Gnome Priests

Let's talk about gnome* priests.
(*Most of what will be said in this thread about Gnome priests is also applicable to Goblin priests. However, since I chiefly role-play on the Alliance, I will be focusing on the Gnomes, since they're the problem I am struggling with during my gameplay.)

Gnome priests have confused and frustrated me ever since their introduction in Catacalysm. But as a disclaimer I want to say that this post is not an attack on players role-playing a Gnomish priest. Rather, it is a plea for an explenation that helps me even even understand Gnomish priests in the slightest because as it stands they're the single biggest enigma for me in the entirety of the World of Warcraft. Not the mystery of the Old Gods, nor the origin of the Titans, but Gnomish Priests are the one thing that I can't wrap my head around in this game. Let me explain.

The online Oxford dictionary defines Priest thusly:

Oxford online dictionary wrote:
noun
1. an ordained minister of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Church, authorized to perform certain rites and administer certain sacraments:
the priest celebrated mass at a small altar off the north transept
a person who performs religious ceremonies and duties in a non-Christian religion:
the plays were performed within the sacred area of Dionysus, in the presence of his priest

So far so good. Obviously we don't have any Christianity of WoW, but we've got a myriad of other religions and churches. Human prests are an ordainer minister of the Church of the Holy Light. Sae with Night Elves for the Sisterhood of Elune; Trolls are somehow appointed by or to the Loa; Forsaken have their own Shadow-church and Blood Elves both have their twisted “fallen” priests and paladins in the order of the Blood Knights and, more recently, Naaruvadin priests similar to the Draenei.

However, priests in the World of Warcraft go beyond that. In WoW, the power of ordained rites and sacraments has a tangible, physical force: everybody has seen the Light's healing powers at work. Rather than a cooky loud-mouthed preacher screaming “Oh Lord” and smacking the procession in the face during communion, priests in WoW call down a visual force that is physically seen to operate in our world. The blessings of our deities have a real presence. Let's take a closer look at the specifics of priesthood in WoW.

World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game, p70 wrote:Priests practice a complex, organized form of spirituality built around moral philosophy, the worship of a particular deity (such as Elune) in some cases, and/or idol worship, rather than around the reverence of the elements that shamans practice, or the close divine connection with animals and the wilderness that druids maintain. Priests serve not only as influential religious figures in their respective societies, but also as powerful practitioners of divine magic, which they use to heal and protect, or harm and weaken.

This passage has always been oblique and confusing to me. What exactly is meant with “but also” here? Does this imply that divine magic is explicitly seperate from the more traditional notion of priesthood? Can you be a priest with being only one of these two, but not the other; for example, can you be properly called a priest if you hold communion and lead procession, but are unable to cast any divine magic; and can you be called a priest if you can't do the former, but are capable in the latter?

I think you can already see where I am going with this. To me, these two, let's call one “Priesthood” to honor the Oxford Dictionary and the other “Divine Caster” to acknowledge the fantasy element, are inseparable from one another. In my mind, you can't be a divine caster without also being a priest. Whether you can be a priest without being a divine caster is a question I find more difficult to answer; my instinct is to say “no” and to proclaim priesthood to be the most important aspect of being a priest in the World of Warcraft, which to be frank sounds almost tautological.

My main argument for this is that, if you treat these two aspects of priesthood as distinct, there no longer is any relevant difference between Divine Casters and...casters. If you can be a Divine Caster without abiding to any sort of moral philosophy or religion it loses all aspects that make the priest unique from the mage. If you treat the Divine as just another school of magic, you might as well call yourself a mage with Divine magic as your specialization. This is, I feel, how most Gnome priests approach their priesthood. They, much like magi, see their blessing as a sort of craft they can apply to manipulate and change the world in certain ways. What, if not for spirituality, ethics and religion, is the difference between smiting someone with holy fire and incinerating someone with a fireball? Nothing except some superficial differences in appearance.

This “manipulation of reality by the Will” is how historically the distinction between faith and magic was made. Magic was the manipulation of demons (read: natural laws) that affected the world, whereas faith is a prayer to the Divine to bequeath upon the faithful a certain boon. Faith versus Intellect. It is an old and important distinction, yet it is one which Gnome priests (or rather, role-players) seem to fail to make.

