Re: The vent thread

[Raelan]

Gorillas and most primates/monkeys also have canines and most of them are herbivores. They use their canines (have you seen a gorilla's canines? they're massive) to intimidate and scare other animals or gorillas or whatever

Gorillas descend from omnivores aswell, so my point remains.

[Muzjhath]

If we take Orangutans. It happens occationally that they'll catch small birds and eat them.

[Lyniath]

I just find vegetarians the most annoying people in the world when they think they're much better than omni/carnivores because of it. It's the epitomy of douchiness

[Ave/Sariella]

I really dislike people telling me i make a bad decision for eating meat, most meat i eat comes from animals i know have lived well and has been killed in a humane manner, because it comes from people i and my family know personally.

It's natural to eat both and is by no means an absurd arguement.
It's absurd to say it's cruel to kill what we are made to kill.

[corleth]

I eat meat for one reason. It tastes great. Unless some idiot ruins it then I bloody won't touch it.
I won't stop eating meat because it's "wrong" "bad" or some other silly reason just because "THOSE POOR ANIMALS!"
Yes, I prefeer fairtrade on my coffee, I prefeer ecological meat/greens when I can afford it. But can't pick and choose most of the time costs too much. I also prefeer near produced if I can get it. BUt just because I can't get it doesn't mean I'll stop eating it.

I've never claimed not to be pretentious, so no offence taken, but its not 'full of shit' - especially considering you did not address any of my argument with any form of rebuttal other than 'but it tastes gooooood', which is a flimsy one; considering that meat in and of itself does not taste great. That is why it has to be cooked and smothered with condiments and sauces before anybody will considering putting it near their mouth.

[corleth]

It's natural to eat both and is by no means an absurd arguement.
It's absurd to say it's cruel to kill what we are made to kill.

It's cruel to cause any creature unnecessary harm and killing animals to eat meat is not necessary, so it is cruel.

[Shaelyssa]

Gorillas descend from omnivores aswell, so my point remains.

What point? You just posted a picture with a caption which I answered :p

It's natural to eat both and is by no means an absurd arguement.

But it is an absurd argument, I think ... I could then use that logic to justify anything like, it is natural for me to be naked so I'm going to run around the street nude. Or it is natural for me to settle my disputes through murder cause that's what my ancestors and animals do

edit: Also I still think it's cruel to kill something for its meat and justify it by saying "it was killed in a humane way and lived a happy life". Obviously it's a big improvement but it's still cruel, albeit less cruel than battery cages and all that but still. "Free range" eggs and all that are only marginally better than the battery cage alternative (same with all "free range" produce) it's not as if they're running around an open field or something. It's still pretty cruel

It's hard though to determine where to draw the line for what level of standard of life is cruel for an animal and what isn't. We don't know how they perceive things, and it's not like we can ask it "are you happy mr pig?"

[Lyniath]

Vegetables suck. And Meat would suck if it was all you ate.
The spice of life is variety, peeps. Stop being boring

[Muzjhath]

Tbh, most times I have a fillet of beef I generally sneak a small scrap to eat when raw <.<
Maybe not the most healthy practice but yea...

[Ave/Sariella]

Gorillas descend from omnivores aswell, so my point remains.

What point? You just posted a picture with a caption which I answered :p

It's natural to eat both and is by no means an absurd arguement.

But it is an absurd argument, I think ... I could then use that logic to justify anything like, it is natural for me to be naked so I'm going to run around the street nude. Or it is natural for me to settle my disputes through murder cause that's what my ancestors and animals do

Not really, we're not supposed to kill our own pack, i'm in for torturing murderers though, depending on the case.

And it's not cruel to kill an animal to survive at all what so ever, if you see it as such, it's just as cruel to tear a plant out of the earth to eat it, guess what, plants can die if you ruin the roots, you kill it.

[Grufftoof]

I see nothing wrong in eating the flesh of an animal.

You're a bad person and you should feel bad.

... some interesting points ...

It's very easy to forget that what you're eating is actually a cow. I know it sounds silly, but it's true ... your meat does come packaged in white polystyrene (blue? err?) and burgers do just appear naturally. Chickens indeed do not grow on trees though (thankfully ... can you imagine going for a walk in the park and having a ripe chicken just fall off one of the branches and onto your head D: eep)

I don't feel bad. And I don't (usually) eat beef or chicken. Both because I don't really like them as meat, but also because they're usually difficult to be certain of the meat origin etc, its treatment, and yes, because beef farming on a global scale is a fucknut mess. I am well aware of that.

