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Draenic Discourses on the Inner Light (Updated 25-7-2013 with: "The Army of Light Marches On")

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Rae Wulfgnar
Sorayah
Seranita
Cid
Thelos
Grufftoof
Skaraa
Grim
Drustai
Eowale
Shaelyssa
Morgaan
Ron Sexton
Cadaemus
Amaryl
Dharum
Skarain
Aldric Essalus Helmfrid
corleth
Melnerag
Lorainne/Bridlington
Lexgrad
erwtenpeller
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Post by erwtenpeller Thu May 03, 2012 10:22 am

I've started leaking some of these ideas to the horde through scuzy. Naaruvadin, indeed!
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Post by Grim Thu May 03, 2012 10:38 am

Interesting stuff, might write a Horde counter-version Razz

Silly Light-botherers.
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Post by Thelos Thu May 03, 2012 12:51 pm

Drustai wrote:
Eowale wrote:Heresy, all of it! *Splutters 'blasphemy' over and over*

Silly nonbeliever.

/pat


Actually, you can't call someone a heretic if you're not a believer yourself!
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Post by Seranita Thu May 03, 2012 2:05 pm

I am pleased at a sudden resurgence of a thelos.. your sight is pleaseing XD
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Post by Skaraa Thu May 03, 2012 4:25 pm

I think the whole philosophy of the Holy Light is rather universal to all the races who worship it. I cannot speak for the Tauren but lets look at the Human philosophy;

You have the three virtues; Respect, Tenacity, and Compassion. Respect refers to not harming others, not severing their connections to the Universe. Compassion is about helping those who are truly in need, but at the same time not doing everything for someone so as to hurt their ability to help themselves.
If we look back at the quotes you have made:

"Simple kindnesses, charitable deeds, service to those in need. These are all fruits of the Light."

Right there is the virtue of Respect from the Human teachings, and (in part) also the virtue of Compassion.

Tenacity is about dedicating your life to the Holy Light and it's teachings. It is said that it takes a lifetime to truly master Tenacity, again let us look at your quotes:

"Over the course of time, through obedience to the Light's guidance, one becomes more sensitive to its voice, and its power.
Great is the healing and blessing power of the Light's most diligent followers."


On a side note; the Cult of Forgotten Shadow adds a fourth virtue; Power, which tells you to strive to increase the strength of your connection to the universe in the attempt to become more powerful. It ties in well with Tenacity and can, perhaps, been seen in the last part of the above quote.

The teachings of the Holy Light, from what I see here, are the same in all cultures with only small cultural differences - in a way it is comparable to different denominations of Christianity or even the three different branches of the Abrahamic Religions that we see in real life.
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Post by Drustai Thu May 03, 2012 5:22 pm

Skaraa wrote:The teachings of the Holy Light, from what I see here, are the same in all cultures with only small cultural differences - in a way it is comparable to different denominations of Christianity or even the three different branches of the Abrahamic Religions that we see in real life.

Which is what this thread is about... the cultural differences of the Draenic interpretation of the Holy Light.

Although interestingly, the standard Holy Light faith in-game is primarily inspired by said Abrahamic Religions. Much of Thelos' ideas, on the other hand, are based off of Buddhism, yet remains completely compatible. Most religions are actually quite similar, when you get down to it.

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Post by Skaraa Thu May 03, 2012 5:37 pm

Drustai wrote:
Skaraa wrote:The teachings of the Holy Light, from what I see here, are the same in all cultures with only small cultural differences - in a way it is comparable to different denominations of Christianity or even the three different branches of the Abrahamic Religions that we see in real life.

Which is what this thread is about... the cultural differences of the Draenic interpretation of the Holy Light.

Although interestingly, the standard Holy Light faith in-game is primarily inspired by said Abrahamic Religions. Much of Thelos' ideas, on the other hand, are based off of Buddhism, yet remains completely compatible. Most religions are actually quite similar, when you get down to it.


Indeed, they are. Likely to do with the fact that they are early attempts to explain the world around us and, more so, to set down ethical and moral teachings. All around the world we tend to see these same ethical and moral codes; try not to kill each other etc. Though I think we are moving too far into the evolution of altruism and real life so...

Does anyone know about the Tauren perspective on the Holy Light? I would be very interested to see a rundown of their beliefs in comparison to that of the teachings of the Naaru and Church of the Holy Light. Smile
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Post by Thelos Sat May 05, 2012 12:07 pm

Skaraa wrote:
Does anyone know about the Tauren perspective on the Holy Light? I would be very interested to see a rundown of their beliefs in comparison to that of the teachings of the Naaru and Church of the Holy Light. Smile

To put it bluntly: I do not think there is one. Tauren and the Light are a very recent matchup with barely any history to it. I know the Tauren Sun-priests-and-walkers are very closely related to their Druids, as the latter worship the moon and the former the sun, and the earth-mother both. From that one might extrapolate that Tauren faith, rather than being nontheistic, is polytheïstic; or at least in the sense that there are multiple deities part of a greater, all-encompassing one. In this case, the sun and the moon (An'she and M'usha respectively), while being distinct, are also part of the greater God which is the earthmother. Much like how different polytheïstic orders of the same faith focus on different deities, Sunwalkers would co-exist with Druids, each focusing on another God while keeping the other's in high regard.

An'she would in turn embody all of the virtues of the Holy Light we've discussed here - mainly altruism and all it entails. The imagery kind of writes itself, the Sun being the source of all Light on this world, with all of its selfless life-giving properties. She is aloof but also close - distant yet nearby, touching all living things equally. "Sunwalker" is a very fitting name for a Tauren paladin, for he is one that walks in the Light and embodies all the virtue of their patron god(dess) An'she.

This difference, while significant, ultimately matters little about what virtues are propagated. It definitely means the active worship should be much different, though. Instead of praying to some distant-yet-omnipresent nontheistic cosmic force, Tauren Sunwalkers pray directly to the Sun Goddess, and regard their powers as Favors of Her. In practice, this might make for a more ritualistic and paganistic practice of faith, including tributes and offerings. Who knows? I've never actually roleplayed a tauren, so I'm just sort of winging it here. If there are any experts present, they're free to correct me.

So, back to the actual thread.

