Druidic Healing Interacting With Death Knights?

erwtenpeller wrote:Is it not possible for everyone to role-play their own interpretation as they see fit?

Feral / Blackfall wrote:Where is it stated directly that nature magic can heal undead?

Game mechanics.

Ahh, I don't take game mechanics as lore at all. There's far too many things that are simplified for game mechanics that entirely clash with the lore. Like, for example, undead people being alive and humanoid xD

erwtenpeller wrote:Is it not possible for everyone to role-play their own interpretation as they see fit?

Feral / Blackfall wrote:Where is it stated directly that nature magic can heal undead?

Game mechanics.

I'm not saying that everyone cant role play their own interpretation but considering there's a discussion going I see no harm in -discussing- it. Neither me nor Drustai is an official source, we just have our opinions and like to argue our case. Also, game mechanics while a convenient source might not be optimal from an RP point of view as then we can all take several fireballs to the face without much of an impact and instantly throw away a million spells, spin around with our weapons in peoples faces, become invisible and stab people in the back (which the one getting stabbed survives unless it's low level or very poorly geared), run forever without getting tierd, eat conjured cake in order to recover health/mana, have an unlimited supply of arrows, only play 11 classes (meaning no actual necromancers but only death knight and death knights would be limited to spells in their spellbook) and so on

'Not stated directly' is not a valid reason to dismiss something that could potentially make sense, IMO. Just because it hasn't been stated in canon material, doesn't mean that it isn't there.

'Game mechanics' are likewise not proof positive of something's existence. Sometimes they just avoid a game-mechanic problem, such as the aforementioned non-undead Forsaken.

In terms of the intent behind druidic magic conflicting with that; well, that's a matter of philosophy. There are (or at least were) druids in Silverpine, earnestly attempting to help the Forsaken there. Also, druidic magic is canonically a highly protean, flexible art - after all, tinfoil-hat-theories aside, I don't think the World Tree was ever originally intended to be some sort of giant demon-killing landmine.

I'm inclined to stick with my original stance, in that druidic magic isn't well-suited to healing Death Knights, but could be bent to that purpose with the right circumstances and some lateral thinking.

erwtenpeller wrote:How I would personally play this out, is by having the druid revive the dead tissue temporarily, then restoring the tissue. As soon as the druid stops channeling their magic, the tissue dies again, but is left as good as new.

This would require a great deal of effort on the druids behalf, of course.

I've personally done that on one occassion myself, by having a good source of life energy to take from some other natural thing, and building from that (which would often be necessary anyway).
The last part of the quote I find important though, and you'd have to take into account the size and severity of the injury as well.

Perhaps I'll ask around ICly among the elf druids still around, and if they say it can't be done, take it as my character -hoping- to find a way to do it despite -believing- it's not yet possible.

Creative RP eh? EH?

But I like Thrakha's take on it, too--open-minded but logical is a good way to go

Allonia_Miral wrote:I've personally done that on one occassion myself, by having a good source of life energy to take from some other natural thing, and building from that (which would often be necessary anyway).
The last part of the quote I find important though, and you'd have to take into account the size and severity of the injury as well.

I like the concept, but wait--druids can -take- life energy? They can... just drain away life force? Is that actually a thing? Because that would make the best assassin, ever. (I believed that the way druids worked was to request assistance from the spirits--it's what I've seen in lore--and that for "big" jobs, bigger spirits are asked for help. I also RP it as sort of tapping into the natural web of life, but I am quite curious as to your take on it, as that seems pretty neat.)

If you take any sort of lifeshaping magic to its logical conclusion, you've got something pretty sick.

Giving life-force? Do it in an uncontrolled manner, cause hugely boosted cellular mitosis rates and kill someone with an eruption of tumours.

Changing life-patterns? Well, that carotid artery could always be re-routed, and the heart-rate sped up to, oh, I don't know, a hundred beats a second. That'd sting a bit.

One can limit these things a little by saying that it's extremely difficult to manipulate, draw life from or give life to a living creature by means of druidic magic without that creature's consent.

However, I'm digressing from the topic at hand.

