Necromancy being completely Illegal

Likewise for Dru. But the moment the Alliance turned on the people she cared for, instead of just herself, she broke. The same will likely happen with Decurius eventually.

Ironicly the other side of the coin is no better, go rogue you are hunted, go Lexadin and you are ignored.

Lexgrad wrote:

Likewise for Dru. But the moment the Alliance turned on the people she cared for, instead of just herself, she broke. The same will likely happen with Decurius eventually.

Ironicly the other side of the coin is no better, go rogue you are hunted, go Lexadin and you are ignored.

You come in and act bitter in every thread, it's ancient history that you should learn to deal with and move on from in order to create something better for yourself.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:

Some of them might have gone rogue not because they wanted to, but because they where left no other choice. No other room to role-play in. I've seen the Ebon Shroud go down because of persecution, and I believe War Sect is next.

War Sect can't be next because wasn't even given the chance to even exist. And this says it all.

We moved on one character, it made sense IC and Dru accepted it despite not being overly fond of it. The others following was a natural reaction based on their characters. Result was very unfortunate for war sect but it wasn't done in order to bring down war sect on an OOC or an IC level but that was the result since there was none to step in.

Lexgrad wrote:Perhaps Dru, unless blizz intended player DKs to be the norm. Regardless the Ebon Blade are no whipping posts, they have great support and respect, strong and hard allies in the AC. They fought alongside the alliance in Northrend, likely the war would have been years longer and thousands of souls more costly without them. It makes no sense to be so openly hostile towards them politicly or IC. It offends both of Thelos's points, IC it is not fun and in lore it is baseless.

*scraps all laws in order to legalise necromancy, murder, theft etc because there is no mention of either being illegal in lore. Stormwind becomes the wild west and everyone wears cowboy hats, characters die in the name of fun daily as Willy the Kid needs more sacrifices to create his army of ghouls in Stormwind colours.*

It makes sense when we have encountered as many cultists as we have. Neither you, Lexgrad, nor Decurius have been on the server for that long. So you're both unaware of just how long it has been going on. DB is a cultist-rich server and always has been. They've ruined it for the very few good darkcasters we've had over the years.

And no, it's utterly ridiculous for RP to be completely ignored when the lore you keep preaching doesn't actually contradict it. It's made quite clear in the lore that DKs are not responded to favorably. Thassarian was put in a suicide unit. Even when he lead the Andorhal army, the fact that he's a DK is commented on, "Varian has rolled the dice and placed a DK in charge" as one of the quests go. The warlocks in the coven state that they are only being 'closer' to being accepted, not entirely accepted, and in Lion's Landing the warlock NPC is sitting hidden down in the cellar.

And death knights are not well-loved, or respected. I don't know where you get that idea that they are, because every quest I've done that involves DKs has had them looked on poorly and unfavorably by their living allies. People will fight with them, but not with love and support.

It makes no sense to let darkcasters have completely free reign when the vast majority, both in RP and in lore, are evil villains.

Who said DK's are supposed to be loved, or warlocks, for that matter. We're trying to argue they shouldn't be persecuted just because of what they are. Judge character on who they are instead.

That doesn't mean they should be loved. That's for the characters that interact with them to decide.

Braiden wrote:*scraps all laws in order to legalise necromancy, murder, theft etc because there is no mention of either being illegal in lore. Stormwind becomes the wild west and everyone wears cowboy hats, characters die in the name of fun daily as Willy the Kid needs more sacrifices to create his army of ghouls in Stormwind colours.*

I would genuinely and unironicly like this.

But I know that I am in the monirity.

Server tradition is tradition for a reason, after all, so I will accept it even while disagreeing with it.

erwtenpeller wrote:Who said DK's are supposed to be loved, or warlocks, for that matter. We're trying to argue they shouldn't be persecuted just because of what they are. Judge character on who they are instead.

That doesn't mean they should be loved. That's for the characters that interact with them to decide.

Laws restricting just how far they can go isn't a bad thing. In fact, I'd find it much better to have a defined list of what is acceptable and what isn't than leaving it completely in the dark.

No one's saying to completely ban those classes, or even to prevent them from using their abilities (as long as they don't do it in the kingdom without approval). Only to restrict just how far they can go.

And what's wrong with persecution? Persecution is fun to RP, both for the persecutor and the persecuted.

Braiden wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:

Likewise for Dru. But the moment the Alliance turned on the people she cared for, instead of just herself, she broke. The same will likely happen with Decurius eventually.

Ironicly the other side of the coin is no better, go rogue you are hunted, go Lexadin and you are ignored.