-----

My goal in this thread is, like Drustai said, to expand upon the Draenic interpretation of the Light. It's a tricky thing. As a dreanei roleplayer I've always felt it was very important to ensure that, while there should be similarities, draenei worship is significantly different from human practice. The draenei are an ancient race who are deeply religious; having had more time to perfect their faith and one obvious significant difference in the Naaru, so their faith should feel significantly different. They're ancient and from space; so it should feel appropriately alien. The actual lore doesn't give us much difference, though, instead stressing the similarities in dialogue and flavor more often than the difference. Faith is the great unifier. My job is to both respect that while making sure there's a tangible difference, too.

My only real reliable in-game source for this are Almonen's speeches in Shattrath; hence the title "Draenei discourses on the inner Light", since it is this inner Light Almonen discusses. That's one piece of a three-part puzzle. The other two are the fact that the Draenei have no set-in-stone doctrine for players to read, and the other is of course the Naaru that are always floating there. So, "the focus on an Inner Light", "absence of set virtues" and "Naaru" are the most important lore-given cornerstones. From the latter flows a most of the imagery, the other two I used to justify a paradigm shift from a Christian and Positive framework that most human writers use to a more Buddhist and Negative framework. Positive and negative refers to the doctrine: a positive ethic is one that prescribes certain rules and virtues that the layman needs to gain, a negative ethic is one that describe certain vices and hindrances that needs to be eliminated. The former assumes that the Soul is a blank slate or in a state of perversion and is to be painted in the color of the Light trough rigid practice; the latter assumes that the Soul is already painted in the color of Light to begin with and needs only to be prevented from being painted in any different, darker color. I have interpreted the "Inner Light" as a living, present cosmic force that prescribes the Good that is to be done trough an actual presence in the Soul; so the main religious question shifts from an ontological one i.e what does the Light want, to an epistemological one; i.e how can I come to understand the Light properly and how do I make sure my Soul is perfectly receptive to Its voice. In the former, one grows in the Light by repeating and internalizing an external doctrine and Will; in the latter one returns (this is important) to an internal (even more important) Will by eliminating influences that are hazardous to It.

Of course the two paradigms don't actually negate each other – they in fact reinforce one another - while working on eliminating distractions, positive virtues are a great boon and anchor to cling to. Likewise, while trying to internalize said virtues, it is incredibly handy to learn how to remove obstacles that would prevent you from carrying out said virtues. This way the Naaruvadan can acknowledge the boons of various different Light-inspired doctrines, from the basic Three Virtues to the Holy Chapter of Anethion, without committing himself to any one more than the other. This is a great boon for roleplay, as it allows you to peacefully enter debate with faithful of other races with great tolerance of another's views. Given the peaceful and co-operative nature of the draenei, I felt this was important; dreanei are not too judgmental of other races (but very judgmental of their own!) and will very rarely discard somebody for upholding deviant views. They don't go about calling many people heretics; the actual doctrine to commit heresy against is very slim and vague. Rather, they might call someone ignorant or haughty, rather than a sinner or a heretic. Another atvantage for allowing such tolerance and a variety of valid religious doctrine is that you do not have to force your ideals and philosophy as the Draenei faith, but you can present it as one of many. You can respect Draenei roleplayers that prefer a more Christian approach while continueing to push your faith in another direction, neither excluding the other.

Ultimately the Naaruvadan believes that the Light's Will cannot be caught in any doctrine or words; it is indescribable and unfathomable by mortal minds. To perfectly encompass it, the faithful will have to become more – or less depending on your perspective – than mortal. This is where the Naaruvada gets most Buddhist. In order to become a perfect vessel of Light, one has to eliminate the Self to transcend the Self, knock down the barriers between different souls, and accept an ontology which is completely alien from sense-data and experience. Unity with the Light, a greeting some Naaruvadans tried to popularize, means the destruction of the self – which, somewhat paradoxically, means a realization of the true Self that is in unison with the Light.

That's all highly theoretical, though, and something you will only get out of Thelos after a series of long and serious conversations, in which he has come to acknowledge your character as ready to receive such alien concepts. In practice and roleplay, the paradigm shift allows you to adopt a different vocabulary, which in turn allows you to present your Draenic faith as significantly different from that of other races. Instead of 'Sins', the Naaruvadan will speak of 'Hindrances and weaknesses'; in the Human faith, a sin is defined in the terms in which it violates a positive rule or virtue. In the negative Naaruvadin faith, it is a negative against the Light Itself on the Whole; and the only sin is Ignorance of Its Divine Will that is inside us all. Naaruvadins don't call anyone sinners, rather, they call them out on their ignorance. Their minds are simply too muddled up distractions and hindrances to see the obvious Truths. They don't actively violate the Light with malicious intent, because properly understood, such a thing is regarded as impossible. There can be no such thing as ill will against the Light, for it is perfectly Good and inspires endless love. The only way a soul could commit a sin is if it is ignorant of the Light in some way or the other. In this paradigm, all deviations of perfect behavior are seen as expressions of ignorance.

In the same lieu, a Naaruvadin will very rarely speak of 'Heretics', for their actual doctrine is very small; there is very little to commit heresy against. Rather, heretics are, again, ignorant about some facet of the Light and are due for proper instruction. Interestingly, I have found that this super-perfectionist view (assuming everybody is expected to behavior cordially by nature and seeing all deviation from this behavior as abnormal) forms a strange and fitting continuity with Eredar society as on Argus. It only replaces one form of perfection with another; it replaces perfection of body and intellect with the perfection of piety and devotion, which expresses itself in extremely rigorous religious practice that is omnipresent in society, rather than hyper-competition and hedonism as it did on Argus.

The purging of ignorance and hindrances also allows the Naaruvadin roleplayer to shift the focus from prayer and ritual to meditation and sermons/teaching. For some reason or the other, the idea of actively meditating draenei really struck a chord with many dreanei roleplayers. Perhaps their seemingly tranquil nature and their noble stature lends itself well for a meditative lifestyle, or the connotations it has with the mysterious of the Orient translate themselves well into the mysteries of alien planets. Fact is that meditation seems to allow itself to be fairly seamlessly integrated with draenei characters. The official leader short story featuring Velen – the most pious mortal in existence – showed him almost exclusively meditating. The image of those ancient and wizened creatures beyond time in a state of trance sort of speaks to people, myself included.

