Re: Gnome Priests

by **Thelos** Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:00 pm

Amaryl wrote:
But, your argument that just because they have no organised religion, no organised rites etc in the church sense, they cannot be divine casters is flawed.

I already made this concession a while ago.

I am now starting to get the distinct impression that my posts aren't being read very carefully. I have already conceded the fact that you can be a divine caster without being an ordained priest. I don't like it, as is obvious by my understanding for example communion and holy matrimony as forms of divine "Magic" (I am in want of more quotation marks here), but I can't change the general opinion and Blizzard's god-canon.

The question that remains now is whether you can be a priest without being an ordained official of a clergy. This I doubt. Even though priestly magics are based on Faith, there is still an ammount of skill and training involved. As Bloedneus said, divinities in the World of Warcraft are a given. Priests distinguish themselves by their greater Faith and expertise in how to mediate with the Divine. If we define a priest merely in terms of how capable they are in divine magic or their faith, then we barely have any class left to work with.

My question wasn't whether a person can be a divine caster without organised religion, but whether you can be a priest without organised religion. The former is indisputably true, the latter is up to debate.

The important distinction you made, Amaryl, is that your character is not your class. This is something I do not necessarily agree with. So, to speak in your own words, "This is where the misgivings in your argument stems from". You role-play a race and a class and the class you choose is not arbitrary. You could feasibly role-play a character that is not a priest using the priest class, but this ought to be the exception and not the norm: futhermore, these characters relinquish the rights to call themselves a "priest".

I think I will settle on this:

Gnomes don't have priests.

They have medics and divine casters, but not priests.

If you play the priest class on a gnome, then you do not play a priest, but rather someting else.

Given how I like to use classes in role-play and consider them to be In Character, this is a source of frustration for me. But so be it.

Spoiler:

by **Muzjhath** Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:36 pm

So Thelos, if a Gnome Priest is a priest within the dwarven congregation inside of Ironforge. Not in any gnome places but the drwaven. Still not a priest? (Yes, I am being a dick right now).

by **Amaryl** Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Paozi/Thelos wrote:
The important distinction you made, Amaryl, is that your character is not your class. This is something I do not necessarily agree with. So, to speak in your own words, "This is where the misgivings in your argument stems from". You role-play a race and a class and the class you choose is not arbitrary. You could feasibly role-play a character that is not a priest using the priest class, but this ought to be the exception and not the norm: furthermore, these characters relinquish the rights to call themselves a "priest".

I'd say that the class only represents the abilities a person has, and that the name of said class doesn't necessarily represents the word it got its name from. Especially when we're talking about race balancing acts. That said, i'm not really feeling for turning this into a debate about blizzard writing, since as you know, I find it poor as fuck.

by **Thelos** Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:40 pm

Muzjhath wrote:So Thelos, if a Gnome Priest is a priest within the dwarven congregation inside of Ironforge. Not in any gnome places but the drwaven. Still not a priest? (Yes, I am being a dick right now).

I don't really think I need to awnser that, do I? Wink

Anyhow. Looking back at this thread, we've seen several ways of interpating the religious life in Wow. I look back at a fruitful and enjoyable discussion and I do think I've made my own position a little clearer for myself! Thanks a ton, folks.

by **Dréfurion** Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:44 pm

ELUNE AKBAR.

I felt like contributing to religious debate.

by **Coppersocket** Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:49 pm

Shit, Thelos enjoyed himself on the forums. People, quick. Spit in his face and call him things he hates. We can't have people ENJOY things they read here.

by **Muzjhath** Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:55 pm

Amaryl wrote:
Paozi/Thelos wrote:
The important distinction you made, Amaryl, is that your character is not your class. This is something I do not necessarily agree with. So, to speak in your own words, "This is where the misgivings in your argument stems from". You role-play a race and a class and the class you choose is not arbitrary. You could feasibly role-play a character that is not a priest using the priest class, but this ought to be the exception and not the norm: furthermore, these characters relinquish the rights to call themselves a "priest".

I'd say that the class only represents the abilities a person has, and that the name of said class doesn't necessarily represents the word it got its name from. Especially when we're talking about race balancing acts. That said, i'm not really feeling for turning this into a debate about blizzard writing, since as you know, I find it poor as fuck.

