Shadow magic, Say whaaat?

Saevir wrote:Being less sleepy, I can leave another comment.

In perfect honesty, I think trying make an ordered system into which all the different kinds of magic will fit into is an attempt at something that none of it was ever intended or designed to accomplish. Blizzard makes these things up as they need them [...] and it's blind optimism to think that writers have set in stone how magic actually functions in the setting.

The meaning that is inherent in a fictional universe does not stop at its creator's intention. The author, or in this case the creator, more creates more meaning unknowingly than he does so knowingly. I'd be wary about trying to equal the author's intention with the meaning of the Universe, especially because Blizzard is not a single author but a mess of different ones with various conflicting ideals and goals.

Saevir wrote:(case in point: Monks, obviously wielding some kind of supernatural force, but completely different from everything else we've seen so far)

And this is why roleplaying a Pandaren sage is going to be awesome.

The setting: Thelos has traveled to an ancient monestary a top of a snowy peak somewhere in a desolate corner of Pandaria. There, the uninitiated are asked to prepare a dish for the Master. Only then will he recieve them in his temple.

Thelos: O wise and ancient Master, I beseech thee. What is the nature of the Kosmos; how do Shadow and Light relate to eachother, and how does the mortal relate to these awesome powers we cannot understand?
Thelos offers his dish to the Pandaren Master.
The Pandaren Master takes the dish and loudly slurps some noodles, chewing with exegerrated jaw movements, savoring the taste.
Pandaren Master: The Good life is like a well prepared dish. Not every sauce, topping or spice fits every meal. For example, you have added too much salt to these noodles, while you should have been using more pepper.
Thelos: ...I see! I understand now! I see everything! The pepper is the Shadow, the salt is the Light; we must use both in harmony to reach enlightenment! I understand everything! Shadow and Light are one! There is only-
Pandaren Master: What are you talking about, chubby? I was just asking you to pass me the pepper! DOHOHOHOHOHOHO

Aleric wrote:Do you mean like fire bolt would really be Destructive Bolt with the subtype fire?

No. A firebolt is a firebolt. It's just constructed from a different magical source; but the result is similar.
The source will influence the result though; Fel often causes fire to burn green, holy fire has the ability to only be harmful to your opponents, etc.

A good amount of the ingame npc monks belong to Light related orders. One of them actively uses Light magic.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:A good amount of the ingame npc monks belong to Light related orders. One of them actively uses Light magic.

I doubt those are the martial arts type of monk..

They use such skills as:
Flurry of Blows and Pummel (complimented by Divine Shield and Final Meditation)
Kick and Trash. (no holy magic)
Counter Kick, Cyclone Strike, Overpower (complimented by summoning undead)

I must be mistaken then. If Monks -do- exsist inside Azeroth, then I very much doubt it's a very well mastered or well known art. The Pandarian are suppose to be the race that teaches it.

Off-topic, back to shadow talk.

Aishling wrote:Arcane = Stable magic,
Fel = Unstable magic.

Arcane is not that much better I fear...

http://www.wowpedia.org/Arcane

Vectoria wrote:I must be mistaken then. If Monks -do- exsist inside Azeroth, then I very much doubt it's a very well mastered or well known art. The Pandarian are suppose to be the race that teaches it.

Off-topic, back to shadow talk.

This is because Metzen and Blizzard fail at their own lore.

There are Auchenai Monks amongst the draenei in Auchindoun, using standard monk melee focus.

Drustai wrote:This is because Metzen and Blizzard fail at their own lore.

I wouldn't say that, exactly. It's more like we as a community expect more from them then they feel is necessary to provide the optimum gaming experience for a lot of people.

Besides, if anything, you should be glad. These "holes" in the lore can drive a lot of community-created sidelore and stories. Something I personally am thankful for. You don't have to play wow with an encyclopedia to successfully roleplay, sometimes you can just "wing it" and things'll still make plenty of sense.

Vectoria wrote:Well, this is all definitely food for thought.