So, to return to our earlier question of how to make draenei faith feel different from human faith while staying true to the lore, we can make a couple of suggestions:

  • A paradigm shift from positive to negative ethics
  • A whole set of different concepts to use to play out said ethic
  • Hyper-perfectionist
  • Active meditation
  • The Naaru


I haven't said much in this post about the Naaru, mostly because I feel that this is something most players have already perfectly integrated into their roleplay. As a closing comment, I'd like to say a few things about my choice for Buddhism as the main source of inspiration. On a more personal note, it is the religion, besides Christianity of course (I'm Dutch after all), I'm most closely acquainted with. I've read both English studies on the subject as well as translated religious texts and mantra's, and I've always been fascinated and charmed by the religion, both the practices and the imagery. I even have one of those kitsch garden Buddha's looking over me typing on my bookshelf. Besides a personal interest though I do believe that a lot of Buddhist philosophy is almost directly applicable to both the Star Wars and WoW universes respectively, because out of all deities, I feel the impersonal, cosmic force of the Light/Force resembles Dharma from Buddhism, or Tao from Taoism the most. Sadly, my knowledge of the latter is limited, but since on this matter - their application to both universes – they overlap a lot, it is perfectly fine. Since I'm not too sure many people are acquainted with the concept of Dharma, here is the Wikipedia definition:

Wikipedia wrote:Dharma (Sanskrit: धर्म dhárma, Pali: धम्म dhamma); literally that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe[1]) means Law or Natural Law and is a concept of central importance in Indian philosophy and religion. As well as referring to Law in the universal or abstract sense dharma designates those behaviours considered necessary for the maintenance of the natural order of things. Therefore dharma may encompass ideas such as duty, vocation, religion and everything that is considered correct, proper or decent behaviour. The idea of dharma as duty or propriety derives from an idea found in India's ancient legal and religious texts that there is a divinely instituted natural order of things (rta) and justice, social harmony and human happiness require that human beings discern and live in a manner appropriate to the requirements of that order. According to the various Indian religions, such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism, beings that live in accordance with dharma proceed more quickly toward dharma yukam, moksha or nirvana (personal liberation). The antonym of dharma is adharma, meaning unnatural or immoral.

Because of the massive amount of different Buddhist sects and doctrines, there's more writings that can be suited to fit WoW than I can possibly read and adjust. Mostly it is the idea of the religiosity of a set of ethereal rules and laws that bring forth enlightenment that makes Buddhist writings so suitable for usage in WoW; since the Light is almost exactly that, both a normative cosmic regulatory force, and the actions and feelings brought about by said force. The Light (and dharma) is as close-by yet far away: divine and unfathomable, yet permeating all of creation. The worship of such a force; that is one of the unique facets of Buddhism (and many other eastern religions), and one that coincides with the Light closely. Another great asset of Buddhism is its great tolerance for other thinkers and ideas; rival schools, though of course entering in heated discussions, never or rarely warred against each other and aimed to snuff each other out. This sense of tolerance and openness is, as I said, well suited for the draenei people.

The actual benefit of shifting to a more Buddhist feeling religious practice is of course best described by my avatar. It feels different, ancient and alien. The concepts, the imagery, the garments, the meditation; they each have those strong mystical connotations of the Orient; and I have tried to use that mysticality to my advantage: the Orient is Space; and it is Alien in both senses of the word. When we westerners think of Buddhism, we think of an ancient and alien religion, and it is exactly that sentiment I want other players and characters to feel when dealing with dreanei faith.
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Post by Drustai Sat May 05, 2012 12:54 pm

Thelos wrote:... Positive and negative refers to the doctrine: a positive ethic is one that prescribes certain rules and virtues that the layman needs to gain, a negative ethic is one that describe certain vices and hindrances that needs to be eliminated. The former assumes that the Soul is a blank slate or in a state of perversion and is to be painted in the color of the Light trough rigid practice; the latter assumes that the Soul is already painted in the color of Light to begin with and needs only to be prevented from being painted in any different, darker color. I have interpreted the "Inner Light" as a living, present cosmic force that prescribes the Good that is to be done trough an actual presence in the Soul; so the main religious question shifts from an ontological one i.e what does the Light want, to an epistemological one; i.e how can I come to understand the Light properly and how do I make sure my Soul is perfectly receptive to Its voice. In the former, one grows in the Light by repeating and internalizing an external doctrine and Will; in the latter one returns (this is important) to an internal (even more important) Will by eliminating influences that are hazardous to It...


... In this paradigm, all deviations of perfect behavior are seen as expressions of ignorance...

... Interestingly, I have found that this super-perfectionist view (assuming everybody is expected to behavior cordially by nature and seeing all deviation from this behavior as abnormal) forms a strange and fitting continuity with Eredar society as on Argus. It only replaces one form of perfection with another; it replaces perfection of body and intellect with the perfection of piety and devotion, which expresses itself in extremely rigorous religious practice that is omnipresent in society, rather than hyper-competition and hedonism as it did on Argus.

This is one of the big facets of draenei that I've always tried to encourage. Many people seem to think that draenei are 'boring' because they are so perfect. Instead, that perfection is one of their biggest and most interesting cultural traits, one that opens up many RP possibilities.

More or less, the idea of "human nature" simply does not apply to the draenei at all. Human nature is that people are naturally flawed. The draenei perspective, "draenei nature", is that people are naturally without flaw. Therefore, where negative emotions and actions can be rationalized and justified in human belief, as something that is natural, in draenei culture such things are never justifiable because they are completely unnatural.

It's why, in the various religious communities that have come and gone over the years, I've always had Dru take a firm stance against the common human argument that 'anger is necessary'. Many human religious players make that remark, that it makes them stronger and more capable at defeating their enemies. While the idea that anger is natural and useful might be applicable to human culture, for draenei it would never be justified. It would always be a hindrance, an influence of shadow, pulling one away from the Light. Embracing anger, or any negative emotion, in order to defeat an opponent would never be a victory for the draenei. It would always be a loss. Physical victory is not what is truly important--spiritual victory is.

Many human characters (and even players) have remarked that Drustai is an upstanding and selfless person (at least, before recent events). They judged her on human standards, and by human standards Dru is a good person, because, while possessing flaws, she does struggle to make up for them with her virtues. But by draenei standards, she is a disgrace, and most good draenei RPers recognize that. Regardless of how much good she does, she is not perfect. She possesses those flaws, she allows herself to fall prey to the influences of negative emotions, so she is abnormal, a failure. Humans might say it is okay, because it is "human" to have flaws. But it is not "draenei". Dru herself recognizes it, and is why she believes she will never be able to atone, regardless of how much good she has done. She does not believe she can ever reach the perfection that is required, that is normal for draenei culture.