Thrakha wrote:If you take any sort of lifeshaping magic to its logical conclusion, you've got something pretty sick.

Giving life-force? Do it in an uncontrolled manner, cause hugely boosted cellular mitosis rates and kill someone with an eruption of tumours.

Changing life-patterns? Well, that carotid artery could always be re-routed, and the heart-rate sped up to, oh, I don't know, a hundred beats a second. That'd sting a bit.

One can limit these things a little by saying that it's extremely difficult to manipulate, draw life from or give life to a living creature by means of druidic magic without that creature's consent.

However, I'm digressing from the topic at hand.

True, and fascinating (and opens up a ton of further ideas--and don't worry, I don't mind if the thread gets a bit off-topic, finding it interesting!), but it also moves into the spectrum of--does the Druid -control- the magic, or simply guide it?

If they do call upon the spirits of the wilds to help them heal, and these spirits have the option to not answer, I'm guessing they would balk at such "atrocities to the Balance" being performed. That said, there -have- been plenty of examples of druidic magic gone overboard, misused and so forth, so I'm not sure how far that can be taken, either (think Wailing Caverns--I'd say druids of the Flame also but I'm pretty sure they were gifted excess magic by Ragnaros, an entirely different source).

http://www.defiasrp.com/t5882-what-can-druids-do-lorewise

Even tho it's more offensive oriented some of the last points are same here and there.

Overall i'm not sure, druid healing is kind of related to life and life is needed even by DKs, but i'm not good at guessing.

I'd just like to say that the Warlock abilities drain life, mortal coil (The Spell Formerly Known As Death Coil, SFKADC), harvest life could be considered necromantic. Tbh, I am not really sure where Blizzard draws the line, but there are a fair few fantasy settings in which these spells are considered necromancy.

Oh and they heal.

...Now I want to RP a life-sucking druid that runs around bringing autumn instead of spring. Thanks.

--

On Game Mechanics being a good source:

It's the ultimate canon. The game mechanics are what drive the game, and the game drives the story. Not the other way around, despite what many might prefer.

Game mechanics are a perfectly reasonable source of information, but much like the fireballs and the backstabbing Braiden mentioned, we tend to tone it down a little to create an environment that's more suitable for telling (dramatic) stories. In the end, though, in essence, it is game mechanics that drive canon.

There's nothing wrong with looking to the very core of the game for inspiration or explanations. I'm not saying we should start role-playing like we PvP, that wouldn't be a lot of fun, and not constructive to telling our stories. I'm just saying we shouldn't just completely disregard the mechanics of the game, just because they don't fit into our own little, role-play crated frame of mind.

That is just the way -I- see things though, no body has to agree with me.

In conclusion:
Game mechanics dictate that druidic (nature) magics (abilities) can heal undead (player characters). There are several ways this could be explained through what we know about the extended lore. Pick your favorite, and run with that.

Braiden wrote:

Drustai wrote:

Braiden wrote:Give me a source on that Dru, one that is canon because in most settings I have played in necromancy is in essence death or rather death energies used in magical ways in order to raise the dead, decay the living etc (yes I have a weak spot for playing necromancers in tabletop rpgs )

Because if the undead only required death, they would not need to feed on the living.

I have always played necromancers, since long before I played Dru. It is essentially the only type of caster I regularly play. And never can the undead survive on just shadow energy (or if they can survive, it's always in a pitiful, insane, and weakened state). Undeath is always an unholy perversion of life and death (afterall, why do you think it's also called unlife?). Yes, it focuses on death and shadow, but if it was completely death it'd just be a corpse.

As for sources, just consider the fact that all necromancy spells require life essence to cast, whether that be blood, soul energy, or something else. All of a DK's abilities are operated via the draining of life energy from their targets.

An undead without life energy starves, going insane and losing all the control it has. At the very least, life energy is required for maintaining much of the control and direction in the undead creature. And as life energy is shown to always be required for necromantic healing, life energy is therefore also required if one wishes to tend to an undead's wounds. You can't heal with just shadow. Even Death Coil is fueled by runic power, which is gained through causing pain and suffering to a living being.