You come in and act bitter in every thread, it's ancient history that you should learn to deal with and move on from in order to create something better for yourself.

Lex is still current Brai and his RP is still imposable due to the attitudes of others.

Lexgrad wrote:Perhaps Dru, unless blizz intended player DKs to be the norm. Regardless the Ebon Blade are no whipping posts, they have great support and respect, strong and hard allies in the AC. They fought alongside the alliance in Northrend, likely the war would have been years longer and thousands of souls more costly without them. It makes no sense to be so openly hostile towards them politicly or IC. It offends both of Thelos's points, IC it is not fun and in lore it is baseless.

*scraps all laws in order to legalise necromancy, murder, theft etc because there is no mention of either being illegal in lore. Stormwind becomes the wild west and everyone wears cowboy hats, characters die in the name of fun daily as Willy the Kid needs more sacrifices to create his army of ghouls in Stormwind colours.*

Yeah... ya know all other servers do not have player made laws. Good or bad is up for debate but when the laws ignore official lore and are making RP hard for a particular group it is clearly a problem. Another example of this is the completely stupid player made idea that draenei cant preach in the cathedral. We are a server with Scarlets that in lore are not loved by the authority and Draenai who cant preach even though they are curtrently teaching the heir to the kingdom. Stupid.

Anyway my points made, I will leave the thread now.

Drustai wrote:

And what's wrong with persecution? Persecution is fun to RP, both for the persecutor and the persecuted.

I hope to God all the persecuted agree with you.

From what I have seen, however, does not seem to be the case.

This whole thread makes me glad I play Horde.

Rules, rules, more rules, /yawn.

Lexgrad wrote:

Braiden wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:

Likewise for Dru. But the moment the Alliance turned on the people she cared for, instead of just herself, she broke. The same will likely happen with Decurius eventually.

Ironicly the other side of the coin is no better, go rogue you are hunted, go Lexadin and you are ignored.

You come in and act bitter in every thread, it's ancient history that you should learn to deal with and move on from in order to create something better for yourself.

Lex is still current Brai and his RP is still imposable due to the attitudes of others.

Lexgrad wrote:Perhaps Dru, unless blizz intended player DKs to be the norm. Regardless the Ebon Blade are no whipping posts, they have great support and respect, strong and hard allies in the AC. They fought alongside the alliance in Northrend, likely the war would have been years longer and thousands of souls more costly without them. It makes no sense to be so openly hostile towards them politicly or IC. It offends both of Thelos's points, IC it is not fun and in lore it is baseless.

*scraps all laws in order to legalise necromancy, murder, theft etc because there is no mention of either being illegal in lore. Stormwind becomes the wild west and everyone wears cowboy hats, characters die in the name of fun daily as Willy the Kid needs more sacrifices to create his army of ghouls in Stormwind colours.*

Yeah... ya know all other servers do not have player made laws. Good or bad is up for debate but when the laws ignore official lore and are making RP hard for a particular group it is clearly a problem. Another example of this is the completely stupid player made idea that draenei cant preach in the cathedral. We are a server with Scarlets that in lore are not loved by the authority and Draenai who cant preach even though they are curtrently teaching the heir to the kingdom. Stupid.

Anyway my points made, I will leave the thread now.

Scarlets are no longer accepted by the authority in RP. It's something I've put my foot down on with Areyah. Chapter aren't Scarlets, so they don't count, yet.

Also, who says draenei can't preach in the Cathedral? I know the idea has been brought up a few times, but as far as I know it isn't actually codified in church law or anything.

And the laws don't ignore official lore, seeing as official lore outright says that warlocks and death knights aren't allowed to bring their minions into the city. Now, you could make the case that the spells would be allowed, but in lore again the only time we see it allowed is in war zones. Most older lore describes it as outright illegal (such as the book Wulfgnar linked, as well as older WRPG and WoWRPG sourcebooks), which implies that the only place where it would be legal is in battle in defense of the Alliance.

We moved on one character, it made sense IC and Dru accepted it despite not being overly fond of it. The others following was a natural reaction based on their characters. Result was very unfortunate for war sect but it wasn't done in order to bring down war sect on an OOC or an IC level but that was the result since there was none to step in.

There could be none to step in because it wouldn't have made any sense. I have the actual Commander of War Sect alive and ready. But if he gets to SW and gets arrested 'cause he's openly a warlock, then maybe it's just better to shelve it.

*scraps all laws in order to legalise necromancy, murder, theft etc because there is no mention of either being illegal in lore. Stormwind becomes the wild west and everyone wears cowboy hats, characters die in the name of fun daily as Willy the Kid needs more sacrifices to create his army of ghouls in Stormwind colours.*

Straw man much? Lex just said that it makes no sense lorewise to persecute Death Knight, and it's true. To what Dru said, what ertwenpeller said. This has gone way too far.

