Necromancy being completely Illegal

I've always disliked this odd idea on Defias Brotherhood that Necromancy was "alright" to be used in the army etc, but here is proof that it would never be acceptable no matter what.

<Penned by the skilled hand of Archmage Ansirem Runeweaver>

Necromancy is the study of magic involving the dead. It is highly illegal and should be avoided at all costs. I discuss necromancy here only because it is our obligation to have a basic understanding of the magic employed by our enemies - and make no mistake, any practitioner of necromancy is your enemy. Necromancers and their followers are the enemies of all living things. Their influence must be avoided at all costs.

Necromantic magic has many functions beyond simply raising the dead. Masters of this tainted field of magic can conjure festering diseases, harness the shadows into bolts of incendiary energy, and chill the living with the power of death. Necromancy can also be used to reconstruct the flesh of undead creatures, allowing them to function again even after the foul monsters have been destroyed.

The former archmage Kel'Thuzad is perhaps the most notable example of a modern necromancer. He greatly contributed to the initial spread of the Scourge and the fall of Lordaeron. Now, Kel'Thuzad reigns as a lich from the floating citadel of Naxxramas. His ongoing existence poses an imminent threat to us all.

http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Schools_of_Arcane_Magic_-_Necromancy

It is from one of the rare books.

Dalaran and the Kirin Tor are, however, not synonymous with the Alliance; and the laws of one cannot be just uncritically assumed to apply to the other.

The most important argument for assuming it's okay to use in the Alliance is the Death Knight class. It's there, players play it, so they're in the Alliance, doing their thing, using Necromancy.

Hell, the High King actually shouts his acceptance of this class in his army trough Stormwind every so often. Former heroes, he called them.

So, I'd say that the Death Knight class being a thing is a far heftier source, and therefore argument, than a single book in Dalaran.

I think that, necromancy being "alright" in the army is what was abused. Rather than it being legal or not. There has to be some form of (if not altogether shit) justification for the allowance of warlocks and death knights into the ranks of their respective faction.

So, I think, personally - It is the poor etiquette of the role-players regarding this topic and the constant "lol allowed in armeh" to try to get away with whatever they want.

Necromancy and research into it is the sole cause reason of the biggest exodus of the human race. It is something that would be very and incredibly closely watched and if things are done without the necessary supervision, punished.

For example, (Sorry Drustai) raising that Frostwyrm would have warranted a death warrant from any character I would have had in any law-enforcing organization. Why? Because ICly that would have simply crossed a line of "to much".

Is it banned as a research topic throughout the Kingdoms? Probably, heavily restricted.
Is it's use banned in the Kingdom? Most definitely 100%.
Is it banned in the army? No.
Is it HIGHLY overseen and regulated to massive extents? Fuck yes.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:

For example, (Sorry Drustai) raising that Frostwyrm would have warranted a death warrant from any character I would have had in any law-enforcing organization. Why? Because ICly that would have simply crossed a line of "to much".

The Frost Wyrm was fun, though.

*Shrugs* I guess I just don't see what the big deal is.

Then again, I never understood this fascination for penning down and enforcing laws, so I guess this topic is just not for me.

I'll take my leave *tips his hat*, good day to you sirs!

It should be noted that that book was written by the Kirin Tor, not the Alliance, and therefore the comment on its illegality applies only to the Kirin Tor, not the Alliance.

In the Alliance, we have death knights as soldiers serving in the army and using their necromantic abilities.

Captain Crudbeard, an Alliance officer.
Captain Crudbeard's abilities, which he uses in the middle of an Alliance camp while fighting a Horde infiltrator.

Morgus Grimhatchet, another DK in service to the Alliance, who likewise uses necromancy in defense of the Strongarm Airstrip.

We also see Alliance generals (again, death knights), commanding armies in battle, using undead minions.




I will agree with Vangrel that there should be a limit, and that raising that frostwyrm was definitely something that should have been considered going too far (I was actually surprised that only a few people actually complained about it IC, I was expecting to get a lot more abuse over it). It's something I'd suggest for Braiden to add in to the new laws, and likely something I will add in to the military laws concerning necromantic abilities when I get around to writing those.