Well ok, maybe death energy is an oversimplification but the fact that you forcefully feed your magics with life that you pervert and drain or pain is far from the same as being healed by forces based on life (the classic case of conventional healing spells damaging undead in many, many rpgs is example of this). The fact that undead generally feeds on life does not mean that they react the same to healing by natural energies, in fact one could argue that the very essence of necromantic beings and the way life force is perverted by necromantic spells is against the natural order (what is dead stays dead) and that it would be difficult if not impossible to heal them by natural means if we pull the other side of this coin. Conclusion is that life and death is connected of course and it's only logical that you need essence of life such as blood, souls, pain or anything else in order to continue to stay alive after death but I still argue this does not mean the undead should be affected the same by actual healing spells (except for light that blizzard has already confirmed in a way but not given much explanation to). We use the same facts/ideas in different ways, I'm not saying yours is wrong but this is my opinion.

The "classic case" of conventional healing spells damaging undead is not present in WarCraft. It is one of the things Blizzard has specifically done away with. It was present in the RPG sourcebooks, but is contradicted by all sources in-game.

And in this case, I consider the game mechanics to be canon, because Blizzard almost always treats in-game mechanics as canon (with the exception of Forsaken/Death Knight/Language mechanics for the sake of balance/community, all of which have been specifically stated as non-canon). Even the various upgraded and changed spells in MoP have been actual, in-character changes. Don't believe me? Read the Legacy of the Masters, found in the Slaughtered Lamb crypts, it specifically says that all the new abilities the various classes got, such as death knights learning Control Undead, and even warriors using War Banners, were the result of in-character research.

"The pages within contain the story of the six master warlock trainers who unlocked the secrets of the most destructive forces to ever threaten Azeroth.

This rare alliance resulted in the new magics which were unleashed to all Warlock sects after The Cataclysm.

In the wake of The Cataclysm, the rising tensions between The Horde and Alliance have driven the greatest heroes of Azeroth to train for war. Warriors have readied their war banners. The Death Knights of Acherus have learned to control the Undead and it is even said the mages are researching ways to undo time itself." - Legacy of the Masters

Therefore, I'm inclined to say that game mechanics are taken IC except when they are specifically stated to be non-canon. For example, I treat the death knight raise dead ability as IC (meaning necromancers can resurrect people back to the living, not just to undeath, something I've incorporated in my RP), and have always treated priests as being able to use both shadow and Light (something confirmed with Anduin in MoP). Therefore, I see druids and other such classes as being able to heal the undead, because mechanically they can.

There is also this comment, "Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group." (Ask CDev 1). The way it is written is from a mechanical standpoint. Forsaken tanks, in groups with priest and paladins. Which indicates to me, that the devs consider our groups to be IC. That these instances and raids, are IC. And that therefore, because any group combination is possible, because druids can heal undead mechanically, that druids would therefore be able to heal undead ICly.

Also, we know that canonically, some plants can heal the undead. Yes, plants. Not necromancy, but actual plants, pulled right out of the ground and fed to an undead creature.

"On this farm grows a special type of mushroom known as the mudsnout. Go to the stead and gather mudsnout for Kasha... This mushroom is toxic to living things, but provides a restorative boost to the undead." - Kingslayer Orcus, Quest: Kasha will Fly Again

If a natural growing plant, completely unaffected by necromancy, can regenerate an undead creature's wounds, then I'd say that druidic magic, which manipulates nature, would be capable of it as well.

Last, but not least, Lichborne makes a death knight "mechanically" undead. It makes them susceptible to anti-undead abilities like Turn Evil, it makes them immune to abilities undead are normally immune to, like Sap, Polymorph, Hex, Sleep, Charm, and non-holy Fear, and it makes them able to be healed by Death Coil. It does not make them harmed by Holy healing spells, and it does not make them immune to Nature healing spells. I do not consider this something Blizzard would have just 'happened' to leave out when in all other ways the spell makes death knights mechanically undead. Even when death knight characters are mechanically undead, they are still able to be healed by druids.

