Re: Stormwind Council reformation - New positions and information

by **Kittrina** Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:11 pm

Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Farelin/Dijie wrote:
Braiden wrote:That's what we hope, we just need fresh members with the will and dedication to help make it happen.

At a quick glance, it looks like there are only two positions open, from your original post. With all due respect, might it be time to consider replacing some of the old faces with new faces?

And making it an actual Democracy and not an inward junta ;o

People can apply for posts already occupied (been said many times in this thread)
The only person on that list who's been a council member over about a year is Geldar so it's hardly 'old faces' or an old-timers club
All of those members applied through the same way anyone can, and most did trial periods and so forth before being approved/appointed. Most of them are people's main characters.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:13 pm

Kittrina wrote:
Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Farelin/Dijie wrote:
Braiden wrote:That's what we hope, we just need fresh members with the will and dedication to help make it happen.

At a quick glance, it looks like there are only two positions open, from your original post. With all due respect, might it be time to consider replacing some of the old faces with new faces?

And making it an actual Democracy and not an inward junta ;o

People can apply for posts already occupied (been said many times in this thread)
The only person on that list who's been a council member over about a year is Geldar so it's hardly 'old faces' or an old-timers club
All of those members applied through the same way anyone can, and most did trial periods and so forth before being approved/appointed. Most of them are people's main characters.

Voted for by current members depending on their IC perspective, not the populace at large of whom they claim to represent. Thats not democracy, nor will it ever be.

by **Drustai** Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:20 pm

Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Kittrina wrote:
Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Farelin/Dijie wrote:
Braiden wrote:That's what we hope, we just need fresh members with the will and dedication to help make it happen.

At a quick glance, it looks like there are only two positions open, from your original post. With all due respect, might it be time to consider replacing some of the old faces with new faces?

And making it an actual Democracy and not an inward junta ;o

People can apply for posts already occupied (been said many times in this thread)
The only person on that list who's been a council member over about a year is Geldar so it's hardly 'old faces' or an old-timers club
All of those members applied through the same way anyone can, and most did trial periods and so forth before being approved/appointed. Most of them are people's main characters.

Voted for by current members depending on their IC perspective, not the populace at large of whom they claim to represent. Thats not democracy, nor will it ever be.

Stormwind isn't a democracy.

by **Grufftoof** Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:20 pm

Stormwind (and by extrapolation any Council working for/with the Crown) isn't a democracy (In Character/In Game), far from it. A militarised kingdom with theocratic leanings? Maybe? I'm fuzzy on the power play between The Church and the King and the military.

However, as I see this, opening up the Council and encouraging new blood and new chances for RP is far more democratic (OOC) than it would/could otherwise be.

Isn't more RP and such something we should welcome and encourage? Rather than saying it's 'not enough' and bleating on about the same old shit that always seems to follow any mention of the Council?

But that's my two pence. And I aint an Alliance RPer let alone a Council member.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:28 pm

Grufftoof wrote:Stormwind (and by extrapolation any Council working for/with the Crown) isn't a democracy (In Character/In Game), far from it. A militarised kingdom with theocratic leanings? Maybe? I'm fuzzy on the power play between The Church and the King and the military.

However, as I see this, opening up the Council and encouraging new blood and new chances for RP is far more democratic (OOC) than it would/could otherwise be.

Isn't more RP and such something we should welcome and encourage? Rather than saying it's 'not enough' and bleating on about the same old shit that always seems to follow any mention of the Council?

But that's my two pence. And I aint an Alliance RPer let alone a Council member.

I was just trying to jab at the fact that proper elections may draw out the desired effect.

oh, and while i remember... http://www.defiasrp.com/t1891-the-stormwind-council-faq could do with some major updates. according to that the council is strictly 'no nobles', of which it seems to have plenty of now.

Just my 2 cents.

by **Amaryl** Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:47 pm

Council democracy has been tried before, Seik, back in vanilla and again in tbc you know that Razz

. I'm not saying because it dramatically failed in the past it will again, but just like the council overthrowns, it ended up with 2 weeks of activity, followed by waning interrest by the most vocal protestors and it eventually "died" until the old crew took it up again. and completed the circle.