I think Thassarian is different, well, because he's an NPC. So he doesn't really go around Stormwind picking fights in bars.

Regulation is what I would go with, strict and heavy regulation.

Some may be neutral but many of its members (both past and present) have strong ties to the Alliance. A few did complain, my character did but it was just shrugged off because ''Its allowed in the Army'', which is very frustrating!

I think there needs to be some kind of limit between game mechanics and Common-Lore sense. Such as the fun quests you've linked with Death Knights. Thassarian is different however, as he was a major part in the story and remains in the north fighting his own battles and doesn't really lead an alliance army, only our characters.

We should not really lose site of Lore for players choices. The zealot side of light is a minority in lore but a majority in the player base, we should not get too hung up on what player population does vs the lore.

In the case of DKs, alot of them end up as cultists and stuff player wise, but the lore supports that generally this is not the case, DKs hold high office when they are in the army, The Argents and the Ebon Blade are fast allies. Hell if we followed player lore over official lore Goldshire would be a very different place.

So as with Locks if you are well behaved and reasonably hidden you will be fine, if you are a living necromancer associated with the Ebon Blade or a DK in an alliance military role you might have more leeway, just dont be obvious or cultist about it.

Considering the Ebon Blade are accepted and the scarlet crusade butchered I would question the tolerance of the law for zealots more.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:I think Thassarian is different, well, because he's an NPC. So he doesn't really go around Stormwind picking fights in bars.

Regulation is what I would go with, strict and heavy regulation.

Agreed. The laws we have are too vague and open to interpretation. I tried to enforce somewhat stronger regulation with the Pandaria Laws of War, where the topic of 'greater demons/undead' came up, though we ended up only agreeing on a limit of one minion per caster without defining just how strong that individual minion could be since it had to be something that would be acceptable for the Horde (who have been seen canonically to utilize greater demons). When Braiden and I write up specific Stormwind military laws, we'll likely be including further regulations.

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:I think there needs to be some kind of limit between game mechanics and Common-Lore sense. Such as the fun quests you've linked with Death Knights. Thassarian is different however, as he was a major part in the story and remains in the north fighting his own battles and doesn't really lead an alliance army, only our characters.

He is specifically referred to as the commander of the Andorhal campaign.

"By order of his royal highness, King Varian Wrynn, all able-bodied citizens of the Alliance are to report to Thassarian at Andorhal." - Hero's Call: Western Plaguelands

"The city of Andorhal is in the middle of a three-way war between the Forsaken, the Alliance, and the Scourge. King Wrynn has rolled the dice and sent a death knight to lead the charge for his cause, but I'm sure he can use all the help he can get. With Arthas dead, now is the time for the Alliance to start to retake Lordaeron." - Quest: The Battle for Andorhal

"Darkmaster Gandling of the Cult of the Damned leads the Scourge offensive here in Andorhal. My old counterpart, Thassarian, leads the Alliance forces. If we're to win Andorhal, we'll have to defeat both, but we will certainly fail if we take on both at once." - Quest: Scourge First... Alliance Later

"Word has it that you helped those farmers arm themselves. Well, now they've initiated the attack without my order! They've forced my hand." - Thassarian, Quest: The Battle Resumes!


You might consider it to be completely illegal by your "common lore sense", but unfortunately that is not what is canon. Warlocks and death knights are both permitted to use their magic, including minions, in service to the army, and even shadowpriests are permitted (there is a shadowpriest in full shadowform in Lion's Landing). But as I said, I agree that we do need to set a limit as to how far that permission can be taken.

Regulation, regulation and more regulation.

If the necromancer/DK is reputable and high profile, assigning even like a custodian. Forcing them to check in with the guards often, demanding explanations of usage of necromancy outside of combat zones.

All can lead to productive role-play.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Regulation, regulation and more regulation.