Might be interesting for someone to write up the exact distinguishable differences between a Warlock, a Death Knight and a Shadow priest: When it comes down to how they are able to weave said magic.

Yes.

They each use different styles of spellcasting, and spells designed for different things. Just because the energy is the same, does not mean that the spells need to be. Magic has nearly unlimited potential. The energy doesn't have to be different just so the classes are.

Warlocks use arcane or divine type spellcasting. Shadowpriests use divine type. Death knights use runecasting (which is a type of arcane magic).

Arcane spellcasting: Magic of intellect and knowledge. Patterns, shapes, numbers, words. All about how cosmic forces align and how to take advantage of these alignments. You draw upon specific types of energy for specific spells, but ultimately it is about how you shape that energy that determines its affect.

Runecasting: Subtype of arcane magic, this is also magic of intellect and knowledge. Again, relies on patterns and shapes. Different in that it focuses entirely on the patterns--namely, natural patterns of the ley lines. This is arcane magic without the corruption, but also without the variety of spells. Like arcane, I see the type of energy you put into the pattern as changing the spell in some minor way.

Divine spellcasting: Magic of spirit and faith. Whereas will plays a part into arcane magic, it is only a minor focus of it. With divine spellcasting, will and faith are the core components. Your belief determines your reality, or, alternatively, you beseech another spirit, and their believe will alter your reality for you.


Warlocks use either arcane or divine type spellcasting. That is, their magic can either be based on patterns, shapes, numbers, words, etc, like a mage. They just infuse their spells with fel energy, which makes them fel magic. Warlocks can also use divine type spellcasting though--demon worship. In that, they prostrate themselves to a demonic entity for the purpose of their magic.

Death Knights use runecasting. They do not know how to truly wield magic, instead they draw mana (soul energy) into their runeblades, then pour that energy into the runic patterns on their blades, which causes the spells to manifest.

Shadowpriests use divine spellcasting. That means their faith and willpower (much more willpower in the case of shadowpriest, but also faith in themselves). As their faith is in themselves, their own selfish desire for power, their spells manifest as shadow energy, which is the energy of selfish personal desire.


Some spells between the three are similar. But the means are quite different. Just because all use the same type of energy does not mean they are all exactly the same.

Saevir wrote:Being less sleepy, I can leave another comment.

In perfect honesty, I think trying make an ordered system into which all the different kinds of magic will fit into is an attempt at something that none of it was ever intended or designed to accomplish. Blizzard makes these things up as they need them (case in point: Monks, obviously wielding some kind of supernatural force, but completely different from everything else we've seen so far) and it's blind optimism to think that writers have set in stone how magic actually functions in the setting.

Don't care. I understand that the devs don't care about it and don't organize it that way. They don't even think about it. But I play a mage, I'm not going to rely on a system that makes magic easy as piss because every single thing is so isolated and has no connections with anything else. Blizzard says 'don't read between the lines', but I do, because otherwise the system is boring as fuck.

Also chi can easily be seen as a form of mana. In fact, healer-spec monks actually use mana, IIRC. There is nothing I have seen so far to indicate that chi is anything more than a pandaren-specific cultural interpretation of mana.

For the sake of sanity, It's perhaps better not to think too hard about how all the magic in the setting fits together, and just consider each class in isolation for the most part. The shadow magic used by priests? consider it based on priest abilities and lore examples of people using it specifically only. Necromancy? Same. Shamanism? Same.

A good description of any magic, anywhere, is anything that exceeds our ability to comprehend the workings of, or "Magic isn't logical"

Again, I play a mage. Mages are about knowledge and intellect (despite all the people playing silly "concentration mages" despite the fact that Spirit (which is concentration and willpower) is for priests, not mages). If I wasn't researching the way all magic works and the interconnections between all things, I don't think I could call myself a proper mage RPer. I don't want it to be simple. If I did, I wouldn't play a mage. Magic should not be simple.