Simply put, many sources hint at the possibility. There is not a single source that says druidic magic does not work on them, or even hint at it, to my knowledge. Therefore, I trust the mechanics, rather than people's opinion of what they think it should be (as no one has yet posted a source that says it doesn't work), because everything I have seen from Blizzard says that mechanics are IC unless otherwise stated. If Blizzard outright says it doesn't work, then it won't work, like they have said with Forsaken/DK's being mechanically living and canonically undead and the Language barrier crap. But they have not outright said druidic magic doesn't work on undead. So, I go with the default. And the default is that mechanics are IC, and that therefore it does work.

Feral / Blackfall wrote:

Drustai wrote:
An undead without life energy starves, going insane and losing all the control it has. At the very least, life energy is required for maintaining much of the control and direction in the undead creature.

Can I get some canon source on this? The only thing I've heard that's like this is the "hunger," instilled in death knights who were raised by the Lich King (and only them) to fuel their loyalty through forcing a desire to cause death and pain?

This is not unique to death knights. Almost every undead requires sustenance in the form of some addiction. Zombies and ghouls (which includes Forsaken) need to feed on flesh, darkfallen feed on blood, ghosts hunger for physical contact with the living (which drains and kills the victim), and so on.

As far as what "type" of magic life/undead energy are: Death knights are animated by shadow, and I'd always heard of necromancy as a -form- of shadow. Some fan lore states that they can heal mortals through blood magic, which is fair enough as that's a manipulation of the blood itself (and may well be able to heal in the way increased blood flow/etc would). However, necrotic magic can't heal the living.

Necromancy is a form of shadow magic. But shadow magic is at its core about void, about consumption, about draining from one source to feed one's self. Shadow cannot exist without something to feed on. It is always hungry. "I must feed." Just look at all the shadowpriest spells... "Vampiric". That is the essence of what shadow is. It is vampiric. A shadowpriest can heal their entire party via the slaughter of their opponents through Vampiric Embrace. Devouring Plague, an obvious necromancy spell, heals the shadowpriest as it does damage to their opponent. Shadow magic is all about consumption.

Now, necrotic energy can't heal the living, because it's already become an unholy perversion of both shadow and life. Shadow magic (and therefore necromancy/blood magic) can. That's the entire basis behind abilities like Drain Life. You drain life essence from one being, and transfer it into yourself. You can also do this with others, draining life from one source and into your target. DKs do this through the old Rune Tap and Raise Dead. We also see necromantic healing through healthstones and soulstones (using soul energy as a battery for restoring life energy).

Necromancy can heal the living. It is not only about raising undead or tending to undead. Likewise, as my above response to Braiden shows, druid magic can heal the unliving, because many sources state the canonicity of such mechanics (except when directly stated to be non-canon), while I have yet to see one that says druids can't heal the unliving.

As a druid I feel compelled to point out mushrooms aren't plants but fungi.

Yeaaaah... But you also summon mushrooms, so I think we're good on druids and fungus.

It was only for the sake of correctness! I'll have you know mushrooms tend to be very intelligent and picky about what they're called, and they consider plant to be one of the greatest insults!

I don't really follow game mechanics when it comes to RP, as most of the mechanics were made for the game to work in dungeons and raids. The game was not made based on RPing after all. Of course I never judge others for how they RP. It's all down to preference.

Also the druidism magic still working and bringing the tissue back to life, just for it to die again is a very interesting concept. Although the way I saw it the host is only being kept alive by the necrotic energy within, rather then an actual life source. So I don't know if there would be anything for druids to actually work with.

Drustai wrote:

Braiden wrote:

Drustai wrote:

Braiden wrote:Give me a source on that Dru, one that is canon because in most settings I have played in necromancy is in essence death or rather death energies used in magical ways in order to raise the dead, decay the living etc (yes I have a weak spot for playing necromancers in tabletop rpgs )

Because if the undead only required death, they would not need to feed on the living.

I have always played necromancers, since long before I played Dru. It is essentially the only type of caster I regularly play. And never can the undead survive on just shadow energy (or if they can survive, it's always in a pitiful, insane, and weakened state). Undeath is always an unholy perversion of life and death (afterall, why do you think it's also called unlife?). Yes, it focuses on death and shadow, but if it was completely death it'd just be a corpse.

