Property.

Right, time for a flammable debate/rant/discussion.

I keep seeing ridiculous arguments and claims about ownership of buildings, areas, regions and even zones. Every-one and their mother that starts something new or wants or need something, tend to go into "claim" mode: This thing is -Mine- and you can't use it! While under all circumstances, you simply cannot claim anything if the community doesn't allow you to have it, unless you go ignore everyone debating your claim to a few pixels everyone can use. which gets very lonely.

Heck just looking at the city-hall none-sense in the last week, or the debate about the slaughtered lamb, makes me roll my eyes, do a seiken and sigh deeply.

Guys and Gals, Whatever happened to simply use a building when its free, and then let someone else use it when its not?

heck in the lamb thread I saw atleast 3 parties that wanted to use it as a bar, and now? its not even operated 7 days a week. because guilds can't fully staff a bar 7 days a week. but due to the discussion about ownership its now almost always empty. and I can't spin my head around that.

what the hell is going on?

Really, is it that difficult to just RP in an empty building without everyone popping up that supposedly claimed it 3 months ago and uses it ten minutes a week? is that impossible to share? or are we really so pathetic that if those 10 minutes are suddenly occupied we need to throw a temper tantrum instead of using the empty building next-door for your purpose?

What happened to just respect the people currently using a building and let them RP there at that time, instead of claiming something unclaimable? respect the rp going on there, and respect the rp when someone else uses "your" building.

and if you respect the rp enough, and then people staff a building long enough and often enough, that's when the community starts considering a building belonging to a certain group, because you know what, they're always there on a certain day and place, when you need them. that's what Fun and engaging. not randomly claiming zones with 3 people and bar everyone from it, like a rabid pack of dogs. nobody gets to RP then, nobody gets to do fun stuff, and there's only arguments, hurt feelings and it gets turned into a vicious circle. respect guys.

show respect, and give other people the ability to RP somewhere if they're currently Already RPing there. instead of barging in agitated. there's always a building next door.

get those sticks out of your asses, get your fingers of the angry keyboard, and talk it through.

cheers,

"Gray's Kettle" is being closed for this reason. Sorry for all the inconveniences that it may have caused, Disciples, community.

Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:"Gray's Kettle" is being closed for this reason. Sorry for all the inconveniences that it may have caused, Disciples, community.

the point isn't that you should close, its that you should cooperate instead of antagonise.

I completely agree with your post Amy, I really do. People should share at certain times and make it work but ugh... People's ego's..

EDIT: The whole idea is to create RP off of all this, if people are going to be egotistical and greedy and go "YOU CANT HAVE" Then what the fuck dude? What the fuck are you gaining by being greedy nubs? If you're using it at the current time, fine. If its not even something you constantly use then for god sake share. Don't bring your power emote brigade because you had the self-proclaimed deeds to something for several months and you yourself had used whatever place for longer and never even bumped into each other... Compromise, share! Don't be twats. Defias has enough drama, people are trying to create RP. Not be victimised because they stole your pixals space.

I use the SI:7 building as my RP hub alongside the regiment who use it as the command centre. We get along and ignore each other which works out well.

An interesting point. I had not realized such discussions had reached a point that they merrited a flame/rant topic. But perhaps, that just denotes my lack of involvement.

I do feel involved, somewhat, in the City Hall example here simply because I'm a Disciple and I imagine there has been a conflict between DoL and Lorainne. But here as well, I did not realize it had reached a boiling point.
I know, myself, of only 3 elements in this story. Perhaps someone can enlighten me with the rest of it? Here is what I do know:
- Lorainne claiming the City Hall to use for her gatherings, on which I commented a 'possible conflict' but I did not continue on the matter. I knew DoL only used it haphazerdly and sporadicly, perhaps too little to ever yield an issue. I didn't take any action.
- The DoL forum noted there was a conflict in use of the City Hall. I took the liberty of informing the leadership of Lorainne's topic, in order to explain the who, why and when, hoping that they would take actions towards a respectable solution.
- Valestrion commented the conflict in Lorainne's thread, asking for "an official" resolution.

Now... I don't know about you, but I believe the only sensible and proper way to go about claiming a location is as follows:
1) Check with the community if the building is used.
2) Check if it is actively used
3) Try to get in touch with any "users". Either IC or OOC. IC preferably, if such is possible.
4) Work out a resolution with "the community" regarding usage. To share is the answer. The only discussion should be "how".
5) Even if you "claimed" a building, keep an open mind for other users/players. You do not own anything OOCly.