That culture is what makes draenei fun to play. There is much room for conflict and turmoil despite what many people think. It's just a different kind of conflict.

Draenei are extremists. They devote themselves utterly, first to magic and now to religion. The vast majority of draenei are either good, or evil (Man'ari). Few are neutral, and most of those eventually fall to one side or another. Every part of their culture demands that they pick a side. You are either perfect, or you are abnormal. Perfection is normal, not extraordinary.

Of course, they aren't quite that blunt on how they react to "failures". Rarely is there outright discrimination like that. It's subtle. It's that quiet, arrogant sense of "you are inferior, and must be helped so that you can be perfect.". Desiring to help someone, implies that they need to be helped. It's an innately arrogant belief, even if altruistic.

Humans idolize heroes, because those people are the few to rise to grace. Draenei don't. Draenei instead concentrate on villains (the Legion, the Broken (there is still lingering discrimination against them)), because those are the ones who failed and fell from grace.

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Post by Thelos Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:08 am

On Education on Soran-Zenkil.
Held on Shattrath, Aldor Rise, on 1-06-2012.


Traditionally, a lecture from senior to junior anchorite is always started off with the Manta of Education. Since the subject I'll be talking about today is the education of educators, I thought it only fitting we'd recite the Mantra together today.

Now oftentimes when I recite a mantra before or during a sermon or seminar, my words seem to only echo in the void. People unfamiliar with the Naaruvadean traditions seem to be unable to tell a Mantra from preaching.

The difference is simple. A Mantra requires participation. The words hold power, not over the listener, but over the speaker. So rather than staying passive, the communion must actively recite the Mantra for it to have any effect.

So, I will demand of everyone that they participate. No exceptions. I do not want any one to listen in silence.

Repeat after me.

Let the Studies that we together undertake be effulgent;

Let there be no Animosity amongst us;

Peace, Peace, Peace.

By the Naaru, may it be so.

The practice of education is that duty of the Anchorite which is the most loved and blessed by the Light. Though it may appear that it is only the student who grows closer to the Light trough the receiving of knowledge from his elders,

it is in fact also the teacher that grows along with his students. By allowing the Light of their wisdom to shine upon their students, they will foster their own Inner Light to a glow. The practice of education is one of mutual enlightenment.

The student learns, the teacher shares, and both do the Light's work.

The craft or art of teaching is complicated and has many facets. For starters, not every student is the same, and a method or technique that is successful on one, may completely fail on another. There is no one golden method that always yields success.

The core of the teaching craft lies exactly in the ability to divine what method works best on which student. In ancient Erdun, we call this ability “Soran-zenkil”. The direct translation to Common would be “Skill-in-means”,

but since that sounds much too technical and aloof, I will stick to using the Eredun term Soran-zenkil.

Soran-zenkil is a concept which emphasizes that practitioners and teacher may use their own specific methods or techniques that fit the situation in order to gain Enlightenment. The implication is that even if a technique, view, et cetera,

is not ultimately "true" in the highest sense, it may still be an expedient practice to perform, or a helpful view to uphold. In other words, if it may bring the practitioner closer to true realization anyway, it is worth preaching and practicing,

even if it is not strictly true. The exercise of skill which the concept Soran-zenkil it refers to, the ability to adapt one's message to the audience, is of enormous importance to the Naaruvada canon.

The underlying assumption is that, since the Naaru's Divine Gifts and Messages are averbal and bypass the mind to directly affect the heart and soul, no one dogma or technique can ever truly grasp the Light's glorious Truth.

Adhering to any one dogma and declaring it to be the Light's will in written words is blasphemous. The Light does not speak. The Light's ways are far more subtle. The Light does not command. Commands implies force. The Light quietly suggests.

The Light's true message becomes distorted whenever we convince ourselves that we have finally managed to catch its true breadth in a simple set of phrases. A dead doctrine is a dangerous doctrine, and we must never substitute the warmth of the Light

with the cold of quiet ink on paper.

Must we then distort the truth in order to teach it? Must we deceive, lie, and trick our students and even unwitting converts into accepting the Light? No. Lies and stories are two different animals all-together.

Does the fact that the events of the great moralistic tales never actually happened deter their meaning? No, of course not. We tell the truth in the form of what is easy to understand, that which speaks to our emotions as well as our intellect:

in other words, that which speaks to our entire being, instead of only a tiny part of it. A lie is an untrue statement that tells of a falsehood. A story is several untrue statements that together tell a truth.

The virtue of soran-zenkil is one of storytelling, not of lies deceit. We tell the truth, not trough long-winded preaching and tiresome doctrinal scriptures, but trough songs, poems, stories, fables and mythology.

That is soran-zenkil: a virtue and skill, whose merits I pray you have now come to properly appreciate.

Since we opened this lecture with the Mantra of Education, I wish to end it with the Mantra of Understanding, traditionally recited at the end a lecture. Once again, I ask of everyone to recite it with me, no exceptions.

We meditate on the glory of the divine Light;

may it inspire our understanding,

may it inspire our intelligence.

By the Naaru, may it be so.
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Post by Thelos Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:54 pm

More Hymns and Mantra's

Used for the first time in The Draenic Generation Gap

Mantra of Love wrote:
All who love, the Light loves; and all who love, love the Light.

Mantra of the Never-Was One wrote:The unsurpassed, deep, profound, subtle, wonderful Light,
In a hundred thousand million eons, is difficult to encounter;
Now that I've come to receive and hold it, within my sight and hearing,
I vow to fathom the Never-Was One's true and actual meaning.

Hymn: The Light's Fragrance wrote:Incense in the censer now is burning,
All the Light's Realms receives the fragrance.
From afar the void-vast host of Naaru,
All inhale its sweetness.
In every place auspicious clouds appearing
Darkening mists dispersing
Our sincere intentions thus fulfilling
As all the Naaru sing their perfect songs


Last edited by Thelos on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Thelos Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:30 pm

The most important IC writings in this thread have now been bundled together in a GHI book, which means you can now acquire these writings IC.

Bug me on Thelos IC to recieve a copy.
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Post by Drustai Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:45 am

Thelos asked me to copy-paste this from the Draenei group forum, seeing as not as many people check that.