As for sources, just consider the fact that all necromancy spells require life essence to cast, whether that be blood, soul energy, or something else. All of a DK's abilities are operated via the draining of life energy from their targets.

An undead without life energy starves, going insane and losing all the control it has. At the very least, life energy is required for maintaining much of the control and direction in the undead creature. And as life energy is shown to always be required for necromantic healing, life energy is therefore also required if one wishes to tend to an undead's wounds. You can't heal with just shadow. Even Death Coil is fueled by runic power, which is gained through causing pain and suffering to a living being.

Well ok, maybe death energy is an oversimplification but the fact that you forcefully feed your magics with life that you pervert and drain or pain is far from the same as being healed by forces based on life (the classic case of conventional healing spells damaging undead in many, many rpgs is example of this). The fact that undead generally feeds on life does not mean that they react the same to healing by natural energies, in fact one could argue that the very essence of necromantic beings and the way life force is perverted by necromantic spells is against the natural order (what is dead stays dead) and that it would be difficult if not impossible to heal them by natural means if we pull the other side of this coin. Conclusion is that life and death is connected of course and it's only logical that you need essence of life such as blood, souls, pain or anything else in order to continue to stay alive after death but I still argue this does not mean the undead should be affected the same by actual healing spells (except for light that blizzard has already confirmed in a way but not given much explanation to). We use the same facts/ideas in different ways, I'm not saying yours is wrong but this is my opinion.

The "classic case" of conventional healing spells damaging undead is not present in WarCraft. It is one of the things Blizzard has specifically done away with. It was present in the RPG sourcebooks, but is contradicted by all sources in-game.

And in this case, I consider the game mechanics to be canon, because Blizzard almost always treats in-game mechanics as canon (with the exception of Forsaken/Death Knight/Language mechanics for the sake of balance/community, all of which have been specifically stated as non-canon). Even the various upgraded and changed spells in MoP have been actual, in-character changes. Don't believe me? Read the Legacy of the Masters, found in the Slaughtered Lamb crypts, it specifically says that all the new abilities the various classes got, such as death knights learning Control Undead, and even warriors using War Banners, were the result of in-character research.

"The pages within contain the story of the six master warlock trainers who unlocked the secrets of the most destructive forces to ever threaten Azeroth.

This rare alliance resulted in the new magics which were unleashed to all Warlock sects after The Cataclysm.

In the wake of The Cataclysm, the rising tensions between The Horde and Alliance have driven the greatest heroes of Azeroth to train for war. Warriors have readied their war banners. The Death Knights of Acherus have learned to control the Undead and it is even said the mages are researching ways to undo time itself." - Legacy of the Masters

Therefore, I'm inclined to say that game mechanics are taken IC except when they are specifically stated to be non-canon. For example, I treat the death knight raise dead ability as IC (meaning necromancers can resurrect people back to the living, not just to undeath, something I've incorporated in my RP), and have always treated priests as being able to use both shadow and Light (something confirmed with Anduin in MoP). Therefore, I see druids and other such classes as being able to heal the undead, because mechanically they can.

There is also this comment, "Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group." (Ask CDev 1). The way it is written is from a mechanical standpoint. Forsaken tanks, in groups with priest and paladins. Which indicates to me, that the devs consider our groups to be IC. That these instances and raids, are IC. And that therefore, because any group combination is possible, because druids can heal undead mechanically, that druids would therefore be able to heal undead ICly.

Also, we know that canonically, some plants can heal the undead. Yes, plants. Not necromancy, but actual plants, pulled right out of the ground and fed to an undead creature.

"On this farm grows a special type of mushroom known as the mudsnout. Go to the stead and gather mudsnout for Kasha... This mushroom is toxic to living things, but provides a restorative boost to the undead." - Kingslayer Orcus, Quest: Kasha will Fly Again

If a natural growing plant, completely unaffected by necromancy, can regenerate an undead creature's wounds, then I'd say that druidic magic, which manipulates nature, would be capable of it as well.