The most frustrating part about this whole ordeal to me is the fact that Blizzard actually supports this interpretation of Gnomish priests. Gnomish priest trainers are “surgeons” or “medics”; gnomes have begun “studying the Light” because they deem it an “powerful medical tool”. Role-players rightfully adopt this in their role-play. My problem with this should be obvious by now: medics and surgeons, like magi, are not priests. All encounters my priests have had with gnome priests have always been about how gnomes do not acknowledge or even ridicule the priesthood aspect of the priest. They don't even seem to understand what the Divine means. It is a concept that does not exist in their culture. The Light is just another tool to them, like a spanner.

Blizzard seems to simultaneously support and deny my claim that you need “priesthood” in order to be a Divine Caster. They deny it in allowing Gnomish priests to channel the Light without any sort of Faith or Church. They confirm it trough the way they flavor and conceptualize their abilities. Take a look at some abilities in the holy tree:

Priest abilites wrote:
[Hymn of Hope]
[Prayer of Mending]
[Leap of Faith]
[Penance]
[Rapture]
[Divine Aegis]
[Evangelism]
[Grace]
[Prayer of Healing]
[Archangel]
[Atonement]
[Holy Word: Chastise]
[Spirit of Redemption]
[Serendipity]
[Prayer of Healing]
[Confession]
[Absolution]

These are all abilities that directly refer to prayers, rites and sacraments. These are spells the divine caster casts. How can you possibly understand something as bizarre as a priest without Faith praying or offering absolution? It's completely absurd. How can you recite a prayer if you don't believe in the sanctity of that what you pray to? How can you sing the glory of something you treat like a tool? The Priest without Faith is a perfumist that can't smell; a colorblind color-mixer; a paraplegic warrior without weapons. Why do we, as a community, find this kind of inconsistency and fallaciousness acceptable? Imagine if we gave Warlocks the same treatment. “Yes I call Fel spells, but don't worry, it's got absolutely nothing to do with Demons whatsoever”. Or even better. “Yes, I'm a druid and I call upon the forces of nature by using this neat device I tinkered by shredding trees. Check it out: I call it the 'treant-o-matic'.” “Yes, I'm a shaman – but what's this crazy talk about elements talking? Don't be absurd, fire doesn't talk, you just chuck it around in a ball”. “Yes, I'm a mage, but what's this magic and mana you keep talking about? I pray to the God of Fire to use my mind as a conduit to smite Its enemies”.

I'm sorry but it just seems ludicrous to me. Completely bonkers. A priest without faith and religion is like an archer without a bow or an arrow. It just doesn't make any sense to me and frankly I am curious how those who role-play a gnome priest make any sense of it.

To me this is symptomatic of someting we would consider very bad in role-play: the seperation of a class from its spells and abilities. Healing and Divine Magic is seen seperately from the priest class; from an OOC point of view, Blizzard figured that Gnomes could use a healing class, and they looked better in priestly gowns than in shamanistic plate. But really the choice for a priest seems to be completely arbitrary for gnomes. Even Shamans, in a way in which Goblins practise shamanism, seem to be to be a better fit.

My apologies for the rant. This is something that has been bothering me for a while and I needed to get it out of my system.

The only logical argument I can make is that because the gnomes believe they can use the Light so strongly, they can. So even though they are treating it as a tool, it's not because of any study or knowledge, it's because they have such a confidence in their ability to use it that it works. Which is the same rationale I have for Blood Knights and their whole "stealing the Light" shit. A gnome or BE can do the exact same hand waving and incantation reading as any other gnome or BE, but whether it succeeds or fails completely depends on whether or not they actually believe it will work. No amount of "understanding" allows them to use it (you can't understand the divine, or it wouldn't be divine), only whether or not they believe that they can use it. So it's still a form of 'faith'.

It's still rather silly, but at least it maintains the 'faith' aspect, even if it's more an unintended, subconscious faith. I would much rather have it limited to those who actually followed the teachings, though, as very few divine caster players actually do.

The most frustrating part about this is that it makes the actually Faithful and priestly priests look like chumps. If all the rituals and sacraments are just superficial hokey superstitions, why even bother with any of it? It reduces a whole powerful insitution to nothing but a mockery of reason.
(Oh and please don't bring any real-life religious comparisons and jokes in to this. We're talking about religion in the confines of World of Warcraft, not in the real world).

