Re: Tzeentch's Thread of Everchanging Topics

[Morinth]

... I often offer to carry my own stuff unless it's causing me physical pain, at which point I don't mind sharing.

Also, my cooking is a surefire way to DIE.

[Kristeas Sunbinder]

BBQ is the way I can cook the most times of meats.

And I make great nacho's, if I do say so myself.

[Ave/Sariella]

[Eowale]

@Eowale: You mentioned not being able to imagine a man mutilating a woman when she wants a divorce, for example. Sadly, that's not quite the case. I remember this one story about a British model I believe, whom had acid thrown into her face for braking up with her boyfriend. It made my stomach turn. And though this may be a (luckily) rare example in the western world as far as I know, in countries like India, women get set on fire and all other kinds of nasty things by their husbands or husbands to be. I refuse to show sources or pictures of these cases, since they're highly unpleasant to look at, but you can always google it yourself if you are curious. It is all so horrible cringeworthy, as is cutting off a man's penis. You have to be sick in the head to do such a thing.

And 'get back into the kitchen' does not even remotely measure up to this ofcourse, especially since I can't imagine any remotely civilized man using it as anything other than a joke.

As much as I am disgusted by the boyfriend, it's still not the same thing. Getting acid in your face is completely diffrent. If I got my cock cut off, I'd do a shotgun-mouthwash, Kurt Cobain style.
Can you actually imagine a man cutting a womans breasts off? Or any part of her vagina? Then have five mindless idiots on a talk-show laugh and make fun of the woman? I sure can't, men are above that. And I -did- say in any 'civilized' country, India is far from civilized as far as I know. They still live in 2000 years B.C. and are like "NO FUCK YOU, WOMEN ARE TRASH!" like a bunch of cackling retards with a cock up their arse.. It's that part of the world that no-one would miss, to be honest. Middle-east, India, Korea, all those countries in Asia with brainwashed religious fanatics, women-surpressing cuntfaces. Not to mention communism. I hate that shit.

When it comes to the 'get back in the kitchen'-joke, both me and my girlfriend use it to eachother. Mainly cause we both cook the food either by ourselves or together. I'd -never- say that seriously to her, and I can't think of anyone that even would. But, the missus made me sammiches, so Im happy
(Though I was forced to do the dishes <_< >_>)

[Lyniath]

I went on holiday to Asia the other year, and in malaysia we saw a woman jet-skiing with her kids in a full burkha. There's a problem in that men there have essentially brainwashed women to be like "oh we KNOW we're inferior" so they don't see a problem in the society.

[Amaryl]

But lets not forget that woman that ripped a guy's balls off, with her hand because she thought the man was sleeping around...

with her bloody hands...

poor balls...

just saying domestic abuse really isn't only linked to men.
heck its usually worse when women do it, since there's less system in place to help the poor guy.

[Eowale]

But lets not forget that woman that ripped a guy's balls off, with her hand because she thought the man was sleeping around...

with her bloody hands...

poor balls...

just saying domestic abuse really isn't only linked to men.
heck its usually worse when women do it, since there's less system in place to help the poor guy.

Dear god, what? Her HANDS?! Who even does that? Oh fuck my life, the mental image. What the fuck, Im losing faith in humanity. Not that I had much to begin with, but oh well.

I went on holiday to Asia the other year, and in malaysia we saw a woman jet-skiing with her kids in a full burkha. There's a problem in that men there have essentially brainwashed women to be like "oh we KNOW we're inferior" so they don't see a problem in the society.

I know, right? I went to Tanzania in South-eastern Africa, the females were literally doing all the job around the public market, or in the streets, selling their cheap shit they buy for like a cent then sell it for like two euro's each. The men were only in charge of carrying the shit they sell to the market, from their cars.
Not only that, but the males were drooling over my two female cousins like if they were two pieces of meat. Sure, they were wearing hotpants and sleeveless shirts, but what the hell, the sun was frying us white tourists alive. I even had to go as far to push away two males because they were trying to grope them in the -streets-, in a fucking public place. Me, my brother and my two cousins had to act as bodyguards from time to time. The females did not even seem to care the way the males acted towards my cousins, or how they acted towards other females in the streets. UN Bill of Human Rights, my arse, not groping females in a public street is just proper social manners.