---

The Auchenai

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The Auchenai are one of the most interesting facets of draenei culture. Where the draenei are Light-loving noble people, "the ultimate good guys of the WarCraft universe", the Auchenai are a doom cult of necromancers. They lie in stark contrast to the other draenei, and, with so little obvious lore behind them, are often ignored or otherwise forgotten by many draenei players. This is a mistake, because the Auchenai offer a look into draenei culture that is available nowhere else.

Due to this, I feel it pertinent that I write up a resource on the Auchenai from what scraps of lore we have available. I believe the position of the Auchenai within the draenei says much about draenei culture that people simply miss. It shows a viewpoint on shadow, necromancy, and death that is actually quite different from one might expect from such a religious race. It certainly is a far different viewpoint than is found in human religious orders, and is therefore a ripe opportunity for culture clashes.

Just who were the Auchenai?

The Auchenai were a religious order amongst the draenei. Known as death priests, they focused on the dead and dying. Funeral rites, helping spirits pass on, and maintaining graveyards. They were still worshipers of the Holy Light, as with all draenei. Some Auchenai were likely present across Draenor, but their greatest temple was Auchindoun, the city of the dead, deep in Terokkar Forest. That temple was remarked as one of the greatest temples on Draenor, second only to Karabor. The Auchenai seem to have shared a close relationship with Aldor, whose capital lay in the nearby Shattrath, as both the Auchenai and the Aldor wear almost equivalent robes--teal and blue for the Aldor, and blue and teal for the Auchenai.

This already brings to light some interesting things to note. Most significantly, the draenei had an order of priests whose focus was on death. No such order exists among any other Light-worshiping race, save the Forsaken. Let that sink in for a moment. The most Light-loving race in WarCraft, has an entire religious sect devoted to death. Not only that, but their necropolis, Auchindoun, is treated as the second grandest temple in draenei culture, just behind Karabor. This tells you, right away, that the draenei culture treated death as something significant. Something so important, that it necessitated a great temple and an entire order of priests.

The entry on Auchindoun on the official WarCraft website proves this sentiment with this statement:

"The original exiles on Draenor found death to be an unsettling and unfortunate consequence of life, and so the draenei hid their dead away in the subterranean grave-city of Auchindoun, a labyrinthine marvel located beneath the forests of Terokkar." - World of WarCraft website

The draenei do not treat death lightly. It is an "unsettling and unfortunate consequence of life". Unsettling. Unfortunate. Consider those words for a moment. To the draenei, death is not something to look forward to, nor expected. It happens, sure, but it's not welcomed when it does.

And it does not happen often. The draenei are a race that is near-immortal, if not immortal outright. They have no biological clock to bother them like humans and other races do. They do not have a death to "look forward to". Therefore, they have no need to 'make the most out of life because it is short' because life is not short for them. To them, life is long, if not endless. One can take their time, things can be savored, you do not have to rush anything. So when death happens, but it is not the end result of a century of life, expected and prepared for. No, to a draenei, when death comes, it is a sudden, immediate end, without warning or preparation. There is no such thing as a quiet death to the draenei. No death from old age in their sleep. To the draenei, each death has as much sudden impact as a murder or a fatal accident. It is a traumatic, painful experience.

With that knowledge, it becomes clear just why the draenei would have an order of death priests. The pain wrought to families out of the sudden death of a loved one is extraordinary, and would necessitate an order devoted to resolving this pain, to treating each and every death with the utter devotion and care that it deserves.

What did the Auchenai do?

So, you are a death priest in a race in which death is rare. What exactly do you spend most of your time actually doing?

One of these was monasterial functions. In Auchindoun one finds a large contingent of monks, complete with staves and melee abilities. In fact, monks are one of the most common NPCs in Auchindoun. Indeed, the draenei have no need for the Pandaren to train them to be monks, as they've had their own for millennia. As such, it is possible that Auchindoun was the largest monastery in Draenor. Therefore, when not tending to the dead, the Auchenai were focused on meditation, prayer, choir, manual labor, and the mind-body-spirit exercise of martial arts. If the draenei follow the same traditions as modern monasteries, then many of these monks would have never set foot outside of Auchindoun once they swore themselves to asceticism.

Every Auchenai Initiate seen in Auchindoun wears the same outfit as the monks. This implies that most if not all Auchenai initially spend their time in a monasterial role, before attaining a more focused position, such as soulpriest or vindicator.

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Monk

Another noticeable NPC in Auchindoun are the Vindicators. Therefore, like many draenei orders, the Auchenai also trained paladins and templars, sworn to uphold the Light and defend the grounds. What they defended it from is up for debate, but consider the fact that every draenei death is a violent, traumatic experience. Angry, violent spirits would have been common, and it would have been up to the vindicators to protect the temple from them. Considering that spirits would assault a person's soul, rather than their physical body, this explains why the Auchenai vindicators wear robes instead of plate armor--their duties involve combating angry spirits, not flesh-and-blood opponents. It is possible they did have armor available, but for most of their service they would have had no need for it.

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Vindicator

One interesting NPC seen are the Death-Speakers. These NPCs wear black blindfolds, much like demon hunters. It is unclear if they are a result of the madness affecting the Auchenai post-Orc War, or if they have always been present. If always, then their blindness would have almost certainly been a ritualized process. Considering their names and their blindness, it is very likely that they functioned as mediums. It is probable that they blinded themselves in order to see fully into the spirit realm. While all Auchenai can see dead spirits, the death-speakers would take this a step further, completely cutting off their sight of the mortal realm so that they could witness the world of spirits. It is probable that their function was to more fully convey the desires of the spirits, and to ensure that they rested in peace.

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Death-Speaker

Last are the Soulpriests. The soulpriests performed the standard functions of a priest--holding masses and funerals, comforting the surviving loved ones, and so on. They would have been priests of the Holy Light, like all draenei priests. However, their name confers an additional role, and also one that says much about the draenei. Soulpriest. They did not just focus on the living, but also the dead. Remember what we said about how each draenei death is a traumatic experience, likely to leave tormented and angered ghosts? An angry or tormented ghost will not pass on, it will linger until it has been soothed. Therefore, soulpriests, using soul mirrors, would have had the role of tending to these spirits, enabling them to pass on. It is likely they performed this role in tandem with the death-speakers, with vindicators standing by for protection.

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Soulpriest

Shadow Magic and Necromancy

Now things get really interesting. As keepers of the dead, the Auchenai would have had to rely on shadow magic and necromancy. Therefore, it is clear that the draenei would have a much, much different view on necromancy than the races of Azeroth, as the Auchenai were not only tolerated, but venerated and respected amongst the draenei.