If the necromancer/DK is reputable and high profile, assigning even like a custodian. Forcing them to check in with the guards often, demanding explanations of usage of necromancy outside of combat zones.

All can lead to productive role-play.

That was going to be the intended role of War Sect. A strictly monitored Alliance-aligned group of darkcasters, who would regularly submit a list of members and report of activities to the authorities, report all dark magic crimes (even in its own members), only be allowed to train mages that already use dark magic (could not preach dark magic to those who did not already use it in order to prevent corrupting "proper" mages), never have its victories in battle announced in order to ensure people wouldn't view them as heroes, and overall fall under the authority of Stormwind.

Unfortunately, that concept got killed by RP.

Stricter laws would be better, instead of just allowing anything and everything. Why was the concept killed by RP?

Because we moved on Drustai which was the leader and much of the top layer followed

New/revised laws will clarify that it is only allowed for war purposes unless expressively authorized within the kingdom of Stormwind.

If you lobby for stricter laws ICly and present the case of rogue death knights + a powerful one being strong enough to bring constructs/frostwyrms into existence I think you'd have a very very good case.

It would be a case like "To ever prevent a threat from rising such as the Drustai one" etc and constantly referring to all the DK's that go batshit crazy.

I think that could really work, tough legislation on DK's/necromancers!

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:Stricter laws would be better, instead of just allowing anything and everything. Why was the concept killed by RP?

When Decurius initially made it and had it approved by the Ministry of Magic, it essentially wasn't allowed to do anything. We couldn't really recruit as we couldn't say who we were, we couldn't offer our services (IE if we went to the Disciples or the Guards, we couldn't say, "Hey, we're part of this organization, you have this dark artifact, we could use our expertise and analyze it for you"). It was essentially just a guild tag for Alliance darkcasters and had no real presence.

When I took over, I approached the Council again and tried to expand our allowances so that we could actually properly exist as an organization. Vaell and I had some nice plans coming, but when we met with Braiden to discuss it he ordered my arrest in response to the hand issue from the previous trial. At that point, Decurius essentially lost all faith in the Alliance, Dru lost all faith in the Alliance after Jeremias' chosen punishment for Skarain, and Skarain followed Dru into exile.

Someone else could try the idea, of course, but all the leaders of the original concept have given up.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:If you lobby for stricter laws ICly and present the case of rogue death knights + a powerful one being strong enough to bring constructs/frostwyrms into existence I think you'd have a very very good case.

It would be a case like "To ever prevent a threat from rising such as the Drustai one" etc and constantly referring to all the DK's that go batshit crazy.

I think that could really work, tough legislation on DK's/necromancers!

Yes, current issues are making a very strong case for harsher laws regarding death knights and darkcasters, which I've been trying to build on with the MoD announcements (I'm deliberately going for a "Red Scare" type feeling with the targeting of death knights). So this is definitely the perfect time to institute harsher policies.

One thing I'd like to point out is that the only people we see using Necromancy are actually DKs themselves. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any "mage necromancers" in the Stormwind Army.

I believe this is down to an acceptance of their kind into the army and how they're very much a strong asset as a whole. To tell them they cannot use Necromancy mind offend them and give the army a lesser edge, so to not risk that, the King would have to accept them entirely. So I'd still imagine the practice of necromancy by any other than an Ebon would be considered very dangerous and questionable - if not illegal.

So with that being said, I believe a good way of reworking it is to force any current Necromancer to have to sign up by a certain date and join the forces of the Ebon Blade. If any are caught after a certain date, they will be arrested. DKs in Northrend are no longer being raised - you might find the odd one or two by some rogue Necro, but it seems too dangerous to openly interpret the lore as "Necromancy is now A-OK!"

One thing we see time and time again is people complaining that Death Knights are treated badly in Stormwind - attacked unprovoked. Something that really bugs me tbh as it makes sense lore wise. These people raised your husbands/wives that went to fight in the war and used them against you and the lore shows (when a DK first tries to join the Alliance) everyone spits on them and throws various things at them.