IRL Mana and Chi do share a lot of similarities

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Balance vs. Chaos is a different belance in itself.

Maybe consider adding more types of magic into your equation, or dimensions.

Spoiler:

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Alternatively.

Spoiler:

Vaguely a 5 pointed star, if you disregard the Arcane sugroup.
All hail Stan.

My preferred system:

Spoiler:

Makes everything interconnected.

It also establishes Life as the counter to Shadow, placing Light and Fel on their own pedestal, which fixes Thelos' issue. Each has links to their associative element (Light with Life and Fel with Shadow), but are ultimately separate.

The classes are separated not by what they use, but instead by how they use it. The elements are the same regardless of if you are mage, druid, shaman, death knight, shadowpriest, etc.

The only ones that are separate are the forces of fel and holy (Light/Elune/etc).

Shouldn't Inscribers be between Spellcast and Runecest, since they use both?
And shouldn't Runemagic lie in the middle of all types since there are many types of runes and runemagic has it's roots in the natural world?

Drustai wrote:
It also establishes Life as the counter to Shadow, placing Light and Fel on their own pedestal, which fixes Thelos' issue. Each has links to their associative element (Light with Life and Fel with Shadow), but are ultimately separate.

Ah! Very good! I refrained from mentioning life magic and druidism for now in fear of overcomplicating things, and though I didn't think it trough for exactly that reason, I had a hunch that a possible solution could be found there. I indeed considered putting Shadow against Life rather than Light. I was even going to ask if somebody could explain me the exact difference between the two (life and light) but that's no longer necissary.

It is an elegant solution to be sure, though one that is highly speculative. To my knowledge we have yet to see Shadow be put into a direction opposition with Life in this way. The manifestations of shadow, that is to say, voidbeasts and undead, are almost always seen to be countered with Light magicks. I am very close to being convinced by Drustai's schematic, but I cannot simply let go of the Shadow vs Light opposition just yet. It is simply too often found in lore and makes for a very pretty and symbolic picture. It gives the Naaru lifecycle more meaning and allows us cryptic sayings like "Every object touched by the Light casts a Shadow!"

So in short I am logically/philosophically sold on the Drusolution to my problem, but not thematicly, poeticly and symbolically. If that makes any sense. This is certainly good food for thought, though!

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Shouldn't Inscribers be between Spellcast and Runecest, since they use both?

Technically, yes.

And shouldn't Runemagic lie in the middle of all types since there are many types of runes and runemagic has it's roots in the natural world?

No, because it is not magic of belief. It is arcane-type because it is magic of patterns. Arcane-type magic is magic of patterns, not magic that uses arcane energy, despite the name... I call it arcane-type instead of pattern-type because arcane-type is what it's been called in lore. The devs tend to use Arcane is both the name of an energy (Arcane Energy) as well as the name of a type of casting (Arcane Magic vs Divine Magic).

And all magic has roots in the natural world (save Fel/Holy), which was the point of that. All elements are natural. Arcane is natural. Just the different classes use that energy in different ways--either through shaping and patterns (intellect-focused), or through personal faith and willpower (spirit-focused). I could easily edit that picture and instead of dividing it as 'Arcane-type' vs 'Divine-type', change it to 'Intellect-based' vs 'Spirit-based'. That'd probably be less confusing, though it wouldn't be very useful as an IC name.

There are nature mages (mages who use the element of life), afterall, as shown in The Last Guardian. There are also arcane druids, as shown in WCII.

Thelos wrote:

Drustai wrote:
It also establishes Life as the counter to Shadow, placing Light and Fel on their own pedestal, which fixes Thelos' issue. Each has links to their associative element (Light with Life and Fel with Shadow), but are ultimately separate.

Ah! Very good! I refrained from mentioning life magic and druidism for now in fear of overcomplicating things, and though I didn't think it trough for exactly that reason, I had a hunch that a possible solution could be found there. I indeed considered putting Shadow against Life rather than Light. I was even going to ask if somebody could explain me the exact difference between the two (life and light) but that's no longer necissary.

