Re: The vent thread

[Amaryl]

Don't forget Cheese is made with Rennet

Don't forget gelatine could be used in your Wine (yes this is a veggy journal, since that seems like an appropriate source)

its not easy going green

[Seranita]

what made you decide to go green anyway?

[Shaelyssa]

And fish aren't vegetables.

Sorry to break it to you, but ...

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/editors/25139/

[Grufftoof]

Don't forget Cheese is made with Rennet

Don't forget gelatine could be used in your Wine (yes this is a veggy journal, since that seems like an appropriate source)

its not easy going green

In your jelly beans too (gelatine).

In your beer (fish finings/bone meal).

etc etc

tisn't easy. Fair play if you do it.

Not my bag sir. Not my bag.

[Amaryl]

I'm not green, light no, I have no ethical objections to killing animals for meat. Slaughter away, I say.

i'm just saying if I was going to, that would be the most daunting task

[Seranita]

ahhh I see.. all this was started cos i thaught you were planning to go vegi

[Ave/Sariella]

Exercise doesn't always help stress, it depends on how you view it, how you do it and how you view yourself etc etc and maybe you're straining yourself thus stressing your body.
I don't think you wrote it, but what is it you feel about your heart?

Hmm maybe. I did think that perhaps all the problems were because of over exertion but I don't think that's the case cause I'd get random attacks throughout the day sometimes. Usually I get really really bad chest pains (near my heart) when I exercise. I have a heart rate monitor I wear around my chest and sometimes my heart rate would go up to 200 bpm and if I don't quickly slow down and stop and try to calm myself I pass out. Usually though what happens when I exercise nowadays is I get like a really horrible feeling of tightness around my chest and I start to wheeze and cough

Sometimes though these things might happen to me if I just like walk up a flight of stairs or something. One time I walked up two flight of stairs and was very close to passing out right after. It's weird though cause sometimes it'd be fine and other times it'd be really bad. Like today I went for a run, no problem at all (felt a little bit lightheated but probably cause of the horrible heat)

This sounds exactly like some of the trouble i've had and as i said earlier, no problem has been found at all, my very good doctor, simply said stress. So hopefully this little convo will have given you abit of peace about it!

[Amaryl]

Lol no

I was just commenting xD

It is one of my hobbies in life, to test the limits of Ethical Veggies. And sadly most them do have a point where they say: but i'm doing as much as i can! I don't have time/energy/resources to find it out for every product!

though I do wonder at corleth, and Shae,

do you use any food supplements? like vitamin's to make sure you get the right stuff? Or do you get everything you need with food?

[Shaelyssa]

I see nothing wrong in eating the flesh of an animal.

You're a bad person and you should feel bad.

It's not just the ethical side of it that should stop you from eating meat, it's also the fact that it's very bad for the environment. Cows produce so much methane (a greenhouse gas!!!!! :evil: ) which contributes to the enhanced greenhouse effect (AND THUS GLOBAL WARMING).

Also, to produce a kilogram of beef as opposed to a kilogram of grain, you'd have to use SO much more land, water, energy and just resources in general. I read somewhere that if the entire world switched to a Western, meat-based diet then we'd need 3 planet Earth's to support ourselves - not sure of the validity of the statement though but still.

Cows don't come packaged in blue polystyrene. Burgers aren't don't just appear magically. Chickens don't go on trees.

That's how meat producers and our society in general make you feel though. Most people do not connect the hamburger they are eating with a moving, breathing, pooping, peeing cow, nor do they equate that juicy slab of veal with a poor, defenseless calf that was just killed a few days after it was born. That missing element is what makes most people just dig into their steak without giving where it came from a second thought. When you go to a restaurant, you don't get to pick a cow and then have it slaughtered, butchered and cooked in front of you. It comes to you all ready cooked and done and ready to eat.

It's very easy to forget that what you're eating is actually a cow. I know it sounds silly, but it's true ... your meat does come packaged in white polystyrene (blue? err?) and burgers do just appear naturally. Chickens indeed do not grow on trees though (thankfully ... can you imagine going for a walk in the park and having a ripe chicken just fall off one of the branches and onto your head D: eep)

[Shaelyssa]

This sounds exactly like some of the trouble i've had and as i said earlier, no problem has been found at all, my very good doctor, simply said stress. So hopefully this little convo will have given you abit of peace about it!

Seriously??? Aaaah I love you so much Ave :D and yes, actually it did help a lot :) Now I have some peace of mind at least to know that I'm not crazy or something ... what did you do though to like get better? I used to be very easily stressed out before and I used to always get panic attacks almost every other day but they just sort of stopped coming so frequently so I thought it probably wasn't cause of the stress. But if it's been happening to you too cause of stress as well ... hmm ya thanks a lot Ave :)

[Shaelyssa]

do you use any food supplements? like vitamin's to make sure you get the right stuff? Or do you get everything you need with food?