Last, but not least, Lichborne makes a death knight "mechanically" undead. It makes them susceptible to anti-undead abilities like Turn Evil, it makes them immune to abilities undead are normally immune to, like Sap, Polymorph, Hex, Sleep, Charm, and non-holy Fear, and it makes them able to be healed by Death Coil. It does not make them harmed by Holy healing spells, and it does not make them immune to Nature healing spells. I do not consider this something Blizzard would have just 'happened' to leave out when in all other ways the spell makes death knights mechanically undead. Even when death knight characters are mechanically undead, they are still able to be healed by druids.

Simply put, many sources hint at the possibility. There is not a single source that says druidic magic does not work on them, or even hint at it, to my knowledge. Therefore, I trust the mechanics, rather than people's opinion of what they think it should be (as no one has yet posted a source that says it doesn't work), because everything I have seen from Blizzard says that mechanics are IC unless otherwise stated. If Blizzard outright says it doesn't work, then it won't work, like they have said with Forsaken/DK's being mechanically living and canonically undead and the Language barrier crap. But they have not outright said druidic magic doesn't work on undead. So, I go with the default. And the default is that mechanics are IC, and that therefore it does work.

Well I still think it's a convenient game mechanic introduced in order to not fuck up the game all together from other perspectives then role playing (since lets face it, role playing opportunities and mechanics is not blizzards prio with this game). I mean in Warcraft 3 for one you got the holy light spell on the paladin hero humans has and that damages undead while in world of warcraft you even got forsaken holy priests that the developers remarks "suffers nobly" with a bit of good humor, it indicates to me that it's a convenient game mechanic that doesn't really represent how the forsaken/undead works or was intended to work lore wise.

Considering plants/mushrooms/whatever there's plenty of examples where they absorb different magical energies (Outland fauna is fel infested to a large part for example) and we don't know the history of the mushroom you mention either, it's also toxic for the living meaning it doesn't have actual healing properties for natural beings. I agree however that it's not stated anywhere that it's not possible, I have yet to see any example of it being done by npcs either so it's neutral ground.

Raise ally is a fair point, it proves that you can use dark magic to reunite body and soul in a similar fashion to voodoo from the trolls and whatnot... one might wonder what the cost is tough, being exposed to dark forces always has a price There's no healing spells that affects non undeads save for yourself tough (since according to game mechanics you are a humanoid).

Edit: On the Lichborne ability, the reason why you can still be healed could very well be game mechanics as it's usefulness would be significantly less if you couldn't be healed while using it, especially in pve situations where fear and whatnot apply. It can still be argued to be a convenient mechanic in order not to fuck the one using it up completely for 10 seconds.

Blizzards convenience becomes canon lore.

Game mechanics dictate the game story and fluff.

Belserden / Anivitas wrote:I don't really follow game mechanics when it comes to RP, as most of the mechanics were made for the game to work in dungeons and raids.

Just because certain narrative decisions where made to make game mechanics work, does not mean those narrative decisions are less real. They still matter.

erwtenpeller wrote:Blizzards convenience becomes canon lore.
Game mechanics dictate the game story and fluff.

I subscribe to this school of thought.

Sometimes, it may take a tremendous ammount of effort to make it work, but lore is lore and canon is canon. Light and nature spells heal undead, that's an undeniable fact of this world; the awnser to the question how is not given and up to us to figure out.

Be creative!

Braiden wrote:Well I still think it's a convenient game mechanic introduced in order to not fuck up the game all together from other perspectives then role playing (since lets face it, role playing opportunities and mechanics is not blizzards prio with this game).

Yes, it is convenient. But that's the world we RP in. We RP in a game world, so we have to acknowledge that sometimes the lore will take 'odd' directions because of the necessity of the game environment. If you don't like it, that's fine, but that's how things are. There's things Blizzard does that I really don't like, but it's their world, so I have to deal with it.

I mean in Warcraft 3 for one you got the holy light spell on the paladin hero humans has and that damages undead while in world of warcraft you even got forsaken holy priests that the developers remarks "suffers nobly" with a bit of good humor, it indicates to me that it's a convenient game mechanic that doesn't really represent how the forsaken/undead works or was intended to work lore wise.