I do think there is something VERY wrong with the disassociation of meat as a product from the animal it came from. Hence my comments about the way it's packaged and marketed and sold. People should absolutely know where their food (all food) comes from.

I'll leave you with an example of how fucked things are. Two friends of mine, both hindu, were aghast when I told them (they really, really didn't know) that burgers were beef (the ones they were eating were anyway...).

Because they didn't match the two. To them the two things - a cow, and a burger - were not linked.

That's wrong.

But I will still choose to eat meat. Because I am not simple. Nor do I eat meat daily. Or eat shit. My choices.

[Drustai]

And please don't try to argue that "what is natural must be right". It's such an absurd and ridiculous argument. How do you even define what is natural and what isn't? There's no such thing as "naturality"

I never said 'what is natural must be right'. Being trans, that's hardly an argument I could make without being tremendously hypocritical.

What I said was, that it is fact that that is how nature designed us. If you wish to distance yourself from that, then fine. More power to you. I've even considered going vegetarian myself before. But vegetarians trying to condemn everyone who doesn't follow their beliefs would be like me saying that everyone who doesn't change their sex is incapable of making an informed decision because they only have 'one side of the story'. It would be ludicrous.

Being a vegetarian is a personal choice. It's not an ethical consideration that society is morally obligated to embrace. There is nothing wrong with people eating according to their natural role as omnivores, they are not evil because they kill and devour "poor defenseless animals". Vegetarianism doesn't give you a moral high ground that you can wave in other people's faces and use to make yourself feel better. It's a dietary choice, nothing more.

[Shaelyssa]

Not really, we're not supposed to kill our own pack, i'm in for torturing murderers though, depending on the case.

And it's not cruel to kill an animal to survive at all what so ever, if you see it as such, it's just as cruel to tear a plant out of the earth to eat it, guess what, plants can die if you ruin the roots, you kill it.

You don't need to eat meat to survive though. Maybe 3000 years ago your ancestors did, but not anymore.

I've never claimed not to be pretentious, so no offence taken, but its not 'full of shit' - especially considering you did not address any of my argument with any form of rebuttal other than 'but it tastes gooooood', which is a flimsy one; considering that meat in and of itself does not taste great. That is why it has to be cooked and smothered with condiments and sauces before anybody will considering putting it near their mouth.

You'd be surprised at the amount of people who actually prefer eating raw meat o_o one of my friends only has his steak "blue" (basically raw) and a couple of the Austrlian/New Zealanders at my school are the same.

[corleth]

And it's not cruel to kill an animal to survive at all what so ever, if you see it as such, it's just as cruel to tear a plant out of the earth to eat it, guess what, plants can die if you ruin the roots, you kill it.

lol how?? Plants have no nervous systems and are not sentient like animals are.

The thing is you don't kill an animal 'to survive' - would everyone die if we stopped eating meat? Of course not. It is no longer a requirement of our survival. We are capable of living perfectly fine with vegetarian/vegan diets that do not cause suffering to other living, -sentient- creatures.

Lol, I had this debate with Ave just a few weeks back. My life is going around in circles.

[Lyniath]

This thread is filled to the brim with pretentiousness...
Let people eat whatever the hell they want and stop judging them. Saying that it's cruel to eat animals doesn't make you better - what, if you let them run wild they'd be happy and free and jolly? No, a bigger wilder animal would kill them, or they'd breed to aggressively and we'd have to shoot them for population control. Ofc intensive farming and shoving chickens in cages is cruel, and I'd rather the chicken was free or whatever, but at the end of the day...
It's a chicken. It's going to get eaten by -something-
So all of you shut up and eat your dinner.

Cor, you reek of "olol im so much better than you and so unarguably right herp derp"

[Rasonal Dranger]

I hate it when people tell me that selling palestinian babies' body organs is wrong.

[Raelan]

The thing is you don't kill an animal 'to survive' - would everyone die if we stopped eating meat? Of course not. It is no longer a requirement of our survival. We are capable of living perfectly fine with vegetarian/vegan diets that do not cause suffering to other living, -sentient- creatures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10598926

If you insist on nitpicking.