Well I do yes but they're vegetarian supplements. I used to take vitamin supplements even when I used to eat meat though just to make sure I got all the necessary nutrients anyways. Just cause you eat meat doesn't mean finish you have all the necessary vitamins and nutrients :p

Obviously it's better to have the real thing rather than take supplements but if I didn't take supplements and ate everything else instead though I'd become huge :(

[Amaryl]

Oh I agree with you there Shae, but is it possible to get all the nutrients without supplements?

[Drustai]

That's how meat producers and our society in general make you feel though. Most people do not connect the hamburger they are eating with a moving, breathing, pooping, peeing cow, nor do they equate that juicy slab of veal with a poor, defenseless calf that was just killed a few days after it was born. That missing element is what makes most people just dig into their steak without giving where it came from a second thought. When you go to a restaurant, you don't get to pick a cow and then have it slaughtered, butchered and cooked in front of you. It comes to you all ready cooked and done and ready to eat.

It's very easy to forget that what you're eating is actually a cow. I know it sounds silly, but it's true ... your meat does come packaged in white polystyrene (blue? err?) and burgers do just appear naturally. Chickens indeed do not grow on trees though (thankfully ... can you imagine going for a walk in the park and having a ripe chicken just fall off one of the branches and onto your head D: eep)

Or perhaps we do, and we just don't care, because we don't impose unnecessary moral complications on ourselves like you do?

There is no ethical consideration aside from what you make up for yourself. Animals are not humans regardless of how much you try to pretend they are. More than that, they are "designed" for being eaten, that's their place on the food chain. That's reality for you. Eat or be eaten. No animal other than humans has such silly worries about 'ethics' when they go out and chomp down on each other. It's part of mother nature. We're just the top predator.


The environment argument is the only one that makes sense, and that's because it's a matter of practicality.

[Shaelyssa]

Don't forget Cheese is made with Rennet

Don't forget gelatine could be used in your Wine (yes this is a veggy journal, since that seems like an appropriate source)

its not easy going green

In your jelly beans too (gelatine).

In your beer (fish finings/bone meal).

etc etc

tisn't easy. Fair play if you do it.

Not my bag sir. Not my bag.

God I have to admit I miss those rowntree's gums :( they were my all time favourite candy

You shouldn't be phazed by that though if you're considering to go vegetarian... just because it might be near impossible to go COMPLETELY vegetarian, doesn't mean you should just give up and not bother at all.

I'm sure a couple of the tractors that helped make these baby carrots I'm eating right now probably ran over a couple of squirrels or something :(

[corleth]

Your ethics, maybe. Mine, no.

I see nothing wrong in eating the flesh of an animal. So long as that animal has lived well, and died (as) well (as can be).

It is wrong to prioritize our desire for luxuries (e.g. meat) over the basic needs (e.g. survival) of other animals. Meat-eating would be justified if it were necessary for human health. But it isn’t. The desire to eat meat is more often than not a cultural event rather than a natural one, anyway. The 'prestige' that goes with eating meat ('real man'), as well as the convenience and the protein myth thats thrown around so much are the main causes for why the majority of people have not recognised that the act of eating flesh which is brought about by suffering is morally permissible when considering the (often healthier) alternatives.

[corleth]

There is no ethical consideration aside from what you make up for yourself. Animals are not humans regardless of how much you try to pretend they are. More than that, they are "designed" for being eaten, that's their place on the food chain. That's reality for you. Eat or be eaten. No animal other than humans has such silly worries about 'ethics' when they go out and chomp down on each other. It's part of mother nature. We're just the top predator.

We have evolved to the point where we can recognise that causing unnecessary suffering to other creatures is wrong. Other animals cannot. They do not have the autonomy. It's a part of their nature but now, not a part of ours, as I've said its more a cultural practice than a natural one.

[Ave/Sariella]

This sounds exactly like some of the trouble i've had and as i said earlier, no problem has been found at all, my very good doctor, simply said stress. So hopefully this little convo will have given you abit of peace about it!

Seriously??? Aaaah I love you so much Ave and yes, actually it did help a lot Now I have some peace of mind at least to know that I'm not crazy or something ... what did you do though to like get better? I used to be very easily stressed out before and I used to always get panic attacks almost every other day but they just sort of stopped coming so frequently so I thought it probably wasn't cause of the stress. But if it's been happening to you too cause of stress as well ... hmm ya thanks a lot Ave

It kinda just stopped appearing as often but i do feel i've got less emotional stress these days, i simply just went around and did what i felt like doing and chilling out.
It does still appear at times though.

[Shaelyssa]

Or perhaps we do, and we just don't care, because we don't impose unnecessary moral complications on ourselves like you do?

There is no ethical consideration aside from what you make up for yourself. Animals are not humans regardless of how much you try to pretend they are. More than that, they are "designed" for being eaten, that's their place on the food chain. That's reality for you. Eat or be eaten. No animal other than humans has such silly worries about 'ethics' when they go out and chomp down on each other. It's part of mother nature. We're just the top predator.

The environment argument is the only one that makes sense, and that's because it's a matter of practicality.

Maybe, I was speaking generally with the whole "missing element" thing.

