The problem with some cultists

I mean the living ones dru.

Drustai wrote:

Even then, she doesn't wear those kind of outfits all the time, and is frequently in non-evil outfits... which has, funnily enough, gotten her yelled at by fellow DKs for 'pretending to be living'.

For sure. If you show up in the Archeus with bright lively (pun intended) colors, you're sure to be ridiculed! Dress for the ocassion, folks, you dont wear skulls to a wedding nor do you wear flowers to a necromantic ritual.

Thelos wrote:

Drustai wrote:

Even then, she doesn't wear those kind of outfits all the time, and is frequently in non-evil outfits... which has, funnily enough, gotten her yelled at by fellow DKs for 'pretending to be living'.

For sure. If you show up in the Archeus with bright lively (pun intended) colors, you're sure to be ridiculed! Dress for the ocassion, folks, you dont wear skulls to a wedding nor do you wear flowers to a necromantic ritual.

She got ridiculed while wearing lively colors in Stormwind, not Acherus. xD

By me... she was carrying books and not a soulblade at the time too and yes, Lex called her a poor Knight XD

They get on slightly better now, it has been days since they last argued.

Everybody gets ridiculed in Stormwind about everything. "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere!"

...Stop me if I start making sense.

In SW there is the whole you are a loler until proven otherwise.

There's a place for everything and everyone I'd say. Subtle evil has it's time and place but so does balantly obvious evil sometimes.

Would it not be fair to say that in game as well as IRL there are some evil people who are subtle and never dicovered and some who wish the whole world to know and fear them?

Or prehaps the only reason you have only seen the big bad's talking outloud in the Lamb and not seen any cloak and dagger sort, is becuase they are being what they are? Cloak and dagger.

Well just a thought anyway.

Shakiri wrote:Would it not be fair to say that in game as well as IRL there are some evil people who are subtle and never dicovered and some who wish the whole world to know and fear them?

Problem is that those wicked and evil people in this game don't exactly have a Constitution that supports freedom of religion or any set laws that grant privileges to be what they are. Unless the Community puts together a doctrine that states what one can do, we can't refer to IRL situations either, or not that easily.

Compare Kezan with Stormwind City, regarding culture, ethics and possible law enforcement. In Kezan, it is an acceptable evil to be a mercantile turncoat who exploits everyone in its vicinity to further its own goals, but I doubt that they'd find it acceptable if one does so by sacrificing them to Sargeras and claiming that summoning him as a warlock is their ultimate goal. I'd bet my money on said warlock being shot to death the moment he's seen.

Now imagine the same thing in a city that's supposed to be the paragon citadel of humanity, a bulwark against corruption and where personal gain is limited to shady basements, politics and markets or shops. Its foundation isn't Kezan's, its something that outright despises the Occult. In this situation, I reckon anyone being open about their intentions wouldn't be shot but put on a public display and ritually beheaded to reassure the masses that such evil shouldn't even exist.

In for example the USA, you can be a pagan openly, or be a Satanic worshipper as long as you use tomato juice for the rituals and not goat or human entrails (And even then lets not go as far as to point out how many countries would have you butchered for doing so), but in Warcraft, seriously? Where half the world just got gnarled by one of its guardians and there are more shades of evil than one can count? I doubt you can apply IRL tolerance to such.

Nobody wakes up and thinks
"Well, what kind of evil things will I do today?! Muahahahahahahaha"

no "evil" person finds himself "Evil" and that's imo a rule of thumb people should play by.

which sometimes a lot of rpers forget and get caught up in the entire evil sceme.

i mean, stalin didn't think he was being evil when he deported everyone and everything to the gulags, no he tought he was doing the bloody right thing for the USSR

Neither playstyle is wrong.. For example Cyrdain stormed Northshire Abbey and opened fire on all who stood in his way. He broke free the Chapters prisoners and then let them escape while he stood and fought them off, becoming captured. Now though, with the context of being hunted and having his head on many peoples list he has been in hiding for the past month working from the shadows and avoiding detection.

What I think is people need to stop judging others so easily and calm it down with their do's and don'ts lists besides the basic roleplay knowledge that everyone should know/lore.

If you're walking around Stormwind and see someone dressed in black and skulls, talking about shadow magic and wearing a cultist sticker, go report them to the guards. They aren't breaking any rules. If they are walking around in Stormwind like this, in the plain open, then they are about to die, right? If they are in the Lamb like this, then that's not a problem. The Lamb is on the outskirts of the Kingdom, it's a warlock tavern. My question is, why would a none cultist be going there in the first place. That would surely cause some suspicion with your characters standing.

