Mists of Pandaria

Amaryl wrote:Please, Story-telling has improved by 400% since Vanilla.

Since WOTLK, through Cata and pandaland, story-telling has been at an all time high, for blizzard.

The problem though is this: Not every story part is interesting for everybody.
Pandaland is god-damned rich with story. just most people aren't interrested in that part.

Wow ultimately is High-fantasy with a wink. It doesn't take itself to seriously, and its archetypical and bordering on cliché.
that's not my cup of tea, it was in 2004, but it isn't anymore.

but to claim that story-telling hasn't improved, and is getting worse? that's just plain wrong. blizzard keeps experimenting with new ways to tell the story. some fail, some work, but they keep adding new shit.

the problem thraska has, is that wow lore doesn't have any consistency with its own rule-set. making it seem; unrealistic. not because it is unrealistic, but because it doesn't adhere to its own rules, in favour of: this is cool, lets do that!

Which is an argument that has its merits, but i think; ultimately fails. mostly because wow is high fantasy, and tongue in cheek. And not something "we"(players) wish it to be.

ultimately, we're all playing a game, and want it to be something else.

Even if Blizzard has invented new ways to tell a story through the use of vehicles, phasing, cinematics etc, that's merely a technical development. How they've actually fared in this art however is a totally different subject.

It's subjective in the end, sure, but are you going to tell me that WotLK had a better way of story with its casual approach to Northrend with one million hubs that contradicted the fact that we're essentially in the homeland of the Scourge? Along with the buffoon of a villain that was Arthas and a joke of a cinematic that was Wrathgate? Despite said technical improvements, it failed in the sense that I wasn't convinced enough that the Scourge was a threat or that there was any tension in the story. (exception might be Grizzly Hills)

And then on the other end, you have the Ahn'Qiraj part in Vanilla. The war effort, Silithus being a zone full of elites, the world event all helped the lore and the atmosphere that the story implied, even if that gate opening was a laggy piece of shit and even if it didn't have phasing. And guess what, it was BRAND NEW LORE at the time. And I, at least, thought they were far more intimidating than any antagonists in WoW prior.

Which is ultimately the difference between newer WoW and vanilla. In the new wow, story kinda combats with the gameplay and there is a clear separation between the two. In vanilla, it was more intertwined with the game itself, even if it meant getting a group together for ages, running to the instance, wiping and trying to figure out what you were doing.

Why was Ahn'Qiraj good and Pandaria bad?

I think Zaraj has a very good point aroung Ahn'Qiraj.
The whole server, from level 1 too level 60, could get inolved in the war effort. Which certainly made it easier to feel imerged in that "shit, something is happening!"

Muzjhath wrote:I think Zaraj has a very good point aroung Ahn'Qiraj.
The whole server, from level 1 too level 60, could get inolved in the war effort. Which certainly made it easier to feel imerged in that "shit, something is happening!"

If by "getting involved in the war effort" you mean "anonymously depositing trade goods without ever seeing a return on them while the big-shot hardcore raiding guilds got all the glory", then yes, everyody could get involved.

I'll take this new LFR system that actually allows everyone of all levels of play to see the content over a hierarchial system that has the best content only reserved for the Chosen Few. Heck, the first bits of the AQ storyline were literally only available to those Chosen Few Hardcore Raiders. Sure it might be 'less epic' or whatever, but I never cared for the kind of epic that exclusivity and difficulty brings with it. Yeah, something might gain an aura of mystery and intrigue if you only hear about it in whispers and have to work for months to actually see, but nowadays everybody just watches the video of the kills from the PTR anyway before the content is even released on live servers.

I should know, because I was in one of those middle-of-the-road mediocre guilds the real raiders used as to grind gear so they could join the "proper" guilds. We always got the shaft. Sure, when the gates opened we were graciously allowed to run rampant for an hour trying to snipe as many elites as we could, but that was about it. The heroic dragonslaying and world-saving was left up to about 0.01% of the server population.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the lore and instances of AQ, but the whole "Campaign of the Shifting Sands" bullshit came down to me grinding cloth and minerals like a total chump without ever seeing anything in return for it, apart from a "Good job, son! Now step aside and let the men handle the real work!" from those oh-so-heroic Chosen Few Hardcore Raiders.

Scarab Lord my butt.

Zaraj wrote:
Even if Blizzard has invented new ways to tell a story through the use of vehicles, phasing, cinematics etc, that's merely a technical development. How they've actually fared in this art however is a totally different subject.

