Re: Tzeentch's Thread of Everchanging Topics

[Amaryl]

@Amaryl: Nithel did became very clear after the nice explanation ^^ but stating 'men and women are not the same' may have been a better way to put it than 'men and women are not equal'. Equal easily refers to ones worth and equality of rights, whereas 'not the same'... Well, nobody would argue with someone calling a dog and a cat not the same for example xD

Perhaps, but i'd classify that as semantical BS, because its based solely on the fact that the terms used seem insulting. Unless you actually didn't understand the meaning, then naturally an explanation is in order.

since Equal means "The Same". not equal, means "Not the Same". the severity of the in-equality is redundant in this case.

And as much as I understand your point, that the statement could be misinterpreted due to the context, she specifically added the addendum that she didn't mean that men and women should have unequal rights.


Eowale, i'm not saying it always works, but if you never get in that boss' his office you won't get a raise as often as people who do. Since I assume everyone works hard. As we were talking about people of the same qualifications as each-other. that said, i'm happy with my 30% raise i got last year

[Amaryl]

, but I'm a bit worried about whatever negative consequences may come as a result of that. Like gay rights. God, how I hate gays.

Can you clarify this? (before i jump to conclusions)

[Grufftoof]

Feminism =/= Equality. Not always, and not necessarily.

Men can be feminists. Bill Bailey sees himself as one:

"Three women walk into a pub and say, `Hooray, we've colonised a male-dominated joke format'"

Anyway, yeah. Some of feminism is about bridging the divide in society and social structure. Whilst some feminists push for stronger women in every regard. Radical feminism almost. That isn’t “about” equality. Nor is it about saying “women are better than men”. It’s more about saying they are different. Let’s celebrate the difference. And well, lets be radical, we need to be radical, we need to get angry to fix this shit!

ARE YOU WITH ME GIRLS?!

*burns bra*

Wait... erm...

All people are not equal. We might be “created that way” (if you believe that guff, hey, it’s a nice thought). We are all people though. The minute you stop treating people as people is the minute you stop acting with humanity. I’d veer away from the vilification and demonization of people there. Calling them monsters or evil. They aren’t. They’re just twats.

Plus, as a brief aside (Eowale). FGM isn’t “normally” (if such a thing can be “normal”) about stopping girls having sex per se. It’s about control. In it’s most disgusting (if there is a “most disgusting” when talking about this) it can be about the fusing of the what’s left of the vagina after some butcher has chopped away the labia and clitoris. This does mean girls/women are then controlled (literally cut open again) in order to have sex or to give birth. It’s also (and perhaps more commonly so) used as a means to stop women getting feeling during sex through clitoral/labial stimulation. Just a clarification of wording. And I guess letting people know just how fucking barbaric this stuff is.

As for India, I’d miss it. Can we not remove it from the Earth?

I came a bit late to all this...

So here's a joke:

What did one ocean say to the other ocean?

Spoiler:

[Shaelyssa]

Could you possibly imagine a world with no paneer, no chapati, no samosas, no curry, no biryani, NO DAL?!?!? I'm so glad that one of my best friend's mom is Indian and also just so happens to THE BEST cook in the whole entire world.

And I meant nothing by it, Amaryl lol. It was my own attempt of trying to be funny.

[Grufftoof]

And I meant nothing by it, Amaryl lol. It was my own attempt of trying to be funny.

Damn, it was a joke? Just when I'd put my very favourite gay-bashing steel toe-capped boots on.

I'll have to kick some dirty towelhead instead. If only there was one around here...

AHA!

*boots Shae*

[Eowale]

Spoiler:

Maybe I spoke rashly, truly. As you found my comment that I don't like the cultures in several countries insulting, you -are- offended, hence why I apologised. There's uncivilized people in all countries in this world. While I really don't give a fuck about what those four billion people think of me or my own culture, I still feel sorry for them for living in a country where people are discriminated/not entitled to their own religion/political opinion/sexuality. What I see as civilized, might be barbaric in other countries. I see being 'civilized', where you're entitled to your own opinion. Which you're not in the countries I listed, which sucks, really.