And yes, I agree with you, animals are "designed" to be eaten, but it doesn't mean it's ok to eat them. People's buttholes aren't designed for things to be stuck up in them but people still do it. And this "eat or be eaten" ideology is ridiculous. We're not living in the Savannah or something.

And yes, it's okay for animals to eat each other because that's the only way they can survive. Predators must eat meat to survive - but we don't. We can easily turn to a plant-based diet and avoid unnecessary killing of animals ...

[Drustai]

There is no ethical consideration aside from what you make up for yourself. Animals are not humans regardless of how much you try to pretend they are. More than that, they are "designed" for being eaten, that's their place on the food chain. That's reality for you. Eat or be eaten. No animal other than humans has such silly worries about 'ethics' when they go out and chomp down on each other. It's part of mother nature. We're just the top predator.

We have evolved to the point where we can recognise that causing unnecessary suffering to other creatures is wrong. Other animals cannot. They do not have the autonomy. It's a part of their nature but now, not a part of ours, as I've said its more a cultural practice than a natural one.

It is a natural one. Humans are not designed to be herbivores. We are designed to be omnivores.

And yes, it's okay for animals to eat each other because that's the only way they can survive. Predators must eat meat to survive - but we don't. We can easily turn to a plant-based diet and avoid unnecessary killing of animals ...

Yeah, and that's a fine personal choice. But don't start calling other humans evil for doing what is natural just because you've imposed unnecessary ethical complications on yourself.

[corleth]

It is a natural one. Humans are not designed to be herbivores. We are designed to be omnivores.

Design implies a malfunction if the designed acts contrary to its purpose. That is not the case. Humans function perfectly well and healthily on vegetarian and vegan diets.

[Raelan]

[Shaelyssa]

Oh I agree with you there Shae, but is it possible to get all the nutrients without supplements?

You agree that I'd become huge if I ate more?!?!?

But I think so so, yes but your health and quality of life are hardly going to drastically deteriorate if you have slight defecenicies in x mineral or y vitamin anyways. Most people are probably slightly lacking in one nutrient or another anyways.

Yeah, and that's a fine personal choice. But don't start calling other humans evil for doing what is natural just because you've imposed unnecessary ethical complications on yourself.

Lol I was joking with the whole gruff thing ... I rarely ever try to persuade people to go vegetarian anyways. And I don't think meat eaters are bad people, I just think they're making bad decisions. It would be fine if there wasn't a hurt party involved (ie the animals), but because there is, I can still ask people to avoid doing something I think is wrong :p

And please don't try to argue that "what is natural must be right". It's such an absurd and ridiculous argument. How do you even define what is natural and what isn't? There's no such thing as "naturality"

[Muzjhath]

Your ethics, maybe. Mine, no.

I see nothing wrong in eating the flesh of an animal. So long as that animal has lived well, and died (as) well (as can be).

It is wrong to prioritize our desire for luxuries (e.g. meat) over the basic needs (e.g. survival) of other animals. Meat-eating would be justified if it were necessary for human health. But it isn’t. The desire to eat meat is more often than not a cultural event rather than a natural one, anyway. The 'prestige' that goes with eating meat ('real man'), as well as the convenience and the protein myth thats thrown around so much are the main causes for why the majority of people have not recognised that the act of eating flesh which is brought about by suffering is morally permissible when considering the (often healthier) alternatives.

THis might sound offensive. But honestly, I found this post, and your next one, to be fairly pretentious and full of shit.

I eat meat for one reason. It tastes great. Unless some idiot ruins it then I bloody won't touch it.
I won't stop eating meat because it's "wrong" "bad" or some other silly reason just because "THOSE POOR ANIMALS!"
Yes, I prefeer fairtrade on my coffee, I prefeer ecological meat/greens when I can afford it. But can't pick and choose most of the time costs too much. I also prefeer near produced if I can get it. BUt just because I can't get it doesn't mean I'll stop eating it.

As for the things people said with "disjointing meat from the animal". I do not. I have picked an animal for slauther and eaten parts of it (a deer in this case). I have been to slaughter houses. I have been at meat producing farms. SOme parts I really disagree with (overfilling a truck and then driving for two days to get to a slaughterhouse, for example).

But yea. I'd stop eating meat because of things like that the day a every vegan becomes a fruiterian.

There is some AMAZING vegan food, AMAZING Veggi food. Still there is amazing meat food as well. So why the FUCK should I skip one?

As for the environment arguments. That only becomes valid if all of humanity stops using fosil fules because before that it's basicly a piss in the nile of greenhouse gasses.

Tomorrow I'm gonna make me a fucking sandwich with bacon, lettuce, cheese, and tomato. And it will be BLOODY DELICIOUS!

[Lyniath]

Shae is veggy?
Also, COR IS PRETENTIOUS OMFG!!!

[Shaelyssa]

Gorillas and most primates/monkeys also have canines and most of them are herbivores. They use their canines (have you seen a gorilla's canines? they're massive) to intimidate and scare other animals or gorillas or whatever



bitch!

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