You have to excuse me, but I did not read through this entire wall of text, but reading the bottom part was enough to get a sum of the rest.

It's mostly the faulty lore of the Light, I'd say. There's so little known about WHO can preform holy light. From what we are aware, all you need to do is be high enough in spirit (directly related to the stats too)
But I can understand your concern, it can seem as illogical, and to some degree, it is.
Gnomes are not strong 'anti-belief' people tho. They're curious. The reason why there are Gnome priests are because they wanted to learn more about it and decided to try it out. Some are more pius than others, those are also stronger priests than the others.

And honestly, I do very much agree on the Shaman thing. Gnome Shamans would be a lot more logical, not to mention they're a lot closer to the Dwarves than they are the Humans, so taking up Shamanism in pure curiosity, as it doesn't require them to believe in some silly greater power or such.

But then again, I don't think too much into it, as I personally built Copper up as a Light believer, who eventually turned to Shadow.
She was never a strong holy warrior, nor is she a strong shadow warrior. Her ability to use spells like that are pathetic at best.

Paozi/Thelos wrote: In my mind, you can't be a divine caster without also being a priest.

Here's your problem.


Edit, in your argument that is, and that is the part you need to explore further.

Coppersocket wrote:
Gnomes are not strong 'anti-belief' people tho. They're curious. The reason why there are Gnome priests are because they wanted to learn more about it and decided to try it out. Some are more pius than others, those are also stronger priests than the others.

I wish I could agree with you; and to an extend, the lore certainly urges me to. But the role-playing reality is different. Most gnomish priests I have come in contact with show zero interest for any religious matters whatsoever. Some even go so far as mocking it as irrational. When discussing the merits of confession earlier, the dialogue basicly boiled down to "Will this help me cast better healing spells? No? Well, then I'm not interested."

Most if not all gnomish priests I have come in contact with treat the Light as just another school of magic and ignore the religious aspect completely. They view it purely trough an instrumental lense.

I have nothing against gnomish priests by definition as long as they actually act like a priest and practise priestly practises. They don't have to be tiny-draenei in their piety but at the very least they can acknowledge whatever deity they "research" as being something Divine to worship, rather than something worldly to master

Amaryl wrote:

Paozi/Thelos wrote: In my mind, you can't be a divine caster without also being a priest.

Here's your problem.

Edit, in your argument that is, and that is the part you need to explore further.

I have attempted to make this plausible by trying to show that it leads to absurd consequences. I have no other way of defending this claim, other than the analysis of the concept of "priest" and a reduction to the absurd.

Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.

A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

Unfortunately it is so. So all the sacraments, rituals and doctrines are elaborate tools of convincing oneself that one is capable (or worthy in certain systems of belief) of wielding the Light. This also means that some systems of belief can be superior to others. So, in a way, the reason why Light cannot be used as a spanner by humans/draenei/dwarves/elves is exactly because they see it as a Divine Power which is irreconcilable conceptually with using Light as a tool. Of course what gnomes actually do believe about the Light is left in the dark.

...oh and I think if anybody realized the truth about Divine Magic they would lose all ability to wield the Light. Since that knowledge moves divine spellcasting from Faith (willpower) to Knowledge (intellect) and there is no going back except amnesia.

Blizzard wrote:wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it.

I refuse to psychologize religion like that. That's bullshit, Blizzard, and if refusing to accept this oh-so-canonical source makes me a loller than so be it; but I refuse to accept the consequences of that quote.

About priest-divine caster:

I gave it a lot of thought when making the Chapter, since Lectors are explicitly stated to be 'priests' without having any requirement of being divine casters.

You clearly need divine powers to heal the sick or bless the congregation, but you don't need them to preach or lecture. So one can be a preacher, a lecturer, a theologian and even perform weddings with 0 divine power.

Similarly, you can attain divine power and never conduct any of the rituals (Paladins!), except perhaps personal prayer. However, since the Light has no ears a clever gnome might conclude that it is not needed to speak the prayer for it to have any effect. And since the fact that you word the prayer in your mind is actually just your linguistic center at work, translating whatever is happennening deeper in your mind into words...and the Light has no need for words...well, then you don't need to consciously pray at all. The Light knows your need!