[Nithel]

Men and women aren't equal. Nor should they ever be considered equal. That's not the point. The point is that both sexes have the same rights in the same situations.

heck its usually worse when women do it, since there's less system in place to help the poor guy.

This is unfortunatly very true. There's not a single safehouse or institution in Belgium to help abused men.. I don't even think police would take it seriously.

[Eowale]

Men and women aren't equal. Nor should they ever be considered equal. That's not the point. The point is that both sexes have the same rights in the same situations.

Depends on how you mean that they are not equal. As Humans? Yes. As people? Yes. Crime/job-wise? No.

[Valerias]

To enter the debate a bit late, I think Kristeas nailed it on the head when he said that men's bad behaviour doesn't give women the right to behave equally badly.

Whatever gender one is, there are going to be abusive situations and unhealthy relationships - yes, these may take different forms and women are often the easier victims, but each person is responsible for their own actions. There's no 'gender war' - it's more a conflict between those who care to respect their fellow humans and those who are going to be selfish shits and take advantage of each other.

And when it comes down to it, people are imperfect. There's going to be a lot of horrible things happening, but that doesn't take away from the capability that both men and women have to respect and encourage each other (especially in relationships) and to do something positive.

[Eowale]

Men's bad behaviour doesn't give women the right to behave equally badly.
Each person is responsible for their own actions.
There's no 'gender war' - it's more a conflict between those who care to respect their fellow humans and those who are going to be selfish shits and take advantage of each other.
People are imperfect.

I think these four quotes pretty much sums it up, tbh.

[Nithel]

They aren't equal as humans. Men and women aren't built the same. I know it's a very nuanced difference, but it's one of the principles of law. People aren't the same. I'm not equal to you. But we share the same rights in the same situations.

I'll give a few examples:
A woman gets paid maternity leave when a man doesn't in Belgium. These are different rights in a different situation. (A man doesn't give birth.) And thus they are acceptable.

A woman earning less than a man in the same position. These are different rights in the same situation and thus unacceptable.

A man not getting the right to take care of his children after a divorce because the judge is biased towards mothers. This are different rights in the same situation and thus unacceptable.

A man who gets a job easier in construction because male body types are generally better suited for heavy work. Different rights, different situation. Thus acceptable.

[Shaelyssa]

And I -did- say in any 'civilized' country, India is far from civilized as far as I know. They still live in 2000 years B.C. and are like "NO FUCK YOU, WOMEN ARE TRASH!" like a bunch of cackling retards with a cock up their arse.. It's that part of the world that no-one would miss, to be honest. Middle-east, India, Korea, all those countries in Asia with brainwashed religious fanatics, women-surpressing cuntfaces. Not to mention communism. I hate that shit.

I sure do love me a warm cup of ignorance in the morning :D.

Can you actually imagine a man cutting a womans breasts off? Or any part of her vagina?

Yes, it's called female circumcision.

Emrys, "bride burning" in India is outlawed at least, and it's on the decline as well thankfully, last I heard! :)

[Darilas]

I recently saw the biopic of Waris Dirie. Horrifying. *shivers*

[Eowale]

I sure do love me a warm cup of ignorance in the morning .
Yes, it's called female circumcision.

I apologise, I did not mean to offend you. The female genital mutilation breaks the bill of Human Rights, hence why I said 'civilized' country. Im not implying that -all- inhabitants in a country which is uncivilzed, are not civilized, am I now? The FGM has been outlawed and shunned upon in the western countries, since it -is- a brutal and barbaric way to stop a woman from having sex.
The point still remains, though. FGM aside, -where- would you find a man willingly cutting a womans cunt up if she'd ask for a divorce? The FGM is forced upon the girl when she goes through puberty, by her parents. Not by her husband. Yes, parents are allowed to make decisions over their children, but what the fuck, that's above their authority. Mutilating their own daughter is absolutely fubar.