It's subjective in the end, sure, but are you going to tell me that WotLK had a better way of story with its casual approach to Northrend with one million hubs that contradicted the fact that we're essentially in the homeland of the Scourge? Along with the buffoon of a villain that was Arthas and a joke of a cinematic that was Wrathgate? Despite said technical improvements, it failed in the sense that I wasn't convinced enough that the Scourge was a threat or that there was any tension in the story. (exception might be Grizzly Hills)

How they actually fared in this art, isn't really a discussion. Blizzard simply made a concious choice to move story-telling from Info-dumps + Raids to a clear story-line with a clear and present narrative, and in that they simply succeeded.

The discussion ultimately is; Do I enjoy this narrative? Which is the subjective part, because due to blizzard's decision, you had their specific narrative or nothing. The mechanics, story-telling, and vibe is ultimately a roller-coaster, and as a player you just have to hold on and enjoy the ride, or participate in endless side-events.

You are the hero, and make no mistake about it, that's your role, and that's what you're going to play. (You could make the case that you're the side-kick to the real hero, but that's just because of the narrative that's been crafted)

And then on the other end, you have the Ahn'Qiraj part in Vanilla. The war effort, Silithus being a zone full of elites, the world event all helped the lore and the atmosphere that the story implied, even if that gate opening was a laggy piece of shit and even if it didn't have phasing. And guess what, it was BRAND NEW LORE at the time. And I, at least, thought they were far more intimidating than any antagonists in WoW prior.

Which is ultimately the difference between newer WoW and vanilla. In the new wow, story kinda combats with the gameplay and there is a clear separation between the two. In vanilla, it was more intertwined with the game itself, even if it meant getting a group together for ages, running to the instance, wiping and trying to figure out what you were doing.

This is an interesting point you raise; Mechanics as Story.

The only real shift that blizzard made in this regard isn't in the not putting story into the mechanics, but to focus by making the story available to everyone.
If you look at the shield-wall dailies, its basically the same thing as the war-effort.

I couldn't witness the creation of the staff, because destiny did it at 2am in an effort to reduce lag, and still it was over before my game was loaded. Same with the opening. the lag fest was too huge. I remember destiny actively encouraging people not to come to silithus at the opening because of zeee lag. I don't think that was compelling, but that's taste. (I found the naxxramas invasion much more compelling, but that's more because i was more invested in the scourge story-line that came from WC3)

Ultimately where the Mechanics as Story parts become bland for us old-timers isn't the fact that its not there anymore. Its more about the fact that it isn't 2005.

The mechanics really don't do anything for us, because its just grind. While in vanilla we still actually enjoyed playing the game, because it was "relatively" New. This isn't a bad thing, you can't keep killing boars for 10 million times and still find it interresting. Atleast I can't. but in 2005? Skinner had its claws deep in my brain.

A new daily hub reminds me of quel'danas, or even light's hope. and i'm thinking how i enjoyed it more back then, not because it was necessarily better, but because it didn't have the feeling of: been there, done that. a hundred times.

this is an old game, and we're old dogs, our views are coloured with nostalgia.

I'm not saying the story delivering were better. Or rewards.

Just saying that the full server COULD get involved in it.

While the 5.1 and 5.2 of MoP were only for those of max level and from what I guess weren't noticed if you were say, in the Barrens, nor could you help it if you were.

As for LFR. I've always been of the opinion that you should have to put SOME effort into seeing content. A balance somewhere around wrath ideally.
Only have 30 minutes a day for an MMO? Though shit, maybe you should rethink what you play, especially with how much it costs.

*has never been in a propper raiding guild, still did raids in both expansions where he was active in PvE at max level* *also turned in lots of leather for the war effort*

Edit:
As for Amaryll with Mechanics as story.

This is a game, and imo. Mechanics should always be the first thought of way to explain the story, no matter the game. Something almost all games fail miserably at.

Threat Levels is an interessting topic in itself.

Let's go back in time.

MoP
Thunder King is safe. He just sits on his island-fortress, and I wonder 'why bother? If he wants to rule an Island, let him!' I am sure he is a Big Bad Tyrant, but I didn't -see- him do anything particularly evil in the world to justify invading his palace and trampling his flower-beds. He is safe -and- I don't particularly feel for kicking his ass.

Sha are threatening. Holy shit. Just like that, BAM! Possessed. Of course dispatching the Greater Sha trivially kinda negates that. Sha are much better as the Evil Presence than killable monsters. Love them anyway.