I know its part of the circular nature of DB SW RP, and DB RPers in general, or perhaps life in general, to take it up again. but I doubt it will have any lasting impact or will ultimately create something better, than what we have now.

on another point

Personally, I wonder how many events do you need the council to make?

I mean, a weekly event, that's been going on for years and years, is an achievement in and of itself on good ol' Tuesday. It almost feels from the comments, that the council meeting is so ingrained in our collective schedule that we even stopped considering it an event in and of itself. Which to me is a fact that can only be lauded as an impressive achievement.

more council organised events in my opinion aren't that needed. Though the ability to roleplay with the council outside the council meeting has been lacklustre in several periods of its existence. Which can be a real pain in the ass for ongoing plots you want the council involved with. Though I'm not wanting to diss people's playstyles, far from it. Since my personal philosophy is always: RL goes first. It is simply a statement.

I've never been the biggest council approver, or its opposer. I've had my problems with the council, as well as its good moments.

The biggest problem with creating events, is creating authority. which is the biggest council hate around, and rightfully so. Certainly when speaking from a defence/justice point of view, lording over guilds and organisations, is the pita that defines council opposition, and creating more events, than the general Tuesday News Night and Tuesday Soap Opera night rolled in one, will exacerbate this situation.

From both an OOC-RP Standpoint and an IC standpoint, I personally find it slightly silly that the position of Grand-magistrate and the position of Minister of justice is in the hands of the same Character. It kills of an entire avenue of RP, legislative vs judicial crap. As well as making corruption more easier and Personally, that is not a trend I would have made.

On the Other hand. Braiden puts in the effort. compared to Omanos whom you just had to pray and hope to see as a hardly played alt of a hardly playing person.

And if I had to make a choice, I'd take the Active person over the inactive person anyday, regardless of how many illogical and "shady" annotation that could be hinged on such a decision. Simply because wanting and liking to RP something makes people RP it, and that's worth far more than no RP because people aren't active.

That said, another problem the council has had for a long while in my opinion is the fact that the "Cool" Positions have always been filled. active or not.

War, Defense, Justice. Compared to Culture/trade/health.

And I'm glad to see a few good changes implemented in this update. (I find reformation far to big a word for this change Razz

)

The implementation of Assistants. Though bloody call it something else, like Secretary or something damn you!

The merger of some positions.

Though i'm rather sad that the split in defense/war has been over-turned. Since the minister of defense position was the only position I saw that was truely went for, over the past two years. as it was the only "Cool" position that was generally put open. Due to Geldar being minister of War for the better of 5 years if not more.

Sure you have assistants now, and inactive people get removed when new applicants arrive. But in my opinion merging the most sought after position with the most stable position is a big mistake. Since this is the world of WARcraft and most characters are militarily aligned. even though the split in war/defence did seem slightly weird.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:58 pm

Council democracy has been tried before, Seik, back in vanilla and again in tbc you know that.

I know, but i cant help but believe D:

I would if anything suggest that some ministers take charge of their respective 'areas' with the same effort, investment and diligence as braiden has.

cool as the minister of war/defence positions may be... they never actually organise either of the previously mentioned, Stormwind has no standing united army, Stormwind ...the strongest kingdom in the alliance... is oddly the weakest by server lore standards.

by **Drustai** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:09 pm

@Amaryl: Do to the assistant positions, the actual number of people for Defense/War remains the same as it was. Two. So even though they've been merged, there's still the possibility to have two people for the positions.

Krogon Devilstep wrote:cool as the minister of war/defence positions may be... they never actually organise either of the previously mentioned, Stormwind has no standing united army, Stormwind ...the strongest kingdom in the alliance... is oddly the weakest by server lore standards.

With luck, Meln and I will be able to fix that. We just need to finish getting it all set up.

by **Amaryl** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:10 pm

Well, the concern is more towards people wanting to apply to the council because it fits their character, and thus might be inclined to make effort. and the pool of potential players is far bigger in the war department than in the Culture department.