They aren't equal as humans. Men and women aren't built the same. I know it's a very nuanced difference, but it's one of the principles of law. People aren't the same. I'm not equal to you. But we share the same rights in the same situations.

I'll give a few examples:
A woman gets paid maternity leave when a man doesn't in Belgium. These are different rights in a different situation. (A man doesn't give birth.) And thus they are acceptable.

A woman earning less than a man in the same position. These are different rights in the same situation and thus unacceptable.

A man not getting the right to take care of his children after a divorce because the judge is biased towards mothers. This are different rights in the same situation and thus unacceptable.

A man who gets a job easier in construction because male body types are generally better suited for heavy work. Different rights, different situation. Thus acceptable.

I've already gone through the job question. Humans are equal, just because some douchebag boss in a company gives more money to a man than a woman, doesn't make them unequal as human beings, it just proves that there are assholes in this world. A judge not letting the man see his own children, which is his right as a father and a human, just proves that people believe that only women can raise children (What a load of horseshit). A man getting a job easier at a construction site is not his own fault, merely the company wanting strong workers that wont hurt themselves and their fellow workers. Males are suited for heavy work, yes, but does that make women less human or does it make them less equal to men? No. While men are better at some things, women are better at others. It's been proved that women are better as teachers, for example. Since their mental system is built diffrently. And because women are often smarter than men, as they mature faster and learn easier.

As a human being, you -are- equal to me. I am not worth more than -you- are, nor visa versa. Men and women being built diffrent doesn't make either gender less human.

[Valerias]

Oh my, I got quoted.

I think when Nithel is using the word 'equal' though she isn't talking about 'human rights,' she's saying that men and women are not 'the same,' thus they are treated differently via the examples she's given.

[Eowale]

One should say what one means!
And yes, you got quoted. Feel the quotation pain.

[Valerias]

Language is difficult - especially when translating from not-one's-native-language, the nuances can be all fucked up... uh but that's an entirely different, if interesting, topic.

And I was honoured to be quoted :')

[Nithel]

Yus! Annie, exactly what I meant ^^

Sorry if my meaning got lost in the translation.

[Eowale]

It's 'kay, I just enjoy a good discussion.. And I don't have anything better to do whilst being sick.
I know your pain, translating from Swedish --> English isn't the easiest thing, since the grammar fucks up all the time.

[Amaryl]

One should say what one means!
And yes, you got quoted. Feel the quotation pain.

And here i thought Nithy was rather clear

Men and women aren't equal. Nor should they ever be considered equal. That's not the point. The point is that both sexes have the same rights in the same situations.

But regarding the pay-structure.

I will happily admit that on average, there is a pay discrepancy between women and men. But on the other hand, look at men, working in the same positions, they don't all make the same amount of money either. One striking example is the rather low wages, engineers and the like have in comparison with "Managers" of other businesses.

Part of how much you earn in a position, strongly comes from your ability to negotiate it. from your ability to be brash, confident, and arrogant in the room, and demand for more pay.

Same with people who get the most raises, they're the ones that actually walk into the boss' office and demand for one. Not the ones that wait and diligently do their jobs until the boss thinks they deserve one.

and maybe, maybe, that's a big part of the pay-discrepancy between men and women, and not just bollocks.

[Eowale]

While I agree on what Amaryl said, my father worked his way to where he is now. He just now got a 10% raise from his normal pay because he's been working overtime for almost half a year, in essence not having any spare time at all. He wakes up at 06:00 AM, goes up, shower, coffe, breakfast, away to the train. And then he comes home around 18-19:00 PM. I have high respect for him, since it takes a strong backbone for doing that for soon five years. Going up to the boss and demanding higher pay isn't always the way to go, since proving yourself to be a hardworking person that wants the best for the company is probably the best way to go. Hey, five years ago he was just an employee, sorting papers, now he's one of the lead in the Environmental Protection Agency, making decisions on how many of that and that animal that should live, how to protect certain animals, dealing with animal cruelty, how many wolves/bears are allowed to get shot etc.