The simple of it is this: the draenei do not see shadow as unnatural or even 'evil'. In draenei religious culture, shadow is an important part of the universe. This is made clear time and time again in dialogue.

"In the Light, we all cast shadows brother/sister." - Draenei Priest Trainers, World of WarCraft

"Creatures of the void are naturally chaotic. They are a necessary part of the universe, but they must be kept in check by the Light." - A'dal, World of WarCraft

"Regrettably, there is nothing that can be done to stop this cycle. It is a facet of the naaru condition - without the void, the Light cannot exist." - D'ore, World of WarCraft

Therefore, unlike with other Light-following cultures, the shadow is not necessarily something evil. It is natural and necessary, though something that must be "kept in check." Thus, for the Auchenai, whose roles are to tend to the spirits and cast out the shadows preventing them from moving on, the use of shadow is occasionally necessary.

All Auchenai, even those who do not use magic, have some experience with shadow magic. Every Auchenai initiate is made to imbibe a potion that forever opens their eyes to the spirit realm, allowing them to see lingering spirits within the material plane.

"Stranger... I was not forthright with you. Once you drink this potion, you will forever see into the world of the dead. This recipe that you drink of is a rite of initiation for all death priests of Auchindoun. Many go mad after its effects have taken hold. Seeing the dead is ... shocking." - Nitrin the Learned

It is not made immediately apparent that this is shadow magic, as it is alchemy. However, examining the abilities of Auchenai NPCs reveals this spell. Spiritual Sight. School: Shadow. Therefore, the rite of initiation of all Auchenai death priests, as it has been for centuries, long before they turned to evil, is shadow magic.

The Auchenai also possess the ability to summon spirits, and they were capable of this even before they went mad. Nemuraan, an Auchenai and the first draenei to meet the Alliance summoned an army of draenei spirits to aid the Alliance in rescuing Kurdran Wildhammer from the Shadow Council after the Expedition arrived in Outland. This form of necromancy was benevolent, working much like shaman necromancy--asking the spirits for aid after earning their allegiance through granting boons and reverence. This is the purpose of the Spirit Towers around Auchindoun:

"The draenei's custom required them to pay their respects at spirit towers at various times during the day. If you can help secure a tower during these times, you will help the spirits return to peace in Auchindoun." - Exorcist Vaisha, World of WarCraft

By paying their respects to the spirits at the spirit towers, the draenei earned their support, and thus were able to call on them for aid. This support was likely used for divination rather than combat (until the Orc War, of course), and would certainly have been the chief purpose of the death-speakers. Therefore, draenei necromancers, prior to the Orc War, actually served as "true" necromancers. As this form of necromancy is very similar to shamanism (and can even be seen as a form of shamanism), this could help explain why the krokul shaman were so readily accepted by the draenei later... it could have easily been seen as merely an expansion from communing with the spirits of the dead, to communing with the spirits of the elements--of all life.

More important than summoning spirits, however, is cleansing them. Remember, draenei deaths are traumatic. Angered spirits tend to linger. Soulpriests soothe these spirits in order to allow them to move on. The Auchenai used soul mirrors for this purpose. As seen in the Horde quest, What the Soul Sees, the soul mirrors are used to split the dark part of a spirit, which is then destroyed, allowing the spirit to pass on. Thus, the Auchenai used these soul mirrors to combat the darkness within a draenei's soul upon death. It can be assumed that the death-speakers use their abilities to locate the spirits with the most darkness in their hearts, the soulpriests use the soul mirrors to draw out this darkness, and the vindicators destroy this darkness, allowing the spirit to return to the Light. As A'dal said... shadow is necessary, but it must be kept in check by the Light. The Auchenai mixed Light and shadow in order to do the work of the Light, and bring peace to the spirits of the deceased.

This use of shadow and necromancy had a limit, though. The Auchenai did not believe in raising undead minions, nor in forcing the dead to serve them. They offered them boons, respected them, and aided them in passing on. The spirit of a soulpriest in Auchenai Crypts remarks on this fact, noting that the post-Orc War Auchenai have turned from everything they used to be.

"The Auchenai have turned their backs on everything we used to stand for. They've taken to raising the dead as unholy minions!

This cannot stand. Put the spirits back to rest, and massacre those responsible for raising them into undeath."
- Tormented Soulpriest, World of WarCraft

"The dead belong in the spirit realm. Just as you belong in this one." - Tormented Soulpriest, World of WarCraft

The Auchenai walked a fine line. Much like shamans, they used their necromancy to soothe and commune with spirits, aiding them in returning to the Light. They did not raise them as unholy minions, and if they ever did request their assistance they did so only with the permission of the spirits, rather than through forceful compulsion. Therefore, this shows that the draenei had a much more tolerant view of shadow magic and necromancy than many other races. When properly used, it could do the work of the Light, rather than be opposed to it. Only after the destruction of Auchindoun did the Auchenai begin abusing necromancy for evil purposes. Only this abuse of necromancy, the tormenting and raising of undead minions, was seen as evil by the draenei. Necromancy itself, however, along with shadow magic, does have a place in draenei culture. It simply must be used with restraint.

It is likely that, after the fall of the Auchenai, the shaman have taken over their role as caretakers of the dead.

D'ore and the Naaru Condition

Now we get to the scary, religious fundamentalism part of all of this. We know that the Naaru, when in a void state, attract the spirits of the dead to themselves as they regenerate, consuming their energies in order to reinvigorate themselves. We also know that the Auchenai rite of initiation allows them to see restless spirits.

This means, the Auchenai were perfectly aware of what D'ore was doing. And then built an entire mausoleum around him with his tomb in the center of it all. And then they summon draenei spirits and use soul mirrors to purge them of all darkness in their souls so that they might return to the Light in a purified state.

Think about that for a moment. Just think. Yes. They are sacrificing draenei spirits to D'ore. Returning to the Light means returning to D'ore, a naaru, a conduit of the Light. Auchindoun is not a graveyard... it is a slaughterhouse. The dead and dying are brought here, purified of any darkness in their souls, and then "fed" to D'ore to aid in his regeneration.

Now, while this sounds scary, it'd actually be seen as a point of glory to the draenei. Afterall, they would not have built such an impressive temple around the corpse of a naaru if it was seen as evil. No, Auchindoun is a monument to D'ore, and the dead are buried in proximity to him for the purpose of restoring him to strength. It is an honor to have one's spirit merge into a naaru. They are literally returning to the Light.