Necromancers, Warlocks and Shadow casters are all shunned as individuals. The only reason they're used in the army is so that the Horde doesn't overpower the Alliance. Picture it like chess if you had to remove the Bishop - sure you could win, but it'd be a lot harder!

When in the army, sure they can do their magic but if they're fighting alongside someone who could recognise them in the pig - don't complain if they accidently put an arrow in your head!

TL;DR - 1. Necromancers shouldn't be accepted unless they are Ebon and were before a certain date.
2. Caution from dark magic users needs to be amplified.


EDIT: It has always come across to me that Death Knights are loyal and fighting consistently, not just because of their nature, but to be accepted and forgiven for their role in aiding the Scourge. I'd compare them to the Oathbreakers in Lord of the Rings that fight at Minas Tirith (though not entirely, as they broke no oath, they just fought alongside the enemy). But would you share a drink gladly with one?!

AS a DK my self trying to RP one alliance side, when I heard raising ghouls and using our magic was illegal I was a bit taken back by it (This was from Feral in the Pig & Whistle, his been very helpful, thanks man!)

But that said I think the most fair way to go about it would be to say...

*Change the wording to better reflect a law, but the general idea is as follows;

While the practice of necromancy is considered Illegal, Ebon Knights are permitted to make use of there abilities provided - No corpses are raised from the stormwind cemetery or any other alliance control cemetery, (Corpse dust only) Dark magic are not to be used to "Harm" Alliance allies, though they are permitted to make use of the magic to defend them self's.

---------What this translates too is.

You can have a ghoul out, provided it's not a ghoul raised from an alliance graveyard or a dead alliance.

You can make a death gate.

You can use your spells (Unholy blight, death and decay, blood boil, so on) only to defend your self while in Alliance city's. (With a clause that it can be used to defend the city from attackers)

For those of you who play 40k or know the lore behind imperial pyskers.
All "Rouge" Pyskers are hunted down and killed, but... Sanctioned pyskers are A-OK! Not very trusted, or liked, but tolerated, more or less.

So this law would only be applicable for "Sanctioned Necromancers" and Rogue necromancers, to be hunted down and killed, without remorse.

How does that sound?

EDIT**!!!

I just had an awesome idea... Donor cards!

*a small card tied to a chain around someones necks reads*

"-Name- Is a donor!"
-In the event of my death in the field of battle, I hear by give permission for my remains to be used by sanctioned alliance necromancers to further the war effort till such time as my body is destroyed.

Have you watched any zombie movies? How do you think people feel looking at zombies? The same way people would look at having a ghoul out.

Necromancy would be strictly forbidden except a) under special permission & b) in combat zones.

Using your spells for self defense is another cheap excuse that was abused by poor role-players, "they started it", after barraging people with abuse ICly.

These circumstances, with everything that's going on with the Black Hand & Drustai only indicate/support heavy regulation of necromancy and strict control.

Should your character earn trust then he would get more leeway on his abilities.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Have you watched any zombie movies? How do you think people feel looking at zombies? The same way people would look at having a ghoul out.

The same way I assume they feel seeing a Death Knight, they too are, in varying degrees of rot and decay, not unlike ghouls them self's only more powerful.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Necromancy would be strictly forbidden except a) under special permission & b) in combat zones.

Death Knights are a product and continued form of necromancy. Every step, every gestures, could be translated to a an act of necrotic magic, like it or not, exceptions must be made for Death Knights, given their unique situation, and also the fact that they have been accepted into the alliance

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Using your spells for self defense is another cheap excuse that was abused by poor role-players, "they started it", after barraging people with abuse ICly.

This, I can't argue. I think it would be very very easy for a player to instigate a situation where they can cause trouble and use the spells, but that said - If someone plays a DK that goes looking for fights in alliance citys, they would have they're "License revoked" or could do, it's something to consider, also if they are a "Poor" roleplayer and are not listening to criticism, placing them on ignore seems a proper response, not gimping IC lore for every other DK. (I noticed a gnome RPing a child demon, thingy... When I was observing a IC duel, though the other players simply ignored this player "As a rule" that same practice could be applied to DK's abusing the system.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:These circumstances, with everything that's going on with the Black Hand & Drustai only indicate/support heavy regulation of necromancy and strict control.