Cataclysm

Deathwing. No. He is safe as a pony. Nuking forests, sparing Stormwind. Now if Deathwing flew over hubs and cities and caused death and destruction and elementals raising from the ground....

Garrosh&Sylvanas. They are kicking Alliance ass, and they TOOK MY SOUTHSHORE AND ANDORHAL! Rhhhhhh. They are going DOWN. They are dangerous, and I care!

Wrath of the Lich King
Scourge? More like a litter of cute undead puppies.

TBC
I am still not sure what the x-pac was about. But Illidan was an okay villain. I still don't understand why he had to die. He wants to be King of Outland? Why not? Its not like he came to Stormwind and painted smileys on our statues. He wants that dead rock - he can have it.

Vanilla
Onyxia. I loved her. Human leveling experience was built to foreshadow to her.

Muzjhath wrote:
Edit:
As for Amaryll with Mechanics as story.

This is a game, and imo. Mechanics should always be the first thought of way to explain the story, no matter the game. Something almost all games fail miserably at.

I agree 100%.

but after 9 years, its kinda hard for us to care about the same old, same old. its just another grind.

and blizzard really stepped up its game, giving you dailies that progresses the story, giving you events that progresses the story etc. Its certainly better than: give 20k cloth.

I don't care an iota about it. because I'm not a fan of high-fantasy, roses and dandies anymore. and i haven't been since a long time. I liked wotlk mostly because that was what i wanted out of wow, and every since wotlk story has really been nothing i cared about.

its like a series, where every new season there's a new big-bad! and he's even badder then what we had before! and that's not a matter of story-telling that I find compelling. But you can't argue, that blizzard hasn't done a great job in telling that story, sure they had their stumbles, but its pretty stream-lined.

Oh, never dissing the Daily quests. For story progression they are a fantastic tool.
I'm dissing the "It only affects this one small part of the world. THe rest goes on as if nothing happened".

Meln have a few great examples.

I also watched the Cata cinematic again two days ago. And it bloody killed everything for me (Again). Why the fuck would Deathwing land on the gates of SW. Without first burning the entire fucking city down?

I don't disagree, but the difference with vanilla was what?


Edit: I mean for every south-shore and onyxia, you have a deathwing and ragnaros. for every naxxramas invasion you have some kobolds you need to take candles from.

Vanilla sucked balls. The grind was so incredibly dull I never made it past level 40.

Amaryl wrote:some kobolds you need to take candles from.

I love those guys. They could have been so much more.



Kobolts are totally the titans. Or something.

I could say my main gripe with wow, is that everything stays the same. But that is the nature of MMO's, and its not a nature that has changed over time.

there's the urge for new content, and make that content "matter" while not dismissing the "old world" but still you have to have progression somewhere.

Its really nothing you or I can do about it, because that's basically what you should be expecting when getting into an MMO.

Which leaves the question: How much do you care about the new story-line. I mean the game won't make a 180 mechanics wise. it will tweak, adapt, improve, but that's all nuts and bolts of a game you're already deeply familiar with.

so do I care what's going on now?

(for me the answer is no, and has been for a long time)

I am simply arguing, that blizzard isn't doing really "much" wrong in the way they're approaching new stuff. Mechanically, narrative wise, craft wise, I believe they've improved significantly.

And that crafting the argument that ultimately, blizzard is ruining this game, and that before everything was better, isn't actually the case. Our (the players) interrest changes. Our expectation about story, don't line up with blizzard, and mechanically we're wrung out, so we stop caring.

And that is Okay.

There's nothing wrong with that.

heck I applaud growth in people, its great! but I feel we should partly say: You know; It's me, I've grown, and moved on. Thanks for the great time.

Instead of: Blizzard ruined the game with their panda's!

Amaryl wrote:I could say my main gripe with wow, is that everything stays the same. But that is the nature of MMO's, and its not a nature that has changed over time.

there's the urge for new content, and make that content "matter" while not dismissing the "old world" but still you have to have progression somewhere.

This is what made me initially like Kataclysm a lot. The remade stuff, the added classes, the updated lore in the old world. That felt pretty rad, and still does. It's just that the expansion failed to deliver anything else of interest.

..Oh! And transmog. Transmog was good.

The only thing I'm saying is. For full server invovlement over a longer period of time. The War effort was very good.
The Naxx invasion (or the use of it in the pree-wrath rebound) was also a fun time.
Stuff happening all over, fight it!

So, I'm saying that in some of the old events. Blizzard included more than the "max leveled".