And as such discussion a la:

Random interrested minister that Rps a soldier: All the positions are already taken, I can't even join the council if I wanted to!

Random council member: The positions of Culture and health and chairperson are open you can apply!

Which is a discussion that's been had plenty of times Don't touch the underlying issue.

Oh!

Oh!

What happened to the minister of -Faith-?

Edit Drustai:

Instead of 4, or having two ministers is still a different Allure than having 1 minister and one assistant

by **Rmuffn** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:11 pm

The Minister can still organize things, he doesn't need to have a guild. He can just contact the guilds roleplaying soldiers and organize an Alliance campaign, that the current holder of the position doesn't seem to do so has nothing to do with the server lore, Seiken.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:13 pm

Erahn wrote:The Minister can still organize things, he doesn't need to have a guild. He can just contact the guilds roleplaying soldiers and organize an Alliance campaign, that the current holder of the position doesn't seem to do so has nothing to do with the server lore, Seiken.

Campaigns create server history, which in turn create server lore.

Nobody creates campaigns, No history occurs, No lore is made.

Suspect

by Guest Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:16 pm

That's not the only source of history and lore though

by **Drustai** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:17 pm

Amaryl wrote:What happened to the minister of -Faith-?

Seems to be under Internal Affairs now.

by **Amaryl** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:18 pm

Buckholme in charge of faith..

Oh lord.

by **Drustai** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:18 pm

Amaryl wrote:Buckholme in charge of faith..

Oh lord.

Djego should apply to be his assistant.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:20 pm

Perturbo wrote:That's not the only source of history and lore though

ofc not!

but it is 'a' source.

My point being, Initiatives like Melnerags's and drustai's could do much to bolster ministerial position like the defence/war one. They could include stormwind forces in their training and campaigns and give the minister(s) something to focus their creative energies into helping.

by **Drustai** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:24 pm

Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Perturbo wrote:That's not the only source of history and lore though

ofc not! but it is 'a' source.

My point being, Initiatives like Melnerags's and drustai's could do much to bolster ministerial position like the defence/war one. They could include stormwind forces in their training and campaigns and give the minister(s) something to focus their creative energies into helping.

I'm actually intending on coordinating with Geldar IC soon as I finish getting my commodore to Pandaria levels. Want to try and give the defense ministry something to work with!

by **Krogon Devilstep** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:25 pm

Drustai wrote:
Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Perturbo wrote:That's not the only source of history and lore though

ofc not! but it is 'a' source.

My point being, Initiatives like Melnerags's and drustai's could do much to bolster ministerial position like the defence/war one. They could include stormwind forces in their training and campaigns and give the minister(s) something to focus their creative energies into helping.

I'm actually intending on coordinating with Geldar IC soon as I finish getting my commodore to Pandaria levels. Want to try and give the defense ministry something to work with!

das is gewd. When you want hordies to fight give us a shout and i'l nudge you toward a few folks.

by **Lexgrad** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:32 pm

Amaryl wrote:Buckholme in charge of faith..

Oh lord.

*Writes some Antlion laws*

by **Drustai** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Drustai wrote:
Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Perturbo wrote:That's not the only source of history and lore though

ofc not! but it is 'a' source.

My point being, Initiatives like Melnerags's and drustai's could do much to bolster ministerial position like the defence/war one. They could include stormwind forces in their training and campaigns and give the minister(s) something to focus their creative energies into helping.

I'm actually intending on coordinating with Geldar IC soon as I finish getting my commodore to Pandaria levels. Want to try and give the defense ministry something to work with!

das is gewd. When you want hordies to fight give us a shout and i'l nudge you toward a few folks.

Already got my dog (Skarain) working on that. Smile

by **Krogon Devilstep** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:38 pm

Drustai wrote:
Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Drustai wrote:
Krogon Devilstep wrote:
Perturbo wrote:That's not the only source of history and lore though

ofc not! but it is 'a' source.