I refrained from mentioning the class thing as well. Since I've never fully taken it as "I RP a this!" But rather "my character has these skills". For example my Blood Elf was a priest turned warrior/paladin, not a warrior blessed in the holy light. But since that's a discussion for a different thread... That'll not change anyones opinion I was silent.

by **Lini** Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:24 pm

So...the problem is that Gnome priests are called priests, right? The problem goes away when one realizes that gameplay-wise Blizz doesn't bother with race specific class names.
Gnome Medics are just as much priests as Tauren Sunwalkers are paladins.
The default skillset of priests might be full of names referencing religious sermons, rituals and sacraments but one shouldn't assume that the "priests" of every single race calls them that way.

by **Magaskawee/Anaei** Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:33 am

Paozi/Thelos wrote:
I think I will settle on this:

Gnomes don't have priests.

They have medics and divine casters, but not priests.

If you play the priest class on a gnome, then you do not play a priest, but rather someting else.

Given how I like to use classes in role-play and consider them to be In Character, this is a source of frustration for me. But so be it.

I have to disagree there, I play a Gnomish Priestess, and she's exactly that, a priestess. Granted perhaps she has a 'unique snowflake' way of coming to that calling, but it comes from the stereotype of Gnomish curiosity. While most are rational and put their 'faith', so to call it in the titans, knowing where they came from, my Gnome puts her faith in the light because she sees it as the future.

How the light is wielded has been made clear many times, and has been said various times in this thread, to believe you can wield it, allows you to do so.

So I do not think you can simply write off Gnomish priests as 'non-existent', it's like saying that anyone who decides to attempt to play that class combination seriously, and with effort is wasting their time.

by **Coppersocket** Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:13 am

A Gnome Priest will not dedicate her/himself to the Light in the same depth a Human will however, Anaei. They don't -care- that much. Things are trivial unless they are progessing the technology in one way or another.

Sure, a priestess, there's probably some, but I can't see they'd get much out of it in terms of basically anything that would actually benefit to their curiosity for a long period of time as the Light worship is, to say the least, extremely stagnant. It's not progressing anywhere, it's not changing, it's just... There. Unchanged.
The motivation to delve deeply into it just doesn't exist in their racial structure.

by **Thelos** Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:30 am

Magaskawee/Anaei wrote:

So I do not think you can simply write off Gnomish priests as 'non-existent', it's like saying that anyone who decides to attempt to play that class combination seriously, and with effort is wasting their time.

The only way in which I can see a gnome priestess work if she either joins and recieved training by the Church of the Holy Light or by the Titan Devotees.

There are, however, a myriad of ways you can be a priest without being a priest on your priest, as discussed in this thread. You can be a divine caster, or a medic, a surgeon, etcetera.

This also seems to be the de facto reality in-game and in role-player. The most two most notable gnomish "priests" I can think of aren't really priests in the exact way as I just decribed: "Doc" Cogspin and Chief Surgeon Gashweld are both surgeons, rather than priests. Most gnome priest role-players if not all of them have shown a similar approach. They see themselves as medics or surgeons in the first place and anything else second.

That's not to say that you can't be a gnomish priest, though. Heck, you can be a furgbolg priest in the World of Warcraft: it doesn't seem very much like the Light to turn anyone down by race. Indeed, we've seen Saurok and Murlocs with their Oracles that might even be exactly that.

So no, gnomish priests aren't non-existant. However, I don't think I've ever seen one in the lore and I haven't seen many of them inn character, though perhaps one day I will!

by **Kil'drakor** Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:27 am

On the subject of goblin priests, I have always imagined them as worshippers of Gold. Money is the chief motivator of any goblin, after all. The invisible hand of the market, the driving force of goblinkind! It always seemed like a funny twist to me, since Gold is one letter shy of that lovely deity simply referred to as God.

Thank Gold!
Gold-dammit!

by **Thelos** Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:09 am

You know what?

I think I'll just try it for myself.

Yeah, I've got a level 85 priest that I'm not using, and 15 euros to spare. I can just explore gnome priesthood myself in practice and stop harping on about the theory.

Who knows? It could be fun. Geiger-style "Aura-meters" in which to measure "Darkness-quotient", wherein if their quotient is too high they are send to the "Automated Confession Booth". A more than healthy interest in anatomy, with a little brain surgery and study in mind control thrown in with good measure.