As for "Vanilla was such a grind" It was grinder than today. I never reached max level, since I only made a level 39 twink to play with a friend.
But bloody hell, it didn't get grindy until you stopped leveling -_-
*tired of people who never MMOed before WoW*

Muzjhath wrote:As for "Vanilla was such a grind" It was grinder than today. I never reached max level, since I only made a level 39 twink to play with a friend.
But bloody hell, it didn't get grindy until you stopped leveling -_-
*tired of people who never MMOed before WoW*

This.

Vanilla grind was a walk in a park on a sunny day compared to the grind in, say, EverQuest.

Lineage2, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Final Fantasy XI ...

... That includes grinding gear from raids and instances tbh. Just that most of those other's didn't have artificial timecontstraints.

Then I'll stay the fuck away from those games.

Ah old school grinding; for the masochist rat in a box.

Jup, let me just say as much as i enjoyed it at the time; i'm glad games moved away from that. xD

While I don't miss the grind it used to take to level up, as I would -never- have the time to level at that speed now days.

I do have to say it felt so much more rewarding.

Honestly I'd like to see a lot more scenarios, for players from 1-90 with story progression instead of phasing the world around you.

I like phasing. It allows the world to progress! It's just a shame we can't control it for cooperative purposes.

I don't particularly enjoy MMOs.

I enjoy Warcraft.

I'd abandon ship in a heartbeat if Warcraft 4 were released.

Drustai wrote:

Muzjhath wrote:As for "Vanilla was such a grind" It was grinder than today. I never reached max level, since I only made a level 39 twink to play with a friend.
But bloody hell, it didn't get grindy until you stopped leveling -_-
*tired of people who never MMOed before WoW*

This.

Vanilla grind was a walk in a park on a sunny day compared to the grind in, say, EverQuest.

But it was still a grind. I remember getting pretty bored of it by 45. I didn't have the patience to sit and play a game for the entire day.

Vanilla was the most anti-social point WoW has been at. You want to level, then get all the gear? Fuck social lives, WoW is now your life. Vanilla is what created the stigma of WoW.

Muzjhath wrote:
As for LFR. I've always been of the opinion that you should have to put SOME effort into seeing content. A balance somewhere around wrath ideally.
Only have 30 minutes a day for an MMO? Though shit, maybe you should rethink what you play, especially with how much it costs.

I strongly disagree with this.

Take a normal game for example - lets just say Halo (a basic example). You can experience all the story content even if you're bad at the game. You've paid as much as everyone else, this is fair. You want to put in the effort for legendary (not even comparable to the effort needed for Vanilla WoW) then you can simply flick the difficulty switch. That's the way it is now in WoW and it is a far better system. Everyone should be entitled to see all the content but difficulty settings should be there for the players who have all the time in the world to kill. Heroic raiding is still difficult, do that if you want to show off your raiding skills.

Shit, Vaell. We're agreeing on something again. This better not become a habit!

Grindy or no, I do miss the sense of adventuring that Vanilla, and tBC to a degree, had. Sure, most of the questing itself was drab as hell, but going out and treading off the beaten path to find hidden quests was great; the Centaur Pariah or the Dwarven brewer in westfall for example, or that turtle in Tanaris that just wanted to go home. Being sent out to that small isle off the coast of the Barrens as a lowbie nelf to learn berserker stance (god that was terrifying, I ran into a Burning Dawn gathering), the various warlock class quests that had me going all over - the long journey to get the Dreadsteed and the challenges of getting your infernal and doomguard (both useless, but eh). Tirion's redemption and Darrowshire, bringing Mistmantle to justice or cornering Onyxia, the monstrously long Razelikh chain and bouncing across Kalimdor to help out Linken. Hell, even tBC's attunement quests.
It's probably telling that my favorite WoW instance to date is Old-BRD, with its plethora of hidden quests and the only proper dungeon-crawl the game's ever mannaged (Dire Maul came close). But of course, it was 'too long and annoying' for just about everyone.

They had me running around the world like a raving dog trying to get its bone, and I loved it. Still do, actually. But then with Wrath it suddenly became all 'hub here, hub there' and the adventuring was lost in favor of ticking items off of your grocery list. Of course, it made for a tighter narrative and that was great, but I still feel it came at a price.

Vanilla was the most anti-social point WoW has been at. You want to level, then get all the gear? Fuck social lives, WoW is now your life. Vanilla is what created the stigma of WoW.

Not denying it, but that's an ugly can of worms you're opening.