There are undead holy priests and death knights using the Light in lore (Muerta, the CHAMPION OF THE LIGHT for the Horde in Krasarang, is an undead holy priestess. And then everyone knows about Sir Zeliek). It is intended, lore-wise. It was originally the case in WC3 or in the WoWRPG that the Light would only harm undead, sure, but in WoW it is now canon that the undead can use the Light and simply find it amazingly painful. It was retconned and therefore has to be accepted.

I personally think that was a good retcon, because it's far more dramatic and awesome if undead can still use the Light when they have enough faith and simply face amazing pain for their trouble. That's much cooler than being incapable of using it no matter how faithful they are. It really fits with the whole high willpower thing the undead have and makes such a character very intriguing.

Edit: On the Lichborne ability, the reason why you can still be healed could very well be game mechanics as it's usefulness would be significantly less if you couldn't be healed while using it, especially in pve situations where fear and whatnot apply. It can still be argued to be a convenient mechanic in order not to fuck the one using it up completely for 10 seconds.

When you mind control or use Control Undead on undead NPCs, you can heal them with both holy magic and druidic magic (if I recall, at least, it's Christmas so I don't have time to go out and double-check). So it's not just Lichborne. The Undead classification allows healing by holy magic and druidic magic, except when otherwise stated (like abilities that do X on living and Y on undead).

Raise ally is a fair point, it proves that you can use dark magic to reunite body and soul in a similar fashion to voodoo from the trolls and whatnot... one might wonder what the cost is tough, being exposed to dark forces always has a price Wink There's no healing spells that affects non undeads save for yourself tough (since according to game mechanics you are a humanoid).

Well, just consider the mechanics. Raise Ally requires quite a bit of runic power. And where do you get runic power? By causing pain and suffering to another being. Thus, for necromancy to reunite body and soul to restore a person to life, requires them to take life from someone/something else first. Which is perfectly fitting.

As for 'no DK healing spells that affect non-undead', Rune Tap used to heal non-undead as well as the player. It was a group-wide healing spell. Also, just because DKs don't have spells that heal people, doesn't mean that shadow magic/necromancy can't. You have to look at all shadow abilities, not just the ones DKs have, and there are plenty of shadow/necromancy abilities that can heal the living.

Paozi/Thelos wrote:I subscribe to this school of thought.

Sometimes, it may take a tremendous ammount of effort to make it work, but lore is lore and canon is canon. Light and nature spells heal undead, that's an undeniable fact of this world; the awnser to the question how is not given and up to us to figure out.

Be creative!

QFE

Drustai wrote:

Braiden wrote:Well I still think it's a convenient game mechanic introduced in order to not fuck up the game all together from other perspectives then role playing (since lets face it, role playing opportunities and mechanics is not blizzards prio with this game).

Yes, it is convenient. But that's the world we RP in. We RP in a game world, so we have to acknowledge that sometimes the lore will take 'odd' directions because of the necessity of the game environment. If you don't like it, that's fine, but that's how things are. There's things Blizzard does that I really don't like, but it's their world, so I have to deal with it.

Well I deal with how people play it out and the quests and whatnot I face in game. I don't mind it but I don't necessarily agree that game mechanics is straight off canon just because players can use them, lets just agree to disagree on that point.

Tough...

Drustai wrote:

Raise ally is a fair point, it proves that you can use dark magic to reunite body and soul in a similar fashion to voodoo from the trolls and whatnot... one might wonder what the cost is tough, being exposed to dark forces always has a price Wink There's no healing spells that affects non undeads save for yourself tough (since according to game mechanics you are a humanoid).

Well, just consider the mechanics. Raise Ally requires quite a bit of runic power. And where do you get runic power? By causing pain and suffering to another being. Thus, for necromancy to reunite body and soul to restore a person to life, requires them to take life from someone/something else first. Which is perfectly fitting.