Shakiri wrote:Would it not be fair to say that in game as well as IRL there are some evil people who are subtle and never dicovered and some who wish the whole world to know and fear them?

Of course there can be villains who are loud about their evil side and still be great at it. The server has seen some of them. However, they all had the power to make the world fear them, which was granted to them by the RP population themselves through numerous plots and tons of RP.

Many of the villains I was referring to are the typical shady type babbling about a power no one has ever seen. I doubt anyone would fear an unknown cultist just because they claim to be oh-so-evil. Chances are he/she will get his/her ass kicked by the authorities if anything, especially when they are being so damn obvious in the middle of the Alliance's capital city. A good villain knows when, where and with whom to be loud about themselves, when to lie, bluff or be diplomatic. So people should be prepared to face the consequences if they take the risk of being that obvious without really being prepared and avoid complaining when that actually happens.

Cyrdain wrote:If you're walking around Stormwind and see someone dressed in black and skulls, talking about shadow magic and wearing a cultist sticker, go report them to the guards. They aren't breaking any rules. If they are walking around in Stormwind like this, in the plain open, then they are about to die, right?

Wrong. Talking about fel perhaps, not shadow. And even then, unless they are preaching or actually practicing it, I doubt an arrest would be possible.

Cyrdain wrote:If they are in the Lamb like this, then that's not a problem. The Lamb is on the outskirts of the Kingdom, it's a warlock tavern. My question is, why would a none cultist be going there in the first place. That would surely cause some suspicion with your characters standing.

The Lamb is within the city walls, far from "on the outskirts of the Kingdom". It can't get more central actually, unless it moved right in the keep. The borders to Stranglethorn or Deadwind Pass would be outskirts of the Kingdom, a tavern in the middle of a city is a tavern in the middle of a city. Also, to answer the question, there are many reasons a non cultist would visit the Lamb. Guards and Light followers for example, if the rumors about that place become to loud and distressing. And it would make perfect sense too.

Mandui wrote:Many of the villains I was referring to are the typical shady type babbling about a power no one has ever seen. I doubt anyone would fear an unknown cultist just because they claim to be oh-so-evil. Chances are he/she will get his/her ass kicked by the authorities if anything, especially when they are being so damn obvious in the middle of the Alliance's capital city.

I think you are getting confused with pretned cultists who are god emoting slightly and those who are talking in a shady bar and try to keep it [Low].

With Cultists... You have to take into concideration some might become insane with 'Power'. Or what they think is Power. I don't see them much different from the followers of the light, if they start gaining more power they show it off. Wouldn't you if you had a button to destroy the world. Or said to. You'd threaten a load of people first, maybe sort out world peace? Fuck knows where I'm going with this. But I think it's imaginative about some 'Cultists' going to ground level with what they do, It means they're noticed as what they are both ICly and OOCly. You shouldn't start flaming them till they become really bad at being a cultists... Heh... :3

Amaryl wrote:Nobody wakes up and thinks
"Well, what kind of evil things will I do today?! Muahahahahahahaha"

no "evil" person finds himself "Evil" and that's imo a rule of thumb people should play by.

I disaree with this. There are plenty of mental cases who's minds work something like this.

And even if there weren't any people like that in real life, let us not forget that we inhabit an adventurer's universe, much akin to D&D, and such a universe needs black-and-white baddies that our heroes can slaughter without any moral consequence whatsoever. Lord of the Rings needs its Orcs and Goblins. Our valiant knights need their crazed cultists.

Thelos wrote:

Amaryl wrote:Nobody wakes up and thinks
"Well, what kind of evil things will I do today?! Muahahahahahahaha"

no "evil" person finds himself "Evil" and that's imo a rule of thumb people should play by.

I disaree with this. There are plenty of mental cases who's minds work something like this.

And even if there weren't any people like that in real life, let us not forget that we inhabit an adventurer's universe, much akin to D&D, and such a universe needs black-and-white baddies that our heroes can slaughter without any moral consequence whatsoever. Lord of the Rings needs its Orcs and Goblins. Our valiant knights need their crazed cultists.

Aye, but there's a problem when people start playing said archetype and then refuse to face that your character will most likely die.

Thus, I find it better to play Amaryl's character type when you're playing something that you want to invest a lot of time and effort into.

I guess in the end it's personal preference though.

you're missing the point.

its not the fact that the archetypical good-guys think the the archetypical bad-guys are bad. by all mean destroy the wretched the evil doers.

its the point that the archetypical bad guys don't consider themselves the wretched evil doers.

the good guys morals and values, aren't the same as the bad guys morals and values

getting more power, learning things by slaughtering millions, to a bad guy is just part of the deal they're willingly accepting. it doesn't make them bad in their own eyes, just... determined, righteous, delusioned... whatever platitude you wish to fill it.

but the moment someone says, I'm doing evil because you know, i'm evil, he's not understanding the morality of playing a bad guy.