It is an elegant solution to be sure, though one that is highly speculative. To my knowledge we have yet to see Shadow be put into a direction opposition with Life in this way.

We have.

Shadow is the energy of death. Life is the energy of life. They are intricately linked as the cycle of life and death. It is not Light that heals the land of blight, afterall. Light combats undead and unholy energy, though does not necessarily combat simple death (beyond healing and resurrection, which is more about divine intervention rather than 'regrowing' the flesh). For combating death, for returning the land to life, it is the energies of Life that are needed.

The manifestations of shadow, that is to say, voidbeasts and undead, are almost always seen to be countered with Light magicks.

Because those things are unnatural (voidbeasts still have an element of life to them... otherwise they wouldn't be walking around and existing, would they?). The Light counters the unnatural. For raw death itself, life is the counter. Life heals the land.

I don't think I remember a being attuned or born of the light to be weak against shadow. It seems to be only light beating "shadow". That's why paladins are the weapons of choice to throw at undead.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:I don't think I remember a being attuned or born of the light to be weak against shadow. It seems to be only light beating "shadow". That's why paladins are the weapons of choice to throw at undead.

Yeah. Shadow attacks life energy but is not exactly a counter to Light, which further supports the idea of Light vs Fel (which has been shown to beat back the Light, as in the Broken) and Life vs Shadow.

Isn't Light vs. Fel pretty much super effective against each other?
Exorcism, Holy Wrath and Turn Evil are very anti-demon.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Isn't Light vs. Fel pretty much super effective against each other?
Exorcism, Holy Wrath and Turn Evil are very anti-demon.

Yup.

From a desired balance point of view, I'd try to find some kind of sub-group to Light magic (as necromancy is to fel magic) and/or some 3rd force.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:From a desired balance point of view, I'd try to find some kind of sub-group to Light magic (as necromancy is to fel magic) and/or some 3rd force.

Necromancy is a form of shadow magic, not fel.

Right, another topic I feel needs to be discussed or atleast mused.

How exactly does one -learn- each of the schools of magic? Are they limited to just one, is it appropiate for a charecter to be able to master more then one? two? three? all the whole lot. I'm looking at you Draenei-orc-human Shamageadin.

Personally I have this belief.

Certain talents of magic are carried by blood and one is far more likely to be able to both access magic at all and be better at accessing it if one parent, or both channeled said school of magic. One example of this is my Gilnean mage, Emberstone, Her mother was a Harvest-witch and her father was a traveling mage. She is incapable of even watering plants correctly but showed her Father's talents from a young age. Resulting in her favoritism amidst her three siblings. Her brother, Mikhael showed promise in the Old ways and therefore became a Harvest-cleric, but her youngest sister Saphra, showed no exceptional or obvious allignment to any schools of magic.

In comparison, I feel like certain schools of magic have very open ended uses. Take for example a pair of twins are born and raised by two celebrated arcane using parents amidst gnomish society, however only one brother is capable of channeling the craft, whilst the other can barely curl his tongue, the powerless brother grows jealous and turns to Fel magic, now Fel magic is about power and addiction. Anyone can wield it, it's just about infusing it and seeing how long they last, now the now Warlock brother could end up being possessed, having his soul eaten by some Demon or evidently just blow himself up with a mischanneled fel flame spell. The point is it's a Dark art and it comes at a price, a price many people will pay. So in it's nature the dark arts do not exclude, more honey for the pot, I'd imagine. Hrm?


Now what about the more unusual schools. Well, perhaps races have a higher percentage of gifted children. One can imagine every High elf having some sort of potential towards the arcane, the same could apply to the Night elves and nature. Personally, I believe in these situations everyone is capable, but not everyone is truely -gifted-, One Night elf is obviously more powerful then the other students as he commands an oak tree to sprout up in a matter of minutes, whilst everyone else in the class is struggling to get the seed to even open.