Come on, wearing hotpants and shortsleeved shirt is being uncivilized? Im not going to wear a jacket and a thick pair of jeans just 'cause people think it's uncivilzed, if it's warm I'll wear what I feel best in. Im not going to suffocate in my winter clothes under the searing sun just 'cause of some strange unwritten social rule, fuck that. If the people arn't going to accept that people from other countries are diffrent, why do you think those people would accept the other countries social rules? By force? Someone walking up to them, yelling in broken english that it's improper? I think they need to get with the times.

I never claimed equality, no discrimination, no prejudice and liberty to be western ideals, that's just common knowledge for any world leader (Except a communist dictatorship, perhaps). Those are common in the West because we enforce those ideals, since they are what democracy is about (partly, atleast).

Like gay rights. God, how I hate gays.

This is exactly what I think is wrong. Homosexuality should not be a reason to deny them their liberty, or just give them a stamp to the face that says "Gay, not valuable". You say that you want equality and no discrimination/prejudice? You're being a hypocrite right there by saying that you hate gays.

[Valerias]

I actually feel badly that this thread is now making me giggle incessantly. But it is. Oh dear.

[Emrys]

@Amaryl: To be honest, it is more than emotional bullshit. When looking up the definition of the term 'equal' you will find descriptions such as 'equal in value' or even about having equal rights, it just as much a linguistic difference.

a selection from it's defenition:
Equal:
1. Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.
3.
a. Having the same privileges, status, or rights: equal before the law.
The rest of it

Do no get me wrong, I did understand what Nithel meant, and I was not offended by the use of the word in any way, but it is more than just emotional bullshit, it is a defined linguistic nuance.

[Amaryl]

@Amaryl: To be honest, it is more than emotional bullshit. When looking up the definition of the term 'equal' you will find descriptions such as 'equal in value' or even about having equal rights, it just as much a linguistic difference.

a selection from it's defenition:
Equal:
1. Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.
3.
a. Having the same privileges, status, or rights: equal before the law.
The rest of it

Do no get me wrong, I did understand what Nithel meant, and I was not offended by the use of the word in any way, but it is more than just emotional bullshit, it is a defined linguistic nuance.

4.
a. Having the requisite qualities, such as strength or ability, for a task or situation: "

Hence Semantical BS (not emotional, semantical)

[Shaelyssa]

The BBC Tribal Wives documentary thing had a bit on female circumcision, I think. But there was this other documentary I watched that goes into it a bit more in depth than Tribal Wives but it was a couple of years ago now I think and I forgot its name hmmm.



The other Tribal Wives stuff is on youtube too. They're really interesting, go go go watch them. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different tribes in Africa and many have their own traditions.

And gruff, it's ok, I'm just glad you didn't call me a diaper head :(. Feel free to kick me as much as you want too. This wouldn't be the first time a cruel white overlord has abused me hurhurhur ;)

[Grufftoof]

...because we enforce those ideals...

Random snippy quote. Simply because we enforce something, doesn't make it The Truth, The Right.

Whilst I definitely agree that some fundamentals should be inherent to mankind, they are sadly not.

But what gives people the right to state something "fuck you" to someone's social ideals, claiming them to be uncivilized?

"If the people arn't going to accept that people from other countries are diffrent"

Which goes both ways. Right?

Two parrots on a perch. One turns to the other and says...

Spoiler:

[Amaryl]

oeh, Shae likes to be abused by cruel white men.

Mhm..

[Emrys]

@Amaryl: Sementical, my bad. And 'the same abilities' is still argueable language would be a bland thing if all differences in wordings were set aside as bullshit ^^ just as your own example of 'sementical' and 'emotional', the words are alike, but not identical in use and meaning

[Shaelyssa]

I never claimed equality, no discrimination, no prejudice and liberty to be western ideals

I know haha, sorry. I was just speaking generally. I tend to ramble a lot. It's just one of my many uncivilized flaws :p.