My mother is a teacher, and she's a great teacher at that. But, she's had alot of medical issues concerning her knees. The cartilage that are placed between the knees and her leg-bones have been grinded down, and the cartilage at her ankles have done the same. She's done several surgeries to get herself better, limping around with crutches just a few weeks after the surgury on her knees to work. She loves her work, but she knows she has medical difficulties, hence why she doesn't demand more pay. I myself think she deserves more, because she works with broken down legs. All the surgeries have made her give up skiing, which has been her hobby since she was just a little kid.

The circumstances are always diffrent, don't give me that women and men are better or worse at anything.

[Emrys]

@Amaryl: Nithel did became very clear after the nice explanation ^^ but stating 'men and women are not the same' may have been a better way to put it than 'men and women are not equal'. Equal easily refers to ones worth and equality of rights, whereas 'not the same'... Well, nobody would argue with someone calling a dog and a cat not the same for example xD

[Kristeas Sunbinder]

@Amaryl: Nithel did became very clear after the nice explanation ^^ but stating 'men and women are not the same' may have been a better way to put it than 'men and women are not equal'. Equal easily refers to ones worth and equality of rights, whereas 'not the same'... Well, nobody would argue with someone calling a dog and a cat not the same for example xD

[Shaelyssa]

You don't have to apologize to me, Eowale, I wasn't offended. But your comment about how the "Middle-east, India, Korea, all those countries in Asia with brainwashed religious fanatics, women-surpressing cuntfaces [is] that part of the world that no-one would miss" is still an extremely insulting and misguided remark, and I would go so far as to call it bigoted. You may not be directly saying that all Middle Easterners, all Indians, all Koreans, and all other Asians in general uncivilized, but by saying where they come from is uncivilized, you are indirectly calling the inhabitants uncivilized as well. Also, you managed to insult about 4 billion(?) people in one tiny, little statement. Well done. :p

But more to the point, what do you mean by "civilized"? What is the criteria for it? Who gets to decide it? (I asked Antistia the same thing a few days ago :p.) It's a very relative concept, and in reality, objective "civilizedness" does not even exist.

And just to provide you with a little perspective, I am going to draw a little contrast for you now. (Alternatively, go watch Pocahontas.) I don't know how things are like in Tanzania, but if you had gone on holiday to the Middle East, and your cousins were wearing shorts and a sleeveless top, they would be considered "uncivilized" by the general population here. On a slightly unrelated note, if you're going to go on holiday anywhere, you probably should research the cultural norms of that country a little bit beforehand. I think it'd be culturally insensitive of anyone not to at least loosely adhere to whatever those norms are in that country they're visiting. For example, I wouldn't go parading around Israel with a giant swastika plastered to my chest. And heck, I'm a guy and even I get into trouble for wearing shorts here sometimes.

I am the last person who would defend some of the Middle Eastern and religious traditions and ideals observed here, but going so far as to call them uncivilized is blatantly rude and culturally insensitive, and also ignorant when you're very much misinformed. Just because another society has ideals that are different than yours and you might not necessarily agree with, it does not automatically mean your society is better and more advanced than the other.

While I really do not like some of the views people have here at all, personally, I am not really sure if want the Middle East to become "Westernized", although that is already happening here in some parts of the Persian Gulf at least. What I want is equality, no discrimination and no prejudice, and more civil liberties: these things are not "Western" ideals. They may be common in the West but they are not necessarily of "Western" origin. Of course, bringing about the things I want to see happen here can definitely be achieved through Westernization :p, but I'm a bit worried about whatever negative consequences may come as a result of that. Like gay rights. God, how I hate gays.

And I'm starting to ramble and go off a tangent now so I'll just quiet down now lol...

Buuuuuuttt just one last thing ...

There was a case here a few years ago where a Kuwaiti man who married an American had his children taken away from him. They got married in the states, had two kids there, and then decided to move to Kuwait. They later got a divorce and his wife returned to America. A few years later, she demanded that her kids be returned to her and because they were born in the states and were American citizens, the US Embassy here just picked up the kids after school and flew them off to the states without even informing the father, let alone holding some sort of custody trial.

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