Paozi/Thelos wrote:
I refuse to psychologize religion like that. That's bullshit, Blizzard, and if refusing to accept this oh-so-canonical source makes me a loller than so be it; but I refuse to accept the consequences of that quote.

I hate that as well. I have to do a lot of handwaving to make it work for me. As said, I find the "If you realize that this is how the Light works, you lose all ability to use the Light" a very useful tool. Since it means that whatever smartass discovers this principle will NEVER be able to prove it to others, or even to himself.

"Hey guys, I figured the Light is just a school of magic! All you have to do is believe that you can use it!"
"Well, go ahead and use it!"
*Strains, but fails to cast anything since he just turned Faith into Knowledge*
"Haha. See? You pissed the Light off! Go attone for your smartass, smug arrogance, fool!"
*whimper* "O Light, forgive me for ever doubting Your divinity!"

"Unlike humans, dwarves and draenei, gnomes are not able to follow the Light devoutly enough to become paladins. They may still wield holy powers as priests, but seem to consider its healing abilities more like medicine than magic."

"They are able to become priests, but focus more on the practical healing-abilities of the divine rather than to embrace it as a path of sorcery. In fact, the gnomes practice holy magic as a form of first aid. While priests among the other races may play the roles of clerics and prophets, gnome priests refer to themselves as doctors, medics and surgeons"
- Wowpedia

Melnerag wrote:
You clearly need divine powers to heal the sick or bless the congregation, but you don't need them to preach or lecture. So one can be a preacher, a lecturer, a theologian and even perform weddings with 0 divine power.

This is the kind of absurd arbitrariness that the game mechanics have burdened us with. You need diivne power to heal the sick, but not to unite two souls in everlasting holy matrimony? That's ridiculous. Just because there's a in-game spell for one and not for the other, we're to assume that they're distinct in this way? Why would they be?

I always saw the Light as a visualization of sacramental rites. The whole distinction between "rituals" on the one hand and "divine magic" should not exist in the first place.

That is the core with my frustration of the priest and paladin class in WoW.

Edit: And yes, I am saying that marrying people should be a form of Divine Magic.

Coppersocket wrote:"Unlike humans, dwarves and draenei, gnomes are not able to follow the Light devoutly enough to become paladins. They may still wield holy powers as priests, but seem to consider its healing abilities more like medicine than magic."

"They are able to become priests, but focus more on the practical healing-abilities of the divine rather than to embrace it as a path of sorcery. In fact, the gnomes practice holy magic as a form of first aid. While priests among the other races may play the roles of clerics and prophets, gnome priests refer to themselves as doctors, medics and surgeons"
- Wowpedia

Source?

If you want HTML links
http://www.wowpedia.org/Gnomes
http://www.wowpedia.org/Horde_%26_Alliance_magic#Gnomes

Coppersocket wrote:If you want HTML links
http://www.wowpedia.org/Gnomes
http://www.wowpedia.org/Horde_%26_Alliance_magic#Gnomes

No, I want a source. When a WoWpedia article says things about lore without naming a source, I consider what it says to be fanon and not not canon. Like those hokey WoW Insider "Know Your Lore" articles.

Well, Blizzard has stated fuckall about the lore behind Gnomes in general.
That's as good information as you're gonna get.
Besides, it's not Fan-made, if you look at the Gnome priests NPCs they are always medics or nurses of some kind. I can't recally any Gnome NPCs that were actually Pius priests praising the holy light left and right, and if there is- they're extremely rare.

I -think- that information comes from a forum-post in which Blizzard explained rationale behind new race-class combos, if my memory doesn't fail me. But I can't find it since I forgot the name of the thread.

"Gnome priests have been added in the expansion, Cataclysm, in tradition of the already existing medics. Gnome priests have been often considered mages or arcanists that tinkered with their spells to mend the wounded and sick. Their high intelligence allows them bind injuries, enshroud allies with magical barriers and shields, or even twist the shadows to destroy a foe's mind. " - Wowhead

There's a bit too many fingers pointing in one direction to be anything else than this explanation, honestly.