This is just a list of steps, or protocol if you wish. At the basis, and this is Amy's argument, lies respect. This protocol simply tries to provide a checklist to ensure you didn't "accidentally disrespected" another roleplayer.

This protocol is what I followed for the library at the Canals, and it worked out well: JP uses it with permission of both Baron and Minister. He is in service of both and has to answer to both.

This is also what DoL did with the City Hall by bringing it before the council. We had to share it with some official and The Shining Strand. By bringing such matters before the council, you publicly announce your interest and offer a chance for anyone to publicly address any conflict. Add the fact that we could consider the building IC property of the city and this is a nigh perfect way to reach an agreement IC on the use of that building. It's just RP after all!
When I read Valestrion's comment to request the use of the building through the council, then I read that as a request to resolve this conflict in an IC and proper manner, with the intention of sharing the building in a manner that would be "accepted" IC.

What has gone wrong?

Reading this topic, and Lorainne's nearly self-victimization, I can only assume somewhere something disrespectful happened. Could the following of the 5 steps I mentioned above have avoided that?

Your checklist is rather cumbersome JP. but its based on decent principles but it goes about the fact that a building actually has an owner or co-owner and that's imo the wrong attitude to present it, when using a building as a roleplay tool.

the Lamb debate hasn't seemed to have exited negotiations yet. but atleast there, they're going for a partnership. and that's been going on for weeks now. (might be wrong, but that place seems empty every time i pop by)

not to mention the silly idea of "ownership" and having a "claim" on this building is what is making arguments happen, tempers get hotter etc. because beware if your RP is being hampered in anyway because some-one is sitting there.

Heck, I believe the Strand uses city-hall when we have a small thing, but that's once a month at the most, and for that reason we're not running around screaming that people should stay out. heck use it. but please don't if we're there RPing in it. just like we don't make a fuzz if people are rping in there when we want to... then we tend to move to the Argent dawn house if that's empty...

(curses the removal of the library wing in cath... curses)

Amaryl wrote:Your checklist is rather cumbersome JP.

I agree with Amaryl here. The potential for heated arguments only increases the more complicated the procedure gets. On a practical level, a party that "owns" a building only spends what, like, maybe 5% or les time actually using that building IC? Just because they own said building, does that mean that in that other 95% of the time others with a spontaneous idea should be prevented from using it?

And before somebody repeat Jean-Pierre's argument, the procedure you listed is simply much too complicated. It would suck the life out of any fresh new excited roleplay initiative. And lets not forget that the owners of the building may not even be known to the person that wishes to use the building. Heck, the council might not even be known to them, or they may not want to roleplay with them or recognize them as an authority for some reason.

I think what Amaryl is trying to say that nobody actually owns those buildings. If you're strolling around Stormwind and are suddenly struck by inspiration to use a building for something you shouldn't be prevented from realising it. Sure, if your activites are preventing someone from doing theirs, then you start negotiating. Open argument and rational debate always beats "MINE MINE MINE" screaming. Nobody is going to argue against that. If a conflict in wants arises I'm confident the parties can work it out together. What I am saying is that such a complciated procedure shouldn't be a prerequisite for being "allowed" (by whom, exactly?) to use a building.

Look, this server has a rich roleplaying history, and I try to respect that, but said history shouldn't prevent players (new or old) from starting their own, new initiatives. Said players shouldn't be forced into submitting themselves to the council, in my opinion. In the World of Warcraft, Squatting should be legal, nay, ecouraged, not discouraged. The more activity a building sees, the better. Any thing potentially standing in the way of that activity should do their best to support the squatters, in order to create the most netto roleplay opportunites for all.

My list or protocol isn't cumbersome. It is just detailed. Perhaps, my problem is that I tried to explain common sense. It goes, perhaps too deeply, into "how a respectable person" probably should go about sharing something. It can be as simple as leaving your seat for an old woman in the bus. You start by acknowledging your own needs, and those of others, then choosing a resolution that is best.

I'm not sure if my arguments were understood or explained properly, as both Thelos and Amaryl emphasize in response that things should be shared and not "claimed as belonging to one person". I can only agree to that. I believe coordination is the answer, to work out any possible conflict. But how can you coordinate if neither party properly communicate their needs... or even know them?
I doubt we have a difference in principle here, but we may have one in our approach to it.

Now.. there is an important separation to be made here. The first situation is where the parties involved are part of this community and have all the information available to them. I would consider it only appropriate to use these means. In the case of DoL and Lorainne, I deem the council meeting an acceptable platform to bring up such a matter between 2 established parties in that very community.