Warlocks are in coven state only for the outlooks, they openly fight in the Alliance. Again, I don't see the King asking the warlock who summoned the demon in the naval battle at Azshara to get arrested for being a warlock.

The world of the game is not made by our rp chars. Sure, they're a part of it, but keep in mind they're a minority.
Even if 50 dks were rped as villains, or even 200 they are and were a minority lore wise.

No one's saying to completely ban those classes, or even to prevent them from using their abilities (as long as they don't do it in the kingdom without approval). Only to restrict just how far they can go.

It is instead what's happening. Warlocks and dks can't be roleplayed and played naturally their classes without getting pushed IC to the point of becoming villains. And this is not supposed to happen, and shouldn't.

Persecution is good. Persecution when breaks lore, or it's pushed on chars and rpers who don't really make anything to deserve it IC, no. And being a dk or a lock it is not a good reason, lore and server lore wise, unless the latter ignores the former. In such a case, I'm out, 'cause I don't rp with lorelollers.

Grim wrote:This whole thread makes me glad I play Horde.

Rules, rules, more rules, /yawn.

There's plenty alternatives on the Alliance-side if you don't want to role-play with all the rules and such. It's just that the Stormwind society is over-represented on DefiasRP and Alliance who role-play outside of it don't tend to post much.

I was wondering why the Alliance side seems so obsessed with clarifying, restricting and codifying everything.

Grim wrote:I was wondering why the Alliance side seems so obsessed with clarifying, restricting and codifying everything.

Just the vocal minority, I think.

At least from my guild I am the only active user of these forums -- and we've got a steady core of about 12 players that role-play semi-daily.

I imagine it's the same for many Alliance guilds out there.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:Warlocks are in coven state only for the outlooks, they openly fight in the Alliance. Again, I don't see the King asking the warlock who summoned the demon in the naval battle at Azshara to get arrested for being a warlock.

Nor are we claiming that he should, since that warlock was fighting in battle.

The world of the game is not made by our rp chars. Sure, they're a part of it, but keep in mind they're a minority.
Even if 50 dks were rped as villains, or even 200 they are and were a minority lore wise.

I can go to WoWpedia and get a complete list of every Alliance-aligned darkcaster, of which there are no more than 20 or 30. It's far less than the amount of player darkcasters we've seen over the years.

You and Lexgrad keep pulling numbers out of your ass. You are making the assumption that just because the classes are open to players, that means there's a million of faceless NPC darkcasters roaming around.

The only numbers that count are the actual NPCs we have seen, and the actual player characters we have seen in RP. Not the faceless masses that may or may not exist. You're trying to build a lore case using evidence that doesn't actually exist anywhere but in theory.

The death knight numbers argument is beaten rather easily. The only death knights that exist in the Alliance, are the death knights of Acherus. Acherus is a single floating necropolis. Meaning it would have had a finite crew of a couple thousand at most for simple fact of physical volume. Then, consider that many of those DKs were killed in the Battle for Light's Hope as it was intended to be a suicide mission and resulted in a near complete annihilation of the Scourge forces, a handful returned to the Scourge, and a majority remained neutral (you guys keep bringing up Northrend, even though most of the ones that fought in Northrend weren't aligned with the Alliance), leaves only a very few that actually returned to their factions. That's not even counting the ones that might have gone rogue, as so many player ones have done.

And then consider that there is no source anywhere that indicates that the death knights are attempting to replenish their numbers. So their numbers, already very few, are just getting lower and lower as time goes on.

No one's saying to completely ban those classes, or even to prevent them from using their abilities (as long as they don't do it in the kingdom without approval). Only to restrict just how far they can go.

It is instead what's happening. Warlocks and dks can't be roleplayed and played naturally their classes without getting pushed IC to the point of becoming villains. And this is not supposed to happen, and shouldn't.

Most of the people who have played them have absolutely no self-discipline or control. Dru lasted for 7 years. Most don't even last a few months.

You can certainly blame some of it on the persecution, but I'd blame the player just as much for not having the fortitude to endure it. I'd actually blame the persecution on the characters that went rogue, rather than blaming the characters that went rogue on the persecution.

Persecution is good. Persecution when breaks lore, or it's pushed on chars and rpers who don't really make anything to deserve it IC, no. And being a dk or a lock it is not a good reason, lore and server lore wise, unless the latter ignores the former. In such a case, I'm out, 'cause I don't rp with lorelollers.