This I can't comment on. But making Sanctioned necromancers would surely translate into better control? "Fuck about in the city, and you will be labled a "Rogue" necromancy. Then your gona be hunted down and destroyed.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Should your character earn trust then he would get more leeway on his abilities.

Ebon Knights have already done so, in helping defeat the Lich king I would have thought, you make it sound like they just showed up to the party lol

EDIT* and why no comment on the donor card! come on, it's a great idea!

Don't forget that death knights are not mindless brain eating ghouls, a ghoul is a ghoul. You know as well as I do what I meant in my explanation of the use of necrotic magic. Spells, abilities and resurrection.

Sanctioned necromancers would work, and I would thoroughly enjoying seeing the whole rounding up process be instigated by the Ministries of Defense & Justice in an effort to actively curb all use of necromancy. You see the problem is, most people tend to mess around and not accept the consequences, but I guess with some heavier discussion it may work.

The problem with your last statement is that while the Ebon Knights were welcomed back, that doesn't mean they were welcomed back to cause trouble. The current death knights and the majority of the stereotypical cliche bad guys are doing just that - Causing trouble. Therefore the Alliance is under no obligation to keep them or put up with them. Defeating the Lich King is all great and dandy, but if they are going around murdering people then surely they would be seen as nothing less than Scourge again?

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Don't forget that death knights are not mindless brain eating ghouls, a ghoul is a ghoul. You know as well as I do what I meant in my explanation of the use of necrotic magic. Spells, abilities and resurrection.

Actually I assumed you meant it more in regards to the appearance of a ghoul being disturbing, that said as I understand it, Death Knight ghouls are animated and bound to the will of the master who raised them, so it could be better described IMO as an extra limb, if the DK lost control the ghoul "should" simply turn to corpse dust, but the lore has so many holes in it and I honestly am having trouble finding solid reference material to cite

Vangrel Lansire wrote:Sanctioned necromancers would work, and I would thoroughly enjoying seeing the whole rounding up process be instigated by the Ministries of Defense & Justice in an effort to actively curb all use of necromancy. You see the problem is, most people tend to mess around and not accept the consequences, but I guess with some heavier discussion it may work.

Sounds like the council could have something to do! in conjunction with the SWR, personally I would really like to see this, I think it adds some flavor, perhaps create a census on the forum for alliance Death Knights during this with a little note - Sanctioned, has 2 warnings. etc

Vangrel Lansire wrote:The problem with your last statement is that while the Ebon Knights were welcomed back, that doesn't mean they were welcomed back to cause trouble. The current death knights and the majority of the stereotypical cliche bad guys are doing just that - Causing trouble. Therefore the Alliance is under no obligation to keep them or put up with them. Defeating the Lich King is all great and dandy, but if they are going around murdering people then surely they would be seen as nothing less than Scourge again?

Your posts are started to sound like you your self have been victim of this trend, and while you are welcomed to be ICly biased, but please give a thought to us "Good" DK's who don't use it as an excuse to be a bad-ass and power emote people, these restrictions really do not feel in keeping with the lore of what Death Knights have done, for the alliance, or the acceptance they had worked so hard for in joining the war effort after the LK's defeat. But as for the ones being trouble makers, the revoking of there license would surely be an easy way to coup with them, and if they refuse to acknowledge it, you can simply label them a "poor" RP'er and ignore any further actions they take?

Make less rules, pay more attention to the players.

Is <target character> an evil cultist douche? Off with his head!

Is <target character> fighting the good fight and being friendly? Not off with his head!

Your rules are bad when they get to a point where you limit people their role-play. If someone wants to play a Death Knight that fights the good fight, you should damn well let them. Not a lot of people do! I mean, necromancy is a pretty nasty business, so a DK is a pretty good class to play a nasty dude with. But not everyone wants to be a nasty dude that fights AGAINST the allies they had in life. Some players want to serve them in death. let them.