Secondly, and this touches your argument Thelos (rawr), is more about random RP and "ideas made at the moment". Indeed, one should be flexible. On one hand, you want to be as flexible and open towards spontaneous RP. On the other hand, it would suck to relocate a 40 man raid from a month-long planned event because 2 random players are making out on your seat, right?
There is no default solution. There is only the point to keep Respect in mind and to communicate eachother's needs to find a workable solution.

Sin Belore has used one of the big empty buildings in Silvermoon city as their Headquarters for a couple of years now. Most people know it's "ours", and almost all of the Silvermoon roleplayers stay on the other side of the city anyway.

Still, the place also serves as a public library so that pretty much anyone can visit the building whenever they want without being shooed out. Hell, it has even been rented out as a ballroom for nobles from time to time, and still is if someone wants to set something like that up.

The only time I'd have problems sharing the place would be if someone decided to turn the building into a bordello.

Someone once said, a long, long time ago, that roleplaying is like love-making. You give and you take, you respect the other and you acknowledge each other's needs.

Which, in essence, is what has been said above. I just used an analogy to sound fancy. Now I hope nothing more needs to be said about this and everyone will reflect upon this and make an effort to bring this attitude into their daily RP.

Excuse me? We established that there was a demand for the Lamb to be ran actively. We had meetings with the Regiment to make sure it becomes a protected business IC and won't be raided every 2 days without a 24hour notice and a warrant, we found a partner guild to help run it (Ravenholdt Sanctuary) and we have put in place measurements that offer security with roleplay such as watchers/guards, entrance rings to the underbelly (ICly) and we have collected a guild bank full of rare beverages and conjured up a GHI drinks menu. We are planning to open the Lamb with an event for next Monday and have it a recurring thing until interest picks up to have active staff in place for every night.

So please get your facts right before you make a post on how much your but is clenched about something that you know or have little to do with. Also, we have two bartenders that where there all last night and the night before and the guys over at RHS have been there most nights also. And as another fly in your ointment EotDR have been backed up with ongoing plots and schemes spending most of their time in the Lambs underbelly or Nethergarde.

That thread was to establish if there was a demand within the community for the Lamb to be actively ran, and if anyone else where interested in such thing. The two others who where interested have left the game or went afk now. So we have been working as hard as we can do to it solo until RHS came along to help out ICly at the start of this week.

On a side note, we share the underbelly with RHS, Doomsayers, Vanguard and many others. They are given an interview and if they prove worthy they are given a ring. The tavern upstairs has not been as active because we are having to plan, collect, advertise and do everything IC and OOC alone for the past few weeks. As we plan to use it for the duration of EotDR's existence we don't want to do a sloppy job, so excuse us for not rushing this out of the door.

We had two bar staff, over 1000+ rare drinks, a drinks menu and 5+ customers actively roleplaying within the tavern last night which was a Sunday. I'm not even too sure why you are angry/annoyed for. I've read your post a few times now, is it because we took too long to get things running? Maybe you could of helped us? Is it because you wanted the Lamb? We stated we where looking for partners. Either way, you could of made this a private matter and contacted me rather than flaming us on the forums. Thanks.

This is just a side note here: this sort of issues were supposed to be one of the duties of the minister of Trade since a while now. It was suggested that that specific Minister is the person people seek out when they have questions regarding ownership ICly or availability OOCly. That of course requires said person to be informed about who uses what and when, so a better coordination can be achieved between the parties interested to make use of the same location. That's somehow not the case right now, although it would help a lot if it were. Not only would people find out about a building a lot easier, but the community would be informed at the same time through an announcement during a council meeting, after everything would be settled.

Cyrdain wrote:Excuse me? We established that there was a demand for the Lamb to be ran actively. We had meetings with the Regiment to make sure it becomes a protected business IC and won't be raided every 2 days without a 24hour notice and a warrant, we found a partner guild to help run it (Ravenholdt Sanctuary) and we have put in place measurements that offer security with roleplay such as watchers/guards, entrance rings to the underbelly (ICly) and we have collected a guild bank full of rare beverages and conjured up a GHI drinks menu. We are planning to open the Lamb with an event for next Monday and have it a recurring thing until interest picks up to have active staff in place for every night.

as much as I hate quoting myself, its better then repeating myself, before you get so agitated, i haven't said a denigrating word about your guild, RHS or anyone else that participated in those threads. I said:

Amaryl wrote:
the Lamb debate hasn't seemed to have exited negotiations yet. but atleast there, they're going for a partnership. and that's been going on for weeks now. (might be wrong, but that place seems empty every time i pop by)

which is basically what you just posted. and updated the exact status yay, that you have exited negotiations. cool, that's nice. nothing wrong with that. and cool you're going to be operating that place on mondays. I don't think i've said anything bad about that. But it has taken more then a month since you started that thread. Which shouldn't be necessary for a building that gets used so sporadically as the lamb.