You guys have yet to post any lore supporting your point, beyond trying to claim that there are faceless masses of darkcasters roaming about that have no actual presence in lore.

Lore shows that darkcasters are a very rare addition to Alliance forces, only occasionally appearing. When they do appear, it's usually only one or two in a single army. The vast majority of darkcasters seen in lore are evil villains. Which is how it is in RP, too--an occasional appearance of good darkcasters, and a huge majority of evil ones.

Grim wrote:I was wondering why the Alliance side seems so obsessed with clarifying, restricting and codifying everything.

*Lawful Neutral IRL*

*Lawful Neutral IRL*

And for that you win +10 internets!

Pao wrote:

Grim wrote:This whole thread makes me glad I play Horde.

Rules, rules, more rules, /yawn.

There's plenty alternatives on the Alliance-side if you don't want to role-play with all the rules and such. It's just that the Stormwind society is over-represented on DefiasRP and Alliance who role-play outside of it don't tend to post much.

I suppose not all enjoy the politics scene going on that influences these kinds of things. Being involved can be fun intrigue tough, why not attempt to have something you don't like IC changed by getting involved in one way or another for instance? Put forward petitions, argue your case, get people to sign lists, whatever. Perhaps it is a dumb suggestion seeing as if you don't like the politics side you'll likely not like rping that kind of thing either.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:

We moved on one character, it made sense IC and Dru accepted it despite not being overly fond of it. The others following was a natural reaction based on their characters. Result was very unfortunate for war sect but it wasn't done in order to bring down war sect on an OOC or an IC level but that was the result since there was none to step in.

There could be none to step in because it wouldn't have made any sense. I have the actual Commander of War Sect alive and ready. But if he gets to SW and gets arrested 'cause he's openly a warlock, then maybe it's just better to shelve it.

Law doesn't say you cant openly be a warlock, it just restricts usage of fel and demonic summons in the kingdom itself and even then it's possible to be allowed in certain cases. Hence a warlock character should not be arrested just for being a warlock but rather if it misuses its powers (in the kingdom of Stormwind). If church fanatics disagree and act up against they are not acting lawful. Because you have had bad experiences related to cases you disagree on does not mean they are the rule. Likewise death knights are obviously not illegal (which the ebon treaty addition to the new law drafts will clarify if people didnt get it already).

The laws are there for immersion purposes and to create conflict IC that develops your character (or at times unfortunately end your character). Frankly they also serve to provide villains for characters that believe themselves to be unjustly judged, which can lead to the death of those characters that abide by the law or uphold it. I see the point that some considers there being player made laws at all unfair, but if we are to disregard everything then we might as well go with the wild west scenario and be done with it... then of course those playing guards would make up their own laws on the fly instead, which might be fun for them at least.

In the book the Shattering, wasn't it made clear about 50.000, people died in Northrend alliance side?

And simply looking at RL-wars, taking a big general estimation: that somewhere between 1% and 15% of a nation's total population dies from a war. And I'd wager in an assault, where the alliance and horde were invaders. I'd reckon its on the lower side of that equation

The idea that countless unnamed Dks would be walking the streets is kinda silly. Especially considering Dks tended to be made out of the best of soldiers.

Edit: and last i checked or noticed, the only times when dreanei were forbidden to preach in the cathedral is when they let themselves be pushed out by Anethioneans.

Amaryl wrote:Edit: and last i checked or noticed, the only times when dreanei were forbidden to preach in the cathedral is when they let themselves be pushed out by Anethioneans.

That's because they're aliens, not of this world, and trying to force themselves into human society and corrupt our young with their outlandish views and they think they're holier than we are and and and... *eye twitch*

GET OUT OF OUR CITY, ALIEN SCUM!

Pao wrote:

Grim wrote:I was wondering why the Alliance side seems so obsessed with clarifying, restricting and codifying everything.

Just the vocal minority, I think.

At least from my guild I am the only active user of these forums -- and we've got a steady core of about 12 players that role-play semi-daily.

I imagine it's the same for many Alliance guilds out there.

na ah you lie me henita *nods* but no Im gone for a few hours and this thread has exploded! my very simple oppinion on this matter realy is this is being vastly over thaught.. everyoone is looking to deep into what is realy a relitivly simple issue.

necromancy/shadow/warlockery = bad
- bad = evil = illegal and persicute
- good = chaotic good = persicute.. but acept they did good and give a lesser sentence..

shadow and necromancy is being treated ic as a very black and white subject when it is actualy far far from that.. taking drussy as a key example.. for the most part.. she used the tools she had to do good and she got the full heavy ic punishment rarther than a reduced sentence for "at least doing some good"

I am all for having a dedicated section where known dk's and locks can be known and practice saftly under knowlege whist rogues are hunted.. however there is no need to over complicate things eather

Farelin/Dijie wrote:

Amaryl wrote:Edit: and last i checked or noticed, the only times when dreanei were forbidden to preach in the cathedral is when they let themselves be pushed out by Anethioneans.