Pao wrote:The most important argument for assuming it's okay to use in the Alliance is the Death Knight class. It's there, players play it, so they're in the Alliance, doing their thing, using Necromancy.

Hell, the High King actually shouts his acceptance of this class in his army trough Stormwind every so often. Former heroes, he called them.

So, I'd say that the Death Knight class being a thing is a far heftier source, and therefore argument, than a single book in Dalaran.

Quoted for emphasis. The man speaks true.

Drustai wrote:(I was actually surprised that only a few people actually complained about it IC, I was expecting to get a lot more abuse over it).

After the battle for the barricade, we kinda needed every force multiplier we could get, which is the main reason, Amaryl didn't raise it as an issue.

If Nial would have gotten his way Dru would be unleashing Forst Wyrms onto the horde on a daily bases now.

On the topic of Necromancy: Kirin Tor=/= Alliance. Alliance allows necromancy in the form of the skills of the Knightts of the Ebon Blade who fight alongside it. Actual mage necromancers? I do not think so. Kel'Thuzad was almost expelled from the Kirin Tor only for having raised some rats, and the Lich King was one of the greatest threats the world had to face. So, I think that, aside death knights, whom are known to use if for the good(and to have a Highlord who would chop them off as soon as they act differently) I think nobody would be allowed to study or use necromancy, with the partial exception of the student of a trusted death knight(but that'd be sick, imho).

Vaell wrote:One thing we see time and time again is people complaining that Death Knights are treated badly in Stormwind - attacked unprovoked. Something that really bugs me tbh as it makes sense lore wise. These people raised your husbands/wives that went to fight in the war and used them against you and the lore shows (when a DK first tries to join the Alliance) everyone spits on them and throws various things at them.

When in the army, sure they can do their magic but if they're fighting alongside someone who could recognise them in the pig - don't complain if they accidently put an arrow in your head!

EDIT: It has always come across to me that Death Knights are loyal and fighting consistently, not just because of their nature, but to be accepted and forgiven for their role in aiding the Scourge. I'd compare them to the Oathbreakers in Lord of the Rings that fight at Minas Tirith (though not entirely, as they broke no oath, they just fought alongside the enemy). But would you share a drink gladly with one?!

If the guy has fought for years(almost five, by now) along the Army which defends your country, fought with some of the greatest and most powerful paladins in the world, helped in saving the world from the Lich King(not stating was in the 25 raid group who defeated him, just being there), I think that some kind of respect would be earned. Perhaps not a drink(a dk wouldn't probably feel like drinking anyway), but that depends much on his relation with the other person.

Attacking a death knight oenly? That would be stupid, at most. One, because it's not certain that an arrow in his head would finish him anyway, secondly because the King himself shouts every now and then that you must respect him as any other member of the Alliance. That kind of attack would probably lead you to be charged of assault and, if the excuse is"He's undead." probably even to one of sedition.

This said, I'm not stating that relations with dks should be cool and dandy. I'm all for mistrust, hatred and even right out insults or worse. But, as much as a dk would face consequences if he answers too much violently, though self defense against zealots shouldn't of course be prosecuted, as much as the attacker should face consequences. DKs are part of the Alliance, some people like it or not. Are in the Army, helped to defeat the LK. They're actually dying in the battles against the Horde, in Pandaria and not only. And this, much more than any story of server lore, should be in the back of the mind of any roleplayer. You can't ask for good dks, or complain because the class is roleplayed only by people who play villains, if the IC treatment of dk chars is pure shit. You can beat the dog only a certain number of times, before it bites back. It's actually very hard to keep a dk being 'good', if he sees only shit flung at him on an hour basis.

I won't comment on War Sect, only stating here and now, sue me, that any person who would try to revive it again should just do it , and IC decide to answer to a NPC, getting around the whole SW Council thing, or it will -never- work. And fuck the eventual drama ensuing OOC.