[corleth]

Let people eat whatever the hell they want and stop judging them. Saying that it's cruel to eat animals doesn't make you better - what, if you let them run wild they'd be happy and free and jolly? No, a bigger wilder animal would kill them, or they'd breed to aggressively and we'd have to shoot them for population control. Ofc intensive farming and shoving chickens in cages is cruel, and I'd rather the chicken was free or whatever, but at the end of the day...
It's a chicken. It's going to get eaten by -something-

It's just a debate, I don't usually go out of my way to convince people of vegetarianism at all but considering that we were on the topic, I thought I'd join in and make some points that most people go day to day without considering known. This is the first time I've even mentioned my vegetarianism on this forum, its not like i'm some kind of radical bean-eater.

But regarding the bold, that would be fine. As those animals can make no choice between their actions, they are still engaged in a 'fight for survival'. We are not.

Cor, you reek of "olol im so much better than you and so unarguably right herp derp"

Good ad hominem, great post, wonderful contributor.

[Lyniath]

I don't care, pretentious people who use their own little quirks like veganism really piss me off. I don't need more people giving fucking stupid reasons for showing their superiority when they just want to inflate their own ego.

[Shaelyssa]

What I said was, that it is fact that that is how nature designed us. If you wish to distance yourself from that, then fine. More power to you. I've even considered going vegetarian myself before. But vegetarians trying to condemn everyone who doesn't follow their beliefs would be like me saying that everyone who doesn't change their sex is incapable of making an informed decision because they only have 'one side of the story'. It would be ludicrous.

Being a vegetarian is a personal choice. It's not an ethical consideration that society is morally obligated to embrace. There is nothing wrong with people eating according to their natural role as omnivores, they are not evil because they kill and devour "poor defenseless animals". Vegetarianism doesn't give you a moral high ground that you can wave in other people's faces and use to make yourself feel better. It's a dietary choice, nothing more.

I think it's really tacky and cheap to bring in the whole "get off your highhorse attitude", Drubee and the same to you to Lily.

And yes, being vegetarian is a personal choice but ethics are also personal choices as well. But I'm very confused now, because "natural" and "nature designed us like this" sound like the exact same concept to me ...

Gruff hahahah can't believe that Hindu thing. :p My best friend is Hindu and she doesn't eat beef either but apparently it's ok have beef gelatin. Hinduism is very complicated ... although I think my friend just likes jelly beans

[Ave/Sariella]

Well according to this discussion and science, everything is.. Morally wrong.. And i personally eat meat to survive, i can barely chew or swallow greens, i'm only able to deal with some fruits and i often lack iron alot and i'd HAVE to take iron pills which i do not want to as they cause me to be unable to have a shit!
That sucks.

And the whole greens and fruit thing, it is not because i don't like it, it is just due to the reasons stated above.

[corleth]

I don't care, pretentious people who use their own little quirks like veganism really piss me off. I don't need more people giving fucking stupid reasons for showing their superiority when they just want to inflate their own ego.

Nice assumptions, I'm not a vegan though, at least get that part right.

[Shaelyssa]

I don't care, pretentious people who use their own little quirks like veganism really piss me off. I don't need more people giving fucking stupid reasons for showing their superiority when they just want to inflate their own ego.

You should hate people who use their diet choices to inflate their own ego then, not anyone who's a vegan or a vegetarian ... nobody is trying to appear better than anyone else

And of course I sound pretentious, I'm trying to argue my point - you can't avoid sounding pretentious when you're debating something ...

[Lyniath]

Well you've proved my assumptions about you were right before; you're the one person on this community I absolutely cannot stand.

And you can - you argue by not saying "I'm fucking jesus because I don't hurt fluffy little kittens and survive off the love given off by magic flower babies."

[Shaelyssa]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10598926

If you insist on nitpicking.

Remember reading an article in Time magazine implying that plants could feel pain o_o it mentioned this book where people discovered that and everyone became a "fruiterian" . I'll try to find the article and post it, was kinda interesting but I didn't read it online originally so might be difficult

And you can - you argue by not saying "I'm fucking jesus because I don't hurt fluffy little kittens and survive off the love given off by magic flower babies."

I never said that though :(!

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