The Holy light is also a quite unusual one, I don't believe this one would distinquish between blood. As it's more a matter of faith and a sense of justice, could it come to even a rarer few? Would make sense or every other citizen in Lordaeron would've been able to fight off the hordes of undead with a reflex of holy fire, and we definately wouldn't have suffered so many loses in Cataclysm with everyone and their mum being able to ressurect. Could it be something that comes with a determination rather then being gifted at birth, perhaps a higher concentration that allows true feats of the divine.

On the other hand, we have those classes that show multi-use of different schools of magic. I personally, don't believe that anyone should be capable of over-stretching their merits. I often bite my tongue when I'm asked to conjure a portal in charecter because it just feels like my Mage: Even if she's spent her entire life time studying magic, shouldn't be able to fling fire and frost, and -then- conjure food, portals and all sorts of arcane trinkets.

The more obvious example is the priest, wielding both the shadow and the holy? Honestly, they're two completely different animals and although there is much evidence towards them being simply siblings at two different ends of the scale, it's two different mindsets that are far, far apart.

Magic is more then just studying a selection of books to learn to do this and that. Even the most anicent charecters should struggle with weaving more then two or three schools of magic, what channel becomes part of -who- you are and that shouldn't be something that can be relearn't over a few days, weeks, months, years, centuries.

Think of it this way, Azeroth should only have a select few heroes running around. Don't think about everyone you see in the Auction house.. or try and remeber how many people raided Arthas, The average citizen in every racial society isn't a hero or capable of even using one " Talent tree. " let alone -three-! I enjoy specialising my charecters and really exploring who and -what- they are, weakness is just as interesting as any strength.

(Excuse the spelling mistakes and grammer fails. Yes, my first language is english .)

Scourge necromancy comes from from the fel magic of the legion. Death Coil is the first thing that comes to mind for me concerning a link.
And what the closest source says:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Necromancy

Necromancers are mortal practitioners of death magic, commonly referred to as necromancy. Channeling their knowledge of the arcane into manipulation of the forces of life and death, these men and women were instrumental in the forming of the Scourge in Lordaeron.

Necromancers twist arcane magic to manipulate the power of death.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Arcane

Lore also includes some so-called "shadow" spells as part the arcane as well, as magic practiced by warlocks and necromancers.

And states at the end:

Shadow (aka necromancy school, dark arts, demonology), shared with divine magic.

Edit:

Vectoria wrote:
Magic is more then just studying a selection of books to learn to do this and that. Even the most anicent charecters should struggle with weaving more then two or three schools of magic, what channel becomes part of -who- you are and that shouldn't be something that can be relearn't over a few days, weeks, months, years, centuries.

Training and studying has the effect of also teaching you what you -can't- do with magic. That's an important limit here.

For me the priest class has always been about willpower. It's the divine energies they draw upon that enables them to mould the universe according to their will. Light users mend and smite, ultimately with the goal to make the universe a better place (doesn't mean they're necessarily doing it right.)

Shadow users on the hand bend the universe to suit their own needs. They influence and control the thoughts of others, inflict pain and draw upon their fears if it is beneficial to the priest. Those more in-tune with their source of divine energies can even manifest it as physical shadows, most noticeably by turning themselves into living shadows.

Nonetheless, Light and Shadow are two sides of the same coin. Personally I've always summed up the dualist nature of the priest class with the phrase "Light a candle, cast a Shadow." Or perhaps you could think of a soul as an object. The soul can either reflect the Divine or absorb it and create a Shadow.

With that philosophy in mind, I tend to categorize the different types of magic as follows:
[Order] Divine (Light AND Shadow) <----> [Chaos] Fel
Arcane (All schools of arcane, inlucing Arcane Shadow, Necromancy and Enchanting)
Runic (Rune Magic and Inscription)
Nature (Druidic and Shamanistic)

Spiritual magic goes under either Shamanistic or Divine, depending on how it is performed. If the spirits are something to be worshipped then it's Divine, if they're something to negotiate with, it's Shamanistic.