WELCOME TO THE AUTOMATED CONFESSION BOOTH
PLEASE INSERT SIN TO RECIEVE ABSOLUTION

Hey this could be fun! I'm getting excited.

I'm off to the drawing board!

---

Anyhow. I've taken some distance from this debate and given it some thought and I think I can localize the root of my frustration. The truth of it is that, while role-playing my priest, I've always been disheartened by the fact the majority of the community sees priests as nothing more or less than healers. People come to the Cathedral of Light when they are wounded or when there is a medical emergency somewhere. Oftentimes it felt more like a hospital than a House of Faith. People just want you to wave around your hands and mend their wounds so they can get on with their daily adventurous routine. They don't come to church to pray, take confession, partake in communion, or any of that -- heavens no. Most characters I interact with would laugh such a suggestion off. It becomes increasingly hard to role-play the herder of the flock when there's not really any flock whatsoever -- just a bunch of pigs that bloat in your direction on occasion when their hooves get sore.

Now, to work on that automatic confession both...

by **Muzjhath** Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:28 am

Another area where game mechanics messes up what could be good roleplay!
Instant healing!

<.<
>.>

I'll go away now instead of going more OT!

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:40 am

Coppersocket wrote:A Gnome Priest will not dedicate her/himself to the Light in the same depth a Human will however, Anaei. They don't -care- that much. Things are trivial unless they are progessing the technology in one way or another.

Unless they -do- care as much. Or even more!

In the end, it's up to the player.

Paozi/Thelos wrote:I think I'll just try it for myself.

Ha! Excellent!

by **Thelos** Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:59 am

This means I'll probably literally end up making Faith-powered Light phasers, though.

"Automatic Smiting Rifle".

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:05 pm

...Which is awesome?

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:07 pm

Bloedneus wrote: Set phasers to JUDGE!

by **Melnerag** Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:26 pm

Invent flying, jet-powered, sin-seeking hammer-drones that fly around and and seek out sinners, then shout "HAMMER TIME!" and whack them until they enter their repenance.

by **Thelos** Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:36 pm

Coppersocket wrote:
Sure, a priestess, there's probably some, but I can't see they'd get much out of it in terms of basically anything that would actually benefit to their curiosity for a long period of time as the Light worship is, to say the least, extremely stagnant. It's not progressing anywhere, it's not changing, it's just... There. Unchanged.

Melnerag wrote:Invent flying, jet-powered, sin-seeking hammer-drones that fly around and and seek out sinners, then shout "HAMMER TIME!" and whack them until they enter their repenance.

Suffice to say that with all the brainstorming in this thread, I think we have proven Coppersocket wrong in this point!

There's plenty of space for Gnomish ingenuity in the field of theology.

by **Melnerag** Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:39 pm

...and so the field of APPLIED THEOLOGY was born.

Please, make your gnome priest a 'Professor of Applied Theology' Very Happy

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:57 pm

I have a great idea.

Roll a character that's not a know it all, for once.

by **Sorayah** Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:54 pm

Paozi/Thelos wrote:
The truth of it is that, while role-playing my priest, I've always been disheartened by the fact the majority of the community sees priests as nothing more or less than healers. People come to the Cathedral of Light when they are wounded or when there is a medical emergency somewhere. Oftentimes it felt more like a hospital than a House of Faith. People just want you to wave around your hands and mend their wounds so they can get on with their daily adventurous routine. They don't come to church to pray, take confession, partake in communion, or any of that -- heavens no. Most characters I interact with would laugh such a suggestion off. It becomes increasingly hard to role-play the herder of the flock when there's not really any flock whatsoever -- just a bunch of pigs that bloat in your direction on occasion when their hooves get sore.

Interesting! For what it's worth, in the rare occasions I have done random rp on my priestess in the Temple of the Moon, it hasn't been like this at all generally. I have prayed together with random people, taken confessions, and all that. Maybe Kalimdor is different in that regard Smile

by **Shaelyssa** Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:15 pm

Vangrel wrote:I have a great idea.

Roll a character that's not a know it all, for once.

rofl hahah

by **Ralegh** Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:27 pm

YES! Make a gnome!
Ill hire you!
(and join the channel GnomeRP)

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