Note there is a difference if you're going through a inner struggle with your conscience and all that. not sure if you should do something, but then do it because ultimately it serves the Greater good. even if that greater good is yourself. its the character's struggle between what -He- thinks is right and what -He- thinks is wrong.

what the rest of the world thinks about it has absolutetly nothing to do with the equasion.

and yes, even the maniacal chaotic evil doers, need to have motivation beyond, "Lol I'm so ebul!"

Thelos wrote:

Amaryl wrote:Nobody wakes up and thinks
"Well, what kind of evil things will I do today?! Muahahahahahahaha"

no "evil" person finds himself "Evil" and that's imo a rule of thumb people should play by.

I disaree with this. There are plenty of mental cases who's minds work something like this.

And even if there weren't any people like that in real life, let us not forget that we inhabit an adventurer's universe, much akin to D&D, and such a universe needs black-and-white baddies that our heroes can slaughter without any moral consequence whatsoever. Lord of the Rings needs its Orcs and Goblins. Our valiant knights need their crazed cultists.

Are you dismissing that few million constantly respawning madmen and evildoers who we're killing from level 1 to 85?

Amaryl wrote:you're missing the point.

[...]

its the point that the archetypical bad guys don't consider themselves the wretched evil doers.

No, I got the point, at least if the point was what I just quoted. I just disagree with it. I think there are bad guys that think they are bad guys because they are bad guys. I think "For teh ebulz" is an entirely feasible motivation and a solid foundation for a character. I feel your point is based on the sentiment that in the end, everybody does what they think is good. It is unthinkable that somebody does evil things if they know they are evil or at least without doing them for some greater, good end. Knowing good is doing good. It is impossible for a person to act in a way that is in no way connected to anything the person values or considers good.

Even if I would grant you this, which I do not, then there would still by definition be characters that do not act like this. Insane people. Madmen. There are plenty of those in World of Warcraft, with the myriad of powers causing insanity in Azeroth.

Even if there aren't any people or entities like that in our world, in this setting there are. Liches. Ghouls. Scourge. Demons. Creatures of pure evil exist in Azeroth. And - they're pretty cool. You know, with the flames and skulls and blackness and such. If its cool, there will be people that want to play it. I dont see anything wrong with that.

In closing:

Amaryl wrote:and yes, even the maniacal chaotic evil doers, need to have motivation beyond, "Lol I'm so ebul!"

No they dont.

Ghouls don't have motivation beyond eat... but Liches have, demon's have.

its called Power, I want power. more more more more more more and more.

more power is never enough. and They don't care that they have to kill thousands to achieve that power, because to them

Power is worth more then Lives.

and if power is worth more then lives, how is it wrong to sacrifice lives for power?

and thus a lich doesn't consider himself evil.

that's the mindset

even that gnome that loves to torture people senseless. does it because he thinks its funny when they squirm and beg.

Evil Guys Lack your perception of right and wrong.

and its that mindset that people imo should RP

while using the cool character type and OOCly doing evil things because its fun.

heck even in the lotr movies there's this one perfect quote that clearly backs my point. we know that lotr is the archetypical Good guys vs Evil guys.

but during the siege for minas tirith, the head orc says:

" The time of men is ending, the Time of the orcs has begun"

as in, its their time to shine, its their time to rule after so long in darkness, the bad humans that do nothing but try to destroy them, are at the brink of defeat, and be damned if we're not going to live the shit out this world on our own terms.

I don't consider myself evil when i stomp on a cockroach or spider that is annoying me...

or when i lay rat poison because a mouse showed up

i call it keeping my house clean.

why would a lich think any differently when killing men?

I understand this sentiment. I really do. I understand the logic of it. I just do not agree with it. I'll leave it at that.

So you disagree that RPers need motivation for their morals? alright!

No, I disagree that-

Amaryl wrote: "Lol I'm so ebul!"

-is not a valid motivation.

Dont think I can make it any clear-cut than that, I'll leave others to discuss it lest we derail this thread completely.

There are people who worship demons, shadow and other 'dark forces'. It makes perfect sense for them to brag about their exploits in the name of their 'master'. So if a cultist goes on ranting about how many people he slaughtered without mercy of Demon-lord Nag'roth, he is not being 'obviously evil' - he is bragging about his achievements which he believes MATTER.

In same way they can go ranting about how proud they are to have rejected the Light and so forth. So I think in the universe full of people who worship dark powers and adhere to 'evil' philosofies it is completely normal to 'appear and sound evil'. It is however still stupid and suicidal