My point being, Initiatives like Melnerags's and drustai's could do much to bolster ministerial position like the defence/war one. They could include stormwind forces in their training and campaigns and give the minister(s) something to focus their creative energies into helping.

I'm actually intending on coordinating with Geldar IC soon as I finish getting my commodore to Pandaria levels. Want to try and give the defense ministry something to work with!

das is gewd. When you want hordies to fight give us a shout and i'l nudge you toward a few folks.

Already got my dog (Skarain) working on that.

AND if you need anyone to play lowly naval officers do ask, i always have a hankering for maritime RP.

by **Drustai** Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:54 pm

You could always make a char for Meln's guild. Smile

by **Skarain** Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:48 pm

As my master (Drustai) said, i am indeed working with organizing a RP-PvP Campaign into the future, namely 5.1.

To give a sneak-peak, it'll be a resource/territory war set into Jade Forest. Pandaria is rich of resources, and Jade is rather easy to access and establish supply routes into (least in comparison to Kun-Lai). I'll keep the PvP system simple, aim to offer a good communication network between guilds that extends over cross-faction.

As an OOC organizer rather than IC, my main purpose is to keep communication going between groups OOC and handle drama if such would emerge. IC Decision making and leading the forces will be on shoulders of IC commanders like Dru's Commodore, Geldar, Gilran and others.

I'll try to get the Campaign posts up in near future. Smile

by **Geldar** Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:12 pm

Yes, we discussed the other night with Skarain the prospect for the campaign and I am looking forward to helping out with whatever possible. However, to elaborate a little on the Defense/War merging and the events topic that was raised before.

For Defense, we will most likely scrap the business with the guards (Ergo what the previous Ministers did of providing oversight and etc, which in my opinion should be left to the guilds dealing with that sort of RP), as so far we have not had a single Minister/Guard Guild that had a relationship without some form of conflict and there is no point to continue if it does or will not work. So what will be the focus of the Defense ministry is internal and external threats of military and non-military kind (Ergo cults that pose a direct threat to the national security.)

Now for the event part, which is a bit more complicated. Back around an year and a half ago, two years tops I used to host weekly RP PvP events with the SGE and other elements operating in area of the Stormwind Kingdom, border patrols, ambushes, skirmishes, you name it. Those stopped due to Shrogan leaving the game, sadly. The larger events to an extent I stopped taking part of due to the astronomical amounts of drama involved in them and at a point it was so much that it turned to be the prime focus instead of the actual RP-PvP. Sadly though most of the drama was caused because of the system that was used. Which was a giant clusterfuck of ganking and whomever endured, won.

And well, as random RP started to become less and less and more focused on guilds and small groups in distant parts of the world the RP-PvP also suffered, quite some of our RP-PvP events happened as a thing of the moment, we get IC word that a Gurubashi patrol is attacking Duskwood or Westfall and we instantly organize to go and fight them, now I doubt you can see that happen again. Hell, even gankers and OOCers were taken ICly as attacking Horde and dealt with accordingly. Was quite fun to RP out something that was not even meant to be focused in RP, like an attack from the Realmwalkers on some RP hub that we repell and even though they were 100% OOCly focused on PvP we still RPed it out and it was good and fun.

And well to answer Seiken's point of Stormwind not having a standing army that is also the strongest Kingdom lorewise you would need to actually have people to form that, which are currently lacking as the community isn't that big or that active as previous years and there is not really much wiggle room to work in as freely as before. But with some luck that can be changed as Drustai mentioned previously and one can only hope for that.

by **Ixirar** Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:37 pm

One of my (albeit misplaced) ambitions when I tried ressurecting the Tinker's Court was that all the Gearholders were charged with organising atleast 1 event related to their seat every month. Something each individual gearholder was supposed to do on their own outside of the Tinker's Court meetings. The Court meetings were then supposed to be a medium through which to keep the Gnome RP Community (I assumed there was one) up to date on what was going on while keeping the real meat of the RP to those events.

We didn't have the playerbase when it was gnome RP, and I dunno if Stormwind does. I figured I'd throw it out there to see if it's useful anyways.

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