So please get your facts right before you make a post on how much your but is clenched about something that you know or have little to do with. Also, we have two bartenders that where there all last night and the night before and the guys over at RHS have been there most nights also. And as another fly in your ointment EotDR have been backed up with ongoing plots and schemes spending most of their time in the Lambs underbelly or Nethergarde.

two attempted misspelled insults in three sentences. Thank you for proving one of my points.

That thread was to establish if there was a demand within the community for the Lamb to be actively ran, and if anyone else where interested in such thing. The two others who where interested have left the game or went afk now. So we have been working as hard as we can do to it solo until RHS came along to help out ICly at the start of this week.

nowhere am i disputing your ability or your right, to use said building, and i'm glad you're making it work, since the more places to find rp the better. specially for shady types that's not solely on a guild level or in jail. I am however saying that if you're only staffing it on monday sunday and saturday, that other people should have no problems using that place on the other days. without getting in to serious ego competitions and ownership wrestling. but talk it out respectfully.

but hey

I'm not sure what point you have proven by making bold two minor spelling mistakes I made in the five paragraphs I wrote. Does this negate my counter argument or something?

Also where did you write

the Lamb debate hasn't seemed to have exited negotiations yet. but atleast there, they're going for a partnership. and that's been going on for weeks now. (might be wrong, but that place seems empty every time i pop by)

because I don't see it.

What I see is

heck in the lamb thread I saw atleast 3 parties that wanted to use it as a bar, and now? its not even operated 7 days a week. because guilds can't fully staff a bar 7 days a week. but due to the discussion about ownership its now almost always empty. and I can't spin my head around that.
what the hell is going on?

and

Heck just looking at the city-hall none-sense in the last week, or the debate about the slaughtered lamb, makes me roll my eyes, do a seiken and sigh deeply.

The reason you state this is a potentially flamable debate is due to the fact that I think even you know that you have generally targeted EotDR and their activities as an example. I'm sorry but if we are doing something wrong by the community, then something can be brought forward. If you are having a bad day and feel like targeting another guilds efforts to create roleplay, go for a jog. Thanks.

I understand both points of this. Personally - bars and so on things need to be discussed, but houses no, unless it's a special activity going on there (I had a very friendly chat with Lorianne about one of my characters' shop. If she wishes to continue her Kettle there I'm more than willing to relocate, but the 'Coin' guild seems fond of the place.)

I really don't see why anyone would care. If I see anyone in a place I use often, I use another place for the time being and explain OOCly to the person I am roleplaying with.

But eh. Tbh I haven't seen any issues with it myself.

Also when did I say we where only staffing it on Monday? I said Monday would be a recurring thing, meaning we'd advertise it as a specials night or something which I then said we would start staffing other nights when there is actually people to serve. Bar staff can't roleplay without patrons, patrons can roleplay without bar staff. Think about that. The emptiness of the Lamb as of the past few months hasn't been because of the lack of bar staff but there has been no interest from the community to roleplay there on mass. We picked the Lamb up when it was empty and advertised slightly whilst roleplaying there ourselves, people are slowly starting to come. Offering a more seedy and underground location to roleplay in.

Perhaps people should read what's actually being posted, in all posts. Just a suggestion.

Courtesy is contagious. Or maybe that's syphilis. Either way, it's catching and leads to debilitating illness and eventually death.

Wait... no. I mean, either way discussion and sharing is a way forward. I liked the RP is like making love (to a beautiful woman, I'm channelling Swiss Tony here) analogy.

Seems we need more RP love making. Less of the RP being like an unsatisfying quickie behind a nightclub. Brief, disappointing, and neither party managed to get what they want. Plus you get cold brick pressing on your arse.

Cyrdain wrote:I'm not sure what point you have proven by making bold two minor spelling mistakes I made in the five paragraphs I wrote. Does this negate my counter argument or something?

They were insults or attempts at insults. Which was the point I was making.

Also where did you write

the Lamb debate hasn't seemed to have exited negotiations yet. but atleast there, they're going for a partnership. and that's been going on for weeks now. (might be wrong, but that place seems empty every time i pop by)

because I don't see it.

seventh post first page, my third post.

The reason you state this is a potentially flamable debate is due to the fact that I think even you know that you have generally targeted EotDR and their activities as an example. I'm sorry but if we are doing something wrong by the community, then something can be brought forward. If you are having a bad day and feel like targeting another guilds efforts to create roleplay, go for a jog. Thanks.