That's because they're aliens, not of this world, and trying to force themselves into human society and corrupt our young with their outlandish views and they think they're holier than we are and and and... *eye twitch*

GET OUT OF OUR CITY, ALIEN SCUM!

ps monny has never let any aethorian push her around and is not likley to let that begin XD

Lets look at the brass facts here:

1) It is NOT racism to dislike undead in the same way it is in real life to dislike a person of a different ethnic race. To even compare the two is beyond idiotic. These people ARE killers. They HAVE to kill to survive. They also make everything around them decay and wither. Just because the King says "I let them in" doesn't suddenly make them accepted. Sure, your character may accept them, but DKs were NOT welcomed in a warm manner. Please can anyone thinking that DKs are all accepted in Stormwind take a minute and picture yourselves in the situation? So what if they fight for you? They stink, they carry a big fuck off weapon constantly, they kill other living things to survive and harvest souls. They were also killing your people and they kill life around them. They're only accepted because the King wants as many swords as possible!

2) Necromancy is extremely dangerous and corrupting. The Kirin Tor do not accept it and if we're going off what is in game, we have no purely magical Necromancers - only DKs who were created before the fall of the Lich King. Why would the King push for more of these people?

3) Shadow/Fel magic is corruptable. They are mistreated in the city - hence why they're hiding out in a basement. This is a hard one to compare to real life, but you need to picture yourself in the situation. These people use magic that is known as extremely dangerous and often unpredictable. They WILL at some point turn to evil. They're ticking time bombs, but they're useful in battle. That - again - is the only reason they're accepted. This is a World of WAR; the same way chemical warfare was used in WW2 is how I'd picture locks. It is effective to use them, they're extremely deadly but you know it is wrong.

The entire point of the game is consistent war and arrogant players that are always trying to be the best. It is one of the most interesting things about the game - the Alliance and the Horde both want to best the other and are beginning to go to any lengths to do so.

I hate the idea of "let the player do as he likes!" because we're a community that follows a major set of rules laid down by our lore. Let a player do as he likes in a novel or a short story but not if he wants to be a part of the majority. When someone else doesn't take lore or common sense into account, they ruin other people's immersion. Instead of looking at the individual - look at the community as a mass.

DKs are not liked by the public.

EDIT: It isn't about avoiding cities or being harassed OOCly - it is about the world we are Role-playing in. Be smart.

I dont think anyone was suggesting they were?

A few people though dislike the idea of overly regulating or enforcing what should be a natural and personal bias against the undead.

Grim wrote:I dont think anyone was suggesting they were?

A few people though dislike the idea of overly regulating or enforcing what should be a natural and personal bias against the undead.

I saw Lex saying something about bigots who have superiority issues are the only ones who are racist towards undead.

Braiden wrote:

The laws are there for immersion purposes and to create conflict IC that develops your character (or at times unfortunately end your character). Frankly they also serve to provide villains for characters that believe themselves to be unjustly judged, which can lead to the death of those characters that abide by the law or uphold it. I see the point that some considers there being player made laws at all unfair, but if we are to disregard everything then we might as well go with the wild west scenario and be done with it... then of course those playing guards would make up their own laws on the fly instead, which might be fun for them at least.

Braiden, while I appreciate the effort of you trying to involve as many people as possible, I am just going to say -- not wihout empathy to your genorist -- "No thanks".

I've tried for little over a year and found I just don't enjoy any of it. it stifles my creativity, slows down my role-play and generally drains the energy and the will to play out of me. I don't want to partake in the current "Cops&Robbers" Stormwind paradigm of Crime&Punishment-style court drama.

I want to be out there in the world, solving mysteries, experiencing thrilling adventures and fighting the good fighting

Rules bore me. Fighting crazy cyborg zombie pirate dinosaurs shooting lasers and shitting gold in prehistoric times is what I enjoy.

And you know what?

That's fine. It's completely fine. It's great, even! Variety is the spice of life!

The kind of role-play you and Drustai champion is not for everyone. The only reason I bring up this point time and time again is to make you aware that there are people out there you are in danger of forcing into a kind of scenario that they might not enjoy they don't. Stick to persecuting and trialing the people that enjoy being trialed. Live and let live.

Edit: Chaotic Neutral IRL.