Melnerag wrote:However, since the Light has no ears a clever gnome might conclude that it is not needed to speak the prayer for it to have any effect. And since the fact that you word the prayer in your mind is actually just your linguistic center at work, translating whatever is happennening deeper in your mind into words...and the Light has no need for words...well, then you don't need to consciously pray at all. The Light knows your need!

This is exactly how I see Gnomish priests at work (or most of them). Investigation and analysis of things we might call "facts" in order to logically use something to assist you. Whether that be harnessing the power of lightning (electricity and generators) or the power of The Light.

Ok, this is all a "to me and in my view"... but here goes:

Words, rituals, masses, crosses, bells, books and candles... they're fetishes really. They are given power by us (which we might then use as a focus, but the power comes from/through our using these things, from belief in their power/assistance). The Light (or other magic sources, I'm not sure Grufftoof wields the Light...) is in us. We just need to tap into it. We're all made of stars, after all (to completely misquote someone!).

Does that make sense? The Light is inside a Gnome, as it is inside many things (all, really? even the darkest hearts?). A Gnome may just have made a different journey of experience/thought to using the Light. Because it's how they believe, it's how the world is to their logical cog-filled little minds.

As for the wowpedia link, I seem to remember that being a response to a Lore Q&A. Might want to doublecheck one of those.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/09/12/know-your-lore-gnome-priests-and-the-failure-of-the-flesh/
Worth reading.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2992/serious-lore-problems-with-cataclysm

ps. I fucking love Gnomes

I am tempted to discredit forum posts and off-hand twitter comments made by Blizzard employees completely. Taking them to be the word of God and trying to divine consistency and Law in them is the road to madness. I doubt whether they've gone trough the same amount of scrutiny as we treat them with now.

Maybe I'm just not smart enough to see something logical that you all clearly percieve on how Gnomish priests are being portrayed, but to me, it's nonsensical and bordering on offensive.

I'm just not seeing it. Priests without religion, no matter how you spin it, is just a conceptual impossibility. Maybe I should start thinking of Gnomish Priests in seculair terms and just refute that they use the Light at all. That would safe me a lot of anguish.

Gnomes researching the cosmos and then casting Light spells and treating it as nothing but "Healing Magic" to me is like Goblins leveling entire forests to produce explosions and calling it druidism.

"What? It's nature magic, isn't it? It comes from nature."

Blizzard wrote:So hang on, the Holdout Medics, gnome priests in Gnomeregan who were there before you started playing the game even... they make no sense lore wise? :-) The North Fleet Medics... also gnome priests... happily healing away in Howling Fjord... they make no sense lore wise? Let's see how playable gnome priests are introduced to us in the game, but let's not pretend they've been stuck in as some kind of afterthought.

"They were already in the game, therefore, are fine lorewise".

Screw you, Blizzard. Just...

Screw you.

I'm unhappy now.

The in-game class "Priest" isn't necessarily the actual thing with a Gnome, maybe. Maybe it is, like Copper says above, "Medic". But I know some people have massive difficulties/issues with making differing distinctions between the in-game class and the character played... however this one seems to fit?

If you're "anguished" or "offended"... I'd take a step back. We're obviously seeing things differently, that is true. But doesn't make any of your interest or work in the lore and The Light any less relevant or interesting.

The druidoblin analogy is a bit weak though! A Druid Goblin would grow and tend a forest, encouraging quick and healthy growth and great and noble trees... in order to fell it all and sell it to a timbermill. As quickly as possible, of course. Time is money after all.

You worry too much Paozibear!

You worry too much.

I can't see troll priests wielding the Light lore-wise either. So instead I view it as something specifically trolly that has a similar effect to the Light.

So, short of making an entirely new gnome only class for healing it makes sense they just gave them priests. View them as mages who focus on healing and forget the splashy effects of their spells.
Any gnome who RP's as a priest can be explained by anything being possible. I'm sure there are devout gnomes around, even if they're unusual.

Gruftoof and I may in fact be the same person.

Troll druids aren't druids in the same aspect a Elf druid is a druid either. Troll Druids are Trolls that take the aspect of the Loa.
Equally so, Troll Hunters can most likely more be related to Troll Headhunters rather than the traditional Hunter.