I started a thread about recurring property conflict and claims about property. I used the two freshest examples available on this forum, that everyone reading this forum is able to read the backstory off. and not every single anecdote that happens every-single day. There is a difference, I do not see where you got the impression that it was a personal attack or that you felt like the need to retort with insults, but hey, I can't tell you what you're feeling. and I'm a big boy I can handle it (though it weakens your argument), but it clearly shows how volatile "ownership" claims can be, because there is a personal attachment, there is work put into it and and so people do have a stake in it, which is why its so important to treat people that you come into conflict with, with respect, so that the actual issue is being debated and that it isn't getting turned into a personal vendetta of mudslinging and getting your own gratification, but work out a solution that will not only be beneficiary to both parties but improves RP as a whole. since every building belongs to everyone, and everyone can use every building they wish when they wish if they so wish, and the only thing people can do about that is ignore it. which as mentioned before gets lonely.

so respect is the key.

Funny thing is.. the debate on property regarding the lamb hasn't been even deemed a problem from any of the parties, all due to the fact we have been working things out between ourselves in the best possible manner.
The Lamb wasn't open alot earlier only because our guild isn't solely based on it. We have other plots and issues, but last night, as Cyrd said, it started.

So I really fail to see why you would "go Seiken and sigh deeply" When most of what you know about this matter is here on the forum. Which covers about 1/4th of the whole thing.

I wasn't attempting to insult you though, I said butt clenched because of how annoyed/angry/fed up you came across though your initial post, and fly in your ointment used to say what you stated or wish to be true is not correct, this is why.

What respect have you shown EotDR through this though may I ask? Saying you want to roll your eyes, sigh, can't be bothered etc etc with all the hard work we have and are putting into the Slaughtered Lamb. The only issue you seem to have is that nothing in the game should be owned in roleplay. What my point is that if the owner in question does so not for personal gain only but to also create roleplay for all who wish to visit the said building there should be no problem.

The fact that the Lamb has never since we brought forward our proposal caused conflict over ownership, I don't think you can use us in your "argument", you add that it has been empty since we made the proposal. I told you we aren't rushing anything, we're catering for roleplayers who decide to come by as we are nearly always at the Lamb. If patrons come by, we at EotDR, Fimbles or RHS have always nipped downstairs, popped on our uniforms and served/watched over the Lamb.

Aleric has brought forward our proposal a while ago I believe, we have worked with a few people to create a nice drinks menu, tried to find a stable partner which has only just happened with RHS, planned events and an opening event and are now finally ready to begin next week.

With that said I am leaving this post, it's pointless. Just look at the Pig'n'Whistle and Northshire Abbey please, they are owned, the community accepts it and it offers a vast array of roleplay. What is your problem with that?

Well i'm glad you guys worked it out in good fashion, since the more accessible RP the better. And I know this forum covers less then even half of the material. But specific examples not withstanding, it is a matter that re-occurs like clock-work be it that two rpers use a building for an hour because nobody is using it and then suddenly a guild has an event there, or someone else strolls in screaming "get out of my house" its something happens a lot. and is generally annoying for both parties.

and its a shame that Cyrdain felt victimised (nor anyone from eotdr) since that wasn't my intention, but its nice that the fact that it can be an emotional point and should be dealt with carefully, was stipulated nonetheless.

Well Amaryl in a sense I am glad you have brought this up, I am speaking to our partners at RHS right now about covering as much time as possible so that the Lamb does not go empty, to avoid the problem you have put forward with confusion.

Though I may not agree with some of your statements and views on us and the Lamb, I'd like you to know we're not taking this lightly. We've spoken to the council, the Regiment and the community. We've planned events and time schedules, made menus and travelled Azeroth (literally) In search of a guild bank full of nice and exotic drinks.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to contact me in game or on here via PM about the Lamb or even EotDR, so that these misunderstandings can be avoided.

Well, sadly this is just one of many roleplay related problems that Blizzard won't turn their eyes to. But ever since I started playing this game, I have seen specific areas and building being owned by some certain guild. Of course, some are more contested than others, but the only way to fix it is by having both parties work out some sort of mutual benefiting deal.

In all this, the biggest issue is really one of the parties wanting to keep the place to themselves at all times. That is why EotDR started in the first place the thread on this forum. If some other group of players decides to suddenly take over the lamb, we can politely point them towards the thread and then see what we can work out.

This kind of conflict only denies roleplay instead of encouraging it, but it's also in times like these that we get to see how mature some people are when it comes to resolving said issues.