To quote Thelos' discourses on this subject:

"An interesting religious consequence of this one might consider is that for Draenei, being consumed by a Naaru who has fallen into a void state might not actually be so horrible. If by your death you can assist in restoring a Naaru to its Light state, in turn finding yourself merged with such a magnificent creature of Light; is that not an afterlife any Faithful would aspire to? In fact, may the Naaru not in essence by exactly this? A merging of thousands and thousands of souls? What if “Unity with the Light” should be taken as meaning “Unity with the Naaru” ? Is it a coincidence that the Draenei buried all of their dead so close to a recovering Naaru? Was Velen aware of the nature of the Void state? In his dealings with M'uru, he certainly seems like he is aware of the mechanisms of the Naaru. Might Velen have chosen to erect Auchindoun as a means to restore D'ore back to strength?" - Thelos, Draenic Discourses on the Inner Light

The Auchenai were the caretakers of the dead... but the specific dead they are taking care of above all else is D'ore. The Auchenai were purifying the spirits so that they could feed them to D'ore, accelerating his rebirth into the Light. And draenei culture, as devoted to the Light as they are, would have seen this as a good, wonderful thing. In fact, it is quite possible that the Auchenai summoned or otherwise lured the spirits of draenei from across Draenor to Auchindoun. Afterall, not every draenei is buried in Auchindoun. Perhaps draenei funeral rites involved cleansing the spirit of the recently departed, then beckoning it into a soul gem (Exarch Maladaar is described as using soul gems to contain spirits in the quest Wanted: The Exarch's Soul Gem), which would then be taken to Auchindoun and drawn out for D'ore?

Scary. But completely in line with the draenei's worship of the Light. It is possible, though, that only the Auchenai and a handful of other anchorites actually knew all the details of this. Even among the draenei, the commoners might find it hard to digest.

The Fall of the Auchenai

The fall of Auchindoun is somewhat confusing. It is at times stated that it was the summoning of Murmur that created the Bone Wastes, yet Murmur was only summoned a year before the reopening of the Dark Portal. The Bone Wastes were created long before then. Beyond the Dark Portal mentions that the Shadow Council performed another summoning, one that also caused an explosion. Therefore, there were at least two summonings, both resulting in massive explosions that destroyed much of Auchindoun.

Regardless, both of these explosions are only partially to blame for the fall of the Auchenai themselves. Their madness actually seems to stem from something much deeper.

Remember, that the draenei find death unsettling and unfortunate. It is a traumatic and terrible experience. The death priests were responsible with funeral rites and cleansing the spirits of any darkness within their souls. Suddenly, however, the Orc War comes along and, in the course of eight years, over 80% of the draenei race is wiped out. A race that never dies, suddenly has to deal with millions of dead. The Auchenai would have been very hardpressed over this period, even before the orcs invaded Auchindoun. Never before had the Auchenai had to deal with death on such a massive scale. It would have been physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausting.

Then, the orcs came. The Auchenai, too, were nearly wiped out, pushed from much of Auchindoun. A few did escape, and hid in the Auchenai Crypts. These few, the last of the Auchenai, had little if any contact with the outside world. For all they knew, they were the last of the draenei. After the twin explosions, most of Auchindoun itself was destroyed, leaving a ruin filled with the remnants of the Shadow Council and the remnants of the Auchenai, each claiming separate wings of the necropolis and each hostile to the other.

It is known that the Auchenai became a doom cult following the Orc War. That they were focused on the end of the world. The reason for this is never made clear, but this quote by Ixamos the Corrupted gives the best reasoning.

"The Auchenai accept that Outland is a dying world. Those who seek to restore it are mere fools!" - Ixamos the Corrupted

We know that the Auchenai were attempted to restore D'ore to the Light prior to their madness. This quote states that seeking to restore the world is pointless, that the world is dying. Therefore, they likely view their attempt to restore D'ore as having been equally pointless. They would have come to see their attempts to restore him as a failure, which resulted in them coming to accept the inevitable, to see the world and all of creation as doomed. After all the work they had done, D'ore never rose. D'ore never returned to the Light. For all of the spirits 'fed' to him, he never rose. The world was ending, and still D'ore slept. After all the terror and chaos that they had suffered, D'ore's inability to awaken was what finally made the Auchenai snap.

Why were they raising the undead in the Crypts? Not to undo the Orc War by returning their loved ones to life, they see no point in that. The world is doomed. The Light has faded. Darkness has won. There is no point in fighting it anymore. So, why were they raising the undead and tormenting and corrupting spirits? Perhaps it was to raise an undead army and use it to wipe out all life, to accelerate the ending of everything. To bring about the end of the world themselves, much like the Twilight's Hammer.

Or, perhaps, it was to sabotage D'ore's restoration. The Auchenai spent millennia tending to the spirits, cleansing them of darkness so they could return to the Light, to D'ore, and reawaken him. But he never awoke. Even when the world ended, he never awoke to save them. So, in their anger, they turned against him. Now they intentionally corrupt and violate the spirits, so that they are dark and twisted, instead of pure and whole. Perhaps they wished to turn D'ore into a voidgod, like M'uru, one that would consume them all and finally end everything.

Regardless of why they were raising undead, their madness almost certainly stems from their inability to restore D'ore. They had tried so long to restore him, but lost faith that he would ever be returned to the Light. That was what drove them mad, that was what turned them into a doom cult that sees the world as doomed and that there is no point in restoring it. They couldn't restore a naaru. Why should they bother trying to restore the world?

After this, the draenei turned against the Auchenai. This deliberate attempt to corrupt a naaru would have been seen as the foulest of evils, and raising the undead is evil on its own. It is likely that the draenei would have taken a much harder stance against shadow and necromancy after this, as the Auchenai had fallen so far from their once noble roots.


Last edited by Drustai on Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:36 am; edited 5 times in total
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Post by Thelos Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:12 am

Excellent post. Expertly constructed, soundly argued, and overal very well written and informative.

This was a long time coming, and I am really glad you decided to finally write it down. I greatly enjoyed reading it, and I hope many others will enjoy it, too.

*****/5
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Post by Skarain Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:16 am

*****/5
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Post by erwtenpeller Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:22 am

Epic stuff.
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Post by Lexgrad Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:29 pm

Silly squid.
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Post by Thelos Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:12 pm

It has been a little under a year since I started writing about Draenei spirituality. After a long beak, I wanted to celebrate the anniversary of this topic with a new, fully IC post, written by my character, on some core concepts to the Naaruvada. I hope you enjoy it!