Also, I'm curious why you included Korea in "The List". I don't know if you mean North or South, but South Korea is definitely one of the more progressive nations in Asia!!

And of course you shouldn't wear winter clothing in the heat, but you should still cover up, especially because you're a white pale-skinned devil so you're very prone to sunburning, if you're not properly protected that is. :p Light, loose fitting clothing that covers up is the best thing to wear when the sun is really, really strong. You should buy a dishdasha :D. They look like they'd be really uncomfortable in the heat but they're actually great at keeping you cool. Although on second thought, maybe shorts and sleeveless shirts are the way to go. You'd probably get spat at a lot so that'd also keep you cool ... you know, just like how sweat keeps you cool!!!

And I already said I was kidding about the gay thing!!! Tsh don't they teach you people how to read?! Probably too busy doing drugs, drinking alcohol and sleeping around, I bet tsk tsk tsk

[Thelos]

I consider anyone who cannot recite the lyrics of the opening song to the first season of the pokémon anime (dub of course) series to be uncivilized.

True story.

I want to be, the very best...

[Shaelyssa]

What did one ocean say to the other ocean?

Spoiler:

What did the tampon say to the dildo?

Spoiler:

[Amaryl]

@Amaryl: Sementical, my bad. And 'the same abilities' is still argueable language would be a bland thing if all differences in wordings were set aside as bullshit ^^ just as your own example of 'sementical' and 'emotional', the words are alike, but not identical in use and meaning

Well firstly,There's a vast difference between semantical and emotional.

I argued that your argument based on semantics, came from an emotional place (which you can counter ofcourse)

But the fact remains, that you're arguing the lack of Nithel's "Linguistic Nuance" with in my eyes BS regarding the meaning of different words. And claimed she didn't have enough nuance in her sentence, and argued that she should use words like "not the same" instead of "equal" which in my eyes is just a "softer" Term to describe the same thing. Considering using the free-dic link you provided the term Equal is more then adequate, to what she was trying to say.

Now But Not only did Nithy only say:

Men and women aren't equal. Nor should they ever be considered equal.

(Which can indeed be interpreted differently depending on context, and your linguistic nuance, argument could be applicable.

She specifically added

Men and women aren't equal. Nor should they ever be considered equal.That's not the point. The point is that both sexes have the same rights in the same situations.

Clearly specifying the fact that she wasn't talking about "Rights"

Which brings me back to the fact that you advocated the use of a "Softer" Term of equality with the exact same meaning as Nithel used. Which is completely redundant, and thus I qualify it as Semantical BS.

Now, why you'd prefer a softer term, I can only assume its because the term equality feels too confrontational, or insulting, even when you're viewing it in the correct context. since it can't be attributed to a lack of linguistic nuance. But that's a refutable argument if i'm wrong


PS: God Its silly, arguing about semantics... but stupid philosophy students made me getting used to this >.>

Edit: what's the difference between men and women?

Spoiler:

[Yarnaat]

I consider anyone who cannot recite the lyrics of the opening song to the first season of the pokémon anime (dub of course) series to be uncivilized.

True story.

I want to be, the very best...

I'm not uncivilized!

[Thelos]

PS: God Its silly, arguing about semantics... but stupid philosophy students made me getting used to this >.>

I would have hoped that some of those students would also have remarked that the meaning of words goes beyond mere semantics i.e context and connotations.

Edit: The point being of course that even if both words denote the exact same phenomenon on the semantical level, it is quite obvious they carry a different meaning trough their connotations, as equal is very often used in a context of talking about rights, and the phrase "[x] and [y] are not equal" is almost always used to advocate the superiority of [x] over [y].

[Amaryl]

PS: God Its silly, arguing about semantics... but stupid philosophy students made me getting used to this >.>

I would have hoped that some of those students would also have remarked that the meaning of words goes beyond mere semantics i.e context and connotations.

