know the person and becouse already having "lost" his wife to a necromancer, he pretty much had a good reason to get the guards.

In all things to consider the guards do their work (Some at least, let's leave the part aside when a Elf got asked if she has a growth problem - aparemtly never seen a Elf). If it came to lashing, branding or a Death Penatly (Of course the last one might be overkill in that case) it'd seem resonable from a Ic standpoint. Still yes both the other two disciples would be hard to not mind it.

One issue i wonder DKs should know they won't be liked, isn't it obvious? Mine knows it. Not like he really wants to always be in a city which would rather see him burn (One of the main reasons he hasn't joined Ally/horde, but stays a full ebon). But that doesn't mean he wants to right the wrongs in his own way.

My personal experience for hate that my chars got lock/dk so far doesn't seem so bad. Just sometimes one/two/three might yell cultist/warlock before one can tell what happened to the end.
"Hey i saw your friend use dark magi-- *The guy stabs the warlock* --- To save your son from that evil necromancer... yea, nevermind." But of course while Dark users become evil and Ligties become Zealots in time.

I've always generally treated Shadowmourne as having been used by an unidentified member of the unidentified group of not-our-characters who were actually at the pinnacle of Icecrown and helped kill the Lich King.

To say it didn't exist IC is burying your head in the sand somewhat. Best IMO to just assume that it exists but someone somewhere else has it, and not to really speculate on who that might be.

This is the best thread on the entire forum.

DK's are flavor of the month suddenly, it's like WOTLK all over again

Feral / Blackfall wrote:Vampiric takes the soul of the wielder and converts them, yeah. Never says anything about taking victims' souls--and Soulblade is just the name of the weapon you get, imo. Or a Blizzard screwup. It happens.

[...]

The runeblades we have now are just any old weapon, with runes put on. The runes are rune magic--blood, frost, unholy. Nothing here about stealing souls.

The process is made very clear in the quest. You pick up a "Battle-worn Sword" (meaning, the blade must have already been used to kill many people, so there's already some spiritual significance in the weapon right there which proves it it not some simple runebladed sword). You take it to the runeforge, and emblazon runes upon it, turning it into a Runebladed Sword, with the flavor text saying it has blood, frost, and unholy runes on it. Once you take it to Razuvious, it becomes a Runeblade Soulblade, as he specifically says to you, "The runeblade is an extension of your being."

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Emblazoned_Runeblade

So, every death knight does get their soul bound to their blade, in some form. And said blade does draw life energy from their victims, which is how you get runic power. In fact, in order to actually emblazon the runes on it, you must slay beings representing that rune to empower a gem which is used to provide power to those runes.

Lore Sources, spoilered because length.

Spoiler:

The only thing up in the air is if it takes souls from slain victims or not. Essence could mean many things. But in all other ways it is a standard vampiric runeblade. It most certainly is not just "any old weapon, but with runes on". Not by a long shot. Not when you need a blade that has killed, and must continue to kill in order to put the runes on it, and that blade continues to gain energy as you kill more people after it's already empowered. Everything about the blade requires stealing life from victims... its construction, its runeforging, and its continued empowerment.


All of you guys saying they aren't vampiric runeblades, that they're just simple, "any old weapon, but with runes", need to back it up with proof. I'll give you they might not draw souls from their victims, that might be the purview of only very strong runeblades like Frostmourne and Shadowmourne, but they are not simple runebladed weapons. They are vampiric runeblades, of which the DK's soul is bound and of which draws energy from its victims. To even make a death knight's runeblade, to even put the runes on it, requires committing acts of death and destruction. DK runeblades are still vampiric necromantic artifacts. They are evil, and will not be something that's going to be thought of fondly by the common person.

You missed a quest that would have been useful to quote I think, remember in... Icecrown, the ebon hold dailys above the scarlet place, the docks. you do a quest chain in there and the Forsaken DK dude starts ripping the guys soul out, cant remember the name.. but you know the one I mean right? might make a good point of reference but I think we went off topic.

Necromancy illegal!

Shot answer; No, it's fucking absurd, frankly. You may as well ban DK's from the alliance, it makes no sense.

A census, a License, yes. Makes perfect sense given how... Difficult they are becoming in DB-fluff (Alliance side)

That's my opinion.

Zhaun Blackblood wrote:You missed a quest that would have been useful to quote I think, remember in... Icecrown, the ebon hold dailys above the scarlet place, the docks. you do a quest chain in there and the Forsaken DK dude starts ripping the guys soul out, cant remember the name.. but you know the one I mean right? might make a good point of reference but I think we went off topic.

That would be: http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Second_Chances#Notes

Though that doesn't really prove that soulblades can draw souls. Just that DKs do know spells to draw souls, and to obliterate them, and that obliterating a soul prevents resurrection. It's a nice quest for soul magic, is what I'm saying.

Zhaun Blackblood wrote:You missed a quest that would have been useful to quote I think, remember in... Icecrown, the ebon hold dailys above the scarlet place, the docks. you do a quest chain in there and the Forsaken DK dude starts ripping the guys soul out, cant remember the name.. but you know the one I mean right? might make a good point of reference but I think we went off topic.

Necromancy illegal!

Shot answer; No, it's fucking absurd, frankly. You may as well ban DK's from the alliance, it makes no sense.

A census, a License, yes. Makes perfect sense given how... Difficult they are becoming in DB-fluff (Alliance side)

That's my opinion.

I still push that only Necromancers who belong to the Ebon Blade should be legalised. Even then, do not use it in the city. It's absurd how anyone can view bringing up a corpse in the middle of a 250k populated city is justifiable.

EDIT: I'd like to also point out that because nothing says the third gens don't take souls and the only other soulblades we know do that rumours between common folk would probably push for the latter as it makes for better inn storytelling! Therefore, sticking by my point that a common man might look across at a DK and think "He harvests souls!"

IIRC Blizz actually -was- going to give us Frostmourne, but just altered it to Shadowmourne because Frostmourne would, well, make us into the Lich King!

It could very well be in the hands of "random adventurer X" though!

And regarding runeblades--the very next quest states that you can runeforge "all of your weaponry." Blood/frost/unholy gem filling explicitly state they are only taking the magic force from each one's power.

A crying shame that you can only use the very-most updated form of a Legendary weapon, without an option to at least purchase the previous versions for transmogrification. Shadowmourne in its pre-legendary form has a lovely model, that looks non-descript enough to be employed as a decent weapon for roleplay; same can be said for Tarecgosa's Rest

@Feral: Considering that the NPC who speaks that phrase - Instructor Razuvious - is saying this to the player, assuming they will remain a member of the Scourge. It could be interpreted that "all your weaponry" still pertains to weapons that will then be made into vampiric runeblades, as you just did in the previous quest; with the worn blade?