The Third Discourse.

The mind is the void in which stars shine
The stars come and they go, but the void remains untouched
The void is inherently black and clear, and although its blackness and clarity can be obscured,
it can never be destroyed.
The stars are like hindrances and delusions that pollute the mind.
Because of the transient nature of these mental states, they cannot be said to be inherent part of the mind.
They may obscure the mind's inherent awareness and compassion
but those qualities are never absent.


This old Eredari poem reminds us of an ancient and profound fact: that the concepts of “Light”, “Shadow”, “Void” and “Darkness” are but mere shallow approximations of eternal ideas that far transcend the Eredari (now Draenei) intellect. Hopelessly we sieve the ancient Naaru-bestowed knowledge with our hapless fingers, foolishly grasping at the Eternal as it runs trough us. We can consider ourselves blessed if it leaves even a single trace; a single grain of sand would be more than plenty to enlighten the darkened mind that so desperately thirsts to be liberated from its ignorant dwelling in darkness.

The Darkness is not “Darkness”,
The Shadow is not “Shadow”
And the Light is certainly not “Light”.

Words and meaning; truth and mind – these are distinct and incommensurable. A mortal, limited mind can only hope to climb so far; all hopeless us Eredari are, pride forsaken, prostrating at the Naaru's shining crystal-feet that are no feet. Servants, not masters, are we. Thus we sing the Light's praise and beg for forgiveness for our ignorance.

The limited mind is in want of the Word. In grasping the inexpressible, we turn to the expressed; the Light can only be seen trough the lens of the World. The mind's eye would be blinded if it were to directly perceive the sublimity of the Divine. Thus it turns to the the suns in the skies and stars in the void that offer themselves as the First Parable. The star burns like the Faithful; it is live-giving without life-taking, it consumes only itself, not others – it enlightens without the need of light. It pierces the otherwise black void, the present parable for Darkness and evil – and fills a cold cosmos with Good and Compassion.

Yet, Light is not “Light” is not The Light. Every star must inevitable collapse and fade nothingness, whereas the most profoundly subtle and eternal love of the Light is inexhaustible and infinite, permeating every atom of the cosmos. Often the confusion is made between parable and identity; primitive tribes, taking their first strides in the Light, turn to their world's Star, understood and seen as a Sun as the source of Light. This is the origin of all idolatry. While Suns are indeed one of the Light's Great Inspirators, they are not the Light; and worship of the inspiration, rather than the inspiration, is sacrilegious and an offense to the most profound subtlety of the Light. Even the Naaru, who are, as Inspirators, even greater than the Suns still, ask not to be worshiped; there is nothing Holy but the Holy Light. Sermon, Scripture, Words and Song are also like this; Inspirators alike to the Light, but not the Light in themselves. They are the channel trough which the Light's Love flows; but one does not drink channels; one drinks water.

This brings us back to the poem. The Void and the Darkness, often fallaciously used interchangeably (though this is a matter to be addressed another time), are used as parables for Evil, opposite to the Good of the Light. When the Stars in a the endless Void of Space are taken as the model of the profound subtlety of the Light, this is of course an unavoidable consequence; but this is so only in this model, insofar it is applied to the spiritual life. The merits of this poem lie in the destruction of this model and the standard use of language in which we speak of and understand these most important matters.

In the poem, the “Void” is not the cold evil opposed to the Light, but rather the calm stillness trough which the Light is to be perceived: the immortal and pure Mind; the channel trough which the Water of Light flows. As the Doctrine of the Five Hindrances teach us, only a clear and unpolluted Mind has unmediated access to the Grace and Salvation of the Light; here not directly described but implied to be a perfect quiet Blackness. Understood as a Blackness, the star's lights are what confound our understanding of the Light; they distract us with their shining bright lights from a direct and undiluted appreciation of the Light, which offers us peace and serenity in all things.

This Destruction of the standard model in which we speak of Spirituality enriches our understanding of the Light; it allows us to pierce trough the confounding confusion of language and allows us a more direct understanding of the Higher Concepts of the Divine (which cannot be adequately put in words.) When we understand that it is possible and even prudent to speak and understand the Light as a void and the Darkness as lights, we will intuitively understand that words and scripture are arbitrary and cannot hope to fathom even an inkling of the deep profound subtlety of the Light. That is why we must remain ever ardent in our scrutiny; our fickle minds are restless and always in flux and in great want of stable and steady teachings. These teachings, unlike the Light, are rigid and temporally fixed, whereas the Divine is fluid and eternal and will always take on different forms unique to any given temporal and cultural situation.

It is often said that the Light speaks to us in our own voice. To an advanced people with no visual faculties, the Light would be described primarily in terms of Sound; in a people that lack both sight and hearing, it would be a scent; in a people that lack all three, it would be a feeling of touch; for a people that lack all of these sensory faculties, it would be a thought; and for a people that lack even that, the Light would simply be the Light; which is how the Light is experienced by the Naaru, the celestial beings closest and dearest to the Light.
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Post by Grufftoof Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:32 pm

Happy anniversary!

(also ... POINTS AND GASPS: "Paozi/Thelos", I saw!!!)
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Post by erwtenpeller Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:13 pm

Impressive
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Post by Thelos Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:54 am

I am very pleased that after a year I finally perfect the craft of oblique spiritual writing to the point that there are people radically misinterpeting what I write. Somebody asked me if this was writitng by Undead Thelos and if this meant that he was evil now.

I'll leave that up to your imagination.
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Post by erwtenpeller Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:23 pm

They see the words "shadow" and "void". Those words mean evil.

I also shall assume undead Thelos is evil.
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Post by Seranita Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:19 pm

he is Sad he even shoved monrena when she did her normal silly pranks Sad the old thelos would laugh *sniff* but still this was an awsome read Smile
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Post by Thelos Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:26 pm

Monrena wrote:he is Sad he even shoved monrena when she did her normal silly pranks Sad the old thelos would laugh *sniff* but still this was an awsome read Smile

There might be an alternative explenation for that, but I don't want to derail this thread by explaining and/or analysing my characters. You'll just have to find out for yourself.
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Post by Seranita Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:49 pm

oh naturaly monny does not know that was even thelos and i do plan on finding out trust me Smile *leaves the derailing*
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