"mere semantics" ?

Semantics is finding out what a word means. which includes context and connotations.

saying it goes beyond is not understanding the word semantic.. means you're only using a very narrow view of the word, and lol

(this is a trap right?)

Edit: reread my argument Thelos, all that crap is included.

[Shaelyssa]

This is why I suggested watching Pocahontas btw:

[Thelos]

"mere semantics" ?

Semantics is finding out what a word means. which includes context and connotations.

saying it goes beyond is not understanding the word semantic.. means you're only using a very narrow view of the word, and lol

(this is a trap right?)

Actually, yes, I'm using the narrowest view of the word, or atomic semantics, which assumes that the semantics of a word can be solely derived from the word as taken on its own independant of any context or connotations. I was using this view of the word since people were throwing dictionairy definitions at eachother. I can only make sense of such a statement if this is the view of the word we were using in the conversation.

Let's take a step back.

Well firstly,There's a vast difference between semantical and emotional.

This is what I chiefly used. By seperating emotional connotations one might have with a word from its semantics it seemed to me you were implying you were using a narrow sense of the word also.

And;

Which brings me back to the fact that you advocated the use of a "Softer" Term of equality with the exact same meaning as Nithel used. Which is completely redundant, and thus I qualify it as Semantical BS.

This is a denial of the signifiance of the difference between "Softer" and "Harder" tems; you might perhaps argue that both words used had the same semantical content, but by one person requesting a nuance, it is pretty obvious the words have a different meaning. Whether this meaning was intended by the person who first used the word is completely irrelevant to this. The different connotations a "Harder" word has can radically alter its meaning (or receptance if you prefer), even if one might argue the semantical content (or the phenomenon the word is supposed to denote) is exactly identical, so a call for nuance is in my opinion completely warranted. Calling it "Semantical BS" is a bit insensetive to the vastly different impact the two words used can have on the flow of a conversation.

Which brings me back to the fact that you advocated the use of a "Softer" Term of equality with the exact same meaning as Nithel used. Which is completely redundant, and thus I qualify it as Semantical BS.

Its not redundant since it is pretty obvious that "Are different" is preferable in this context to "Are not equals" would be the better choice to express that which both authors wanted to express. One expression means something different from the other because of the connotations, regardless of any author intention, so a call for nuance and adopting a different word is completely warranted, since both phrases mean something different even though their denotation may be identical. That's totally a linguistic thing, or a semantical thing if you prefer.

Now, why you'd prefer a softer term, I can only assume its because the term equality feels too confrontational, or insulting, even when you're viewing it in the correct context. since it can't be attributed to a lack of linguistic nuance

Yes it can.

---


And yes it totally was a trap since I felt like spouting some bullshit of my own in between reading bullshit of others, desperately trying to sound smrt

[Kristeas Sunbinder]

Come on, wearing hotpants and shortsleeved shirt is being uncivilized? Im not going to wear a jacket and a thick pair of jeans just 'cause people think it's uncivilzed, if it's warm I'll wear what I feel best in. Im not going to suffocate in my winter clothes under the searing sun just 'cause of some strange unwritten social rule, fuck that. If the people arn't going to accept that people from other countries are diffrent, why do you think those people would accept the other countries social rules? By force? Someone walking up to them, yelling in broken english that it's improper? I think they need to get with the times.

There is such a thing as being a good guest when visiting a different country.
It starts with wanting to wear the same things as back where you come from, then not taking time to learn (or stopping family members from learning) the language and ends with introducing the sharia

Just the other day I read that apparently dutch judges already apply sharia when both sides accept it and there is no dutch law that can be applied.

[Shaelyssa]

Ugh sharia law ... even that isn't properly applied here in Kuwait a lot of the time

[Eowale]

It's so fun how linking two videos can give a discussion first from domestic violence, to human rights, to equal rights between males and females to what 'civilized' mean.

In other news.

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