As for 'no DK healing spells that affect non-undead', Rune Tap used to heal non-undead as well as the player. It was a group-wide healing spell. Also, just because DKs don't have spells that heal people, doesn't mean that shadow magic/necromancy can't. You have to look at all shadow abilities, not just the ones DKs have, and there are plenty of shadow/necromancy abilities that can heal the living.

I was more referring to being resurrected by what is described as dark magic by the tooltip ought to leave some kind of impact on the character just like a soul stone would on one using that as "backup", it also leaves a debuff called "Void-Touched" that implies there's something going on if I remember it correctly. Warlock soul stone has the exact same mechanical effect save for the debuff yet I don't think people would play it out as something you pull out of your pocket to resurrect someone else on a whim with 3 seconds cast time. Also, if we are to consider changes to game mechanics canon then rune tap has been retconned and while necromancy is shadow magic not all shadow magic is necromancy leaving your argument that necromancy can heal other living then the actual user not confirmed by game mechanics or lore. Now I suppose I'm just being an ass arguing my opinion anyway since I don't mind you playing it out that way but I personally wouldn't interpertate it as the nature of necromancy to be very beneficial to anyone but the user and undead in terms of healing, just seems like the lights and natures turf to me.

erwtenpeller wrote:Blizzards convenience becomes canon lore.

Game mechanics dictate the game story and fluff.

Belserden / Anivitas wrote:I don't really follow game mechanics when it comes to RP, as most of the mechanics were made for the game to work in dungeons and raids.

Just because certain narrative decisions where made to make game mechanics work, does not mean those narrative decisions are less real. They still matter.

I quite disagree. For one thing, many, many game mechanics contradict the lore. Consider how many game mechanics were changed from following lore, to contradicting it, for the convenience of game mechanics. If there's a game mechanic that addresses something that has -no- lore background, and the game mechanic solution seems logical, then fair enough.

But how do you explain that Forsaken and Death Knights, for example, are considered humanoid in game mechanics, but undead (and USED to be undead in game mechanics) in lore?

Or why have the Forsaken--via game mechanics--forgotten Common? Or human thugs forgotten Gutterspeak?

If game mechanics were to be taken IC, we would be given sentient drakes to ride as pets, magically replenish all of our health and mana stores with conjured bread, be able to reload and fire a crossbow every couple seconds, fight our minipets against one another in epic (?) 3v3 battles, call mounts and pets out of literally nowhere, as well as having hundreds of abilities that really make no sense whatsoever (ex. FoK spam, can you reconcile game mechanics with that?).

Saying that druidic healing heals undead because in-game mechanics dictate so is kinda nonsensical. It heals undead because if it didn't, undead tanks (forsaken/dks) and druid healers would be useless in a raid setting.

When you look at in-game mechanics, I think it should -only- be looked at in cases where it (a) clearly doesn't contradict with any lore, and (b) makes sense. In this case it -might- make sense with some backup lore (hence this entire thread), but it -would- contradict lore in a sense.

Lore shows that Forsaken and Death Knights react in a different way than normal mortals to Light healing. It only makes sense that nature healing would affect them differently too; the question is how. Saying "it heals them fullstop because game mechanics dictate so" just makes no sense to me. Not saying "druid healing doesn't heal undead," just that "game mechanics" isn't a good reasoning to go by.

If we go by game mechanics, a level 90 crab can one hit a level 40 dinosaur.

Oftentimes in these arguments the opposing position gets blown up untill it is showing to extremely silly consequences in an a byttempt to make the entire position look silly and therefore implausible as a whole.

This, however, does not take into account something called common sense, which prevents this from happening in practise.

That doesn't mean that in theory and the standard is that game mechanics are actual in character truths. You make exceptions when it violates common sense, yes, nobody is going to argue that a level 90 level crab can beat a levle,l 40 dinosaur, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that game mechanics, when they don't royally rape common sense, should be taken as fact.

A rule doesn't mean anything untill it's applied, and it's in the application that common sense comes in.

Hahahaha why respond to that

Vaell wrote:Hahahaha why respond to that

...Because apperantly I'm an idiot, haha xD

This is why I suck so bad at April Fools. My troll detection is much too poor.