Path of Conquest: Chapter II [Concluded]

*cries* I just lost my post through being a clutz so this is a re-type.

Drustai: No offence is taken. In my first draft I actually included a disclaimer as to my own hypocrisy at this time but I removed it because it's pretty self evident.

I confess I was not trying to calm the drama, because I think it's fairly clear that simply won't happen. But rather express my own displeasure and resultant feelings because of it.

Gnash:

I was actually basing my entire stand point on the people complaining on the fact they are complaining. Your campaign looks as thoroughly and as thoughtfully organised as it could have been, if we take the inclusion of rules as a nessecity rather than a drawback as I do.

The reason I haven't personally taken part in the campaign this far is due to the fact Tarv and I have been on holiday for the past five weeks, not due to any desire not to until I saw the response of other people towards it. I love PvP, I love RPPvP even more because I love watching RPers play at officers and soldiers!

But what I don't like is the back and forth sniping and accusations of cheating that result after an event. I wasn't there, but if you take everything in this thread as true, and past experiances into account both sides were cheating. And this is my 'problem' with the imposition of rules. It causes drama.

I understand why you did it, but the use of hyperbole to defame the concept of 'no rules' was unnessecary considering Muzjhath managed to come up with an argument against it, an argument I'll answer later on.

I play both sides, I've no sort of brand loyalty to a blue and gold lion (I despise that symbol. D:), and my Forsaken is possibly my favourite character. And that is why my attack was not levelled at the Horde, or the Alliance, or any other broad group but at the people who think it sporting to accuse people of cheating rather than gritting their teeth, sucking up the hurt and getting on with it. I don't like excuses, unless offered in an obviously self depreciating way, as I believe JP's comment was. Through playing both sides I also know that both sides whine when they lose because remarkably both sides are played by people.

On a final note when I said I don't give a shit about PvP I mean I don't care who wins, because when either side wins it's for the same reason. That doesn't mean I don't really, really enjoy it. There are a few people in my guild who think I'm insane for levelling from 1-85 through BGs but it's what I enjoy.

Muzjhath: Thank you for actually thinking about the 'no rules' concept rather than disregarding it as anarchy. However, having double checked the two arranged RPPvP campaign threads in which I took part I'm a loss regarding which events you are referring to?

Alerting and involving Horde RP guilds was a big problem with the Southern Barrens campaign, but given the Seal was only alerted last night I think the same is true with this one. As to the changing rules of the last campaign I can't say, I simply turned up and fought as I usually do, heal until I'm dead.

I'm not interested in which battles have or have not gone bad because my intention was never to attack the campaign in any way besides the ruleset which I believe encourages the true 'victims' of my vitriolic rant.

The way I envisage a PvP event with no rules working is a time and place is announced then the two sides lay into each other until one side's respawn timer is so large there are none of them left standing ont he field and the surviving side has won. If after two or three deaths people would prefer to use the spirit healer and return to their camp for post battle RP then that simply speeds up the process. If this is too brutal for people to enjoy then I can understand that but what I can't understand is people laying down rules they know are going to lead to accusations of cheating.

Geneviève wrote:Now perhaps I have some perspective because I've been away; don't give a shit about PvP in a game with arbitrary RNG, no hit detection, clickable skills, etc; or haven't taken part in this recent campaign.

But it is dissapointing and embarassing to see the pathetic, juvenile, and hyprocritical comments being thrown around by both sides. Neither side was quicker off the mark than the other to start whining when they lost so man the fuck up and take it on the chin. Krogon, you usually secure the top spot in my 'hall of fame' for most pathetic response after PvP so why don't you just take a few deeps breaths, back off from the conversation and never involve yourself in any form of competition ever again? I think it might do you some good.

JeanPierre, I actually read your post as if you'd laced it with intentional sarcasm, poking fun at the people who do care too much. Probably because I believe you understand this is a game. If I'm wrong, you can join Krogon.

The Seal was asked to take part last night, but can you really be surprised if I'm loath to uproot my guild from their RP just so they can have the 'pleasure' of playing with you guys? It's embarassing that I should have to factor OOC issues into an IC decision but I'm not going to 'not enjoy myself' just so a bunch of pricks with too few accomplishments in their real lives can squabble over who was corpse camping, who combat ressed, and Light forbid took to the high ground!

And just to round this off I'm going to salute Drustai for her response.

krogon wrote:

Jeanpierre wrote:When the Horde loose, they change the rules, plan and setup till they win.

If you'd like to have a civilised and constructive discussion about rules and their implimentation, i would be very thrilled. However, while the alliance rage quit battles becuase they lose, like in the Slugewerks, i'm inclined to think it would only be a discussion of rage and grievance.

Winning is Irellevent, you CANT win everything everytime.

Having fun, in a constructive, In character way where nobody breaks the rules is the aim.

if your attending these events and battles for anything else other than what i stated, i suggest you go back to stormwind or visit a Battleground.

I'd like to refer you to the mirror reaction the Horde took to the Southern Barrens campaign but the aim of this part of my post is to be constructive.

I've said half a dozen times the way to make RPPvP conflict work is to impose as few rules as possible. Let corpsecamping happen, let them combat res, let them do whatever the hell they think will improve their odds of winning and you do the same. Then the losers only have Blizzards terrible combat system to blame when they lose and not 'rulebreakers' on the other side. If you're not mature enough to handle being corpsecamped you really shouldn't be playing on a PvP server at all, never mind seeking out RPPvP.

...Fascinating, so the repetitive corpse camping of one group by the other is fun for those subjected to it? no, nobody enjoys it and i doubt you would if you think about it for just a moment. The Rules gnash has come up with are there to maximise fairness so that 'everyone' as a community, not single factions, have fun.

Having been both sides of the fence, and having gauged the responses of both factions and individuals when faced with Defeat in world pvp i can safely say i understand the exact reason why there is 'whine' or 'unhappyness'. And it simply comes down to over hype, and a hunger for victory. People on both sides are hungry, starving and demanding a win at every battle. They can deny it of course, but everyone likes and wants a win.

The solution isnt getting rid of rules (which would destroy the roleplay element) or adding far too many (which would destroy the pvp). Gnash has found a wonderful balance in it all. we've had wins, and losess both sides. As a result theres generally been no complaint. The first battle into stonetlaon however is an example of what happens when you have too much confusion over rules and Roleplay elements inter mingled with the pvp, in short, too much going on.

Last nights fight around Thal'darah was considered by both sides to be quite balanced, and fun. Numbers felt just right, the location was great and the outcome (from horde perspective, as we really were expecting to be ripped a new one) was unexpected.

But back to my original point. The Problem is far too much focus on Winning, and too little on what comes 'from' either victory or loss. Roleplay, whether its be toasting to victory over the fire, or patching up the wounded in camp, is Roleplay.

So i'd like to thank Gnash and Jomir for working so well together in organising this brilliant campaign. and in paticular my thanks to Gnash for showing me that i too when i came over from alliance, was far too fixated on the big 'Win' and not the Roleplay, you the orc gnash, you the orc.

krogon wrote:

...Fascinating, so the repetitive corpse camping of one group by the other is fun for those subjected to it? no, nobody enjoys it and i doubt you would if you think about it for just a moment. The Rules gnash has come up with are there to maximise fairness so that 'everyone' as a community, not single factions, have fun.

Having been both sides of the fence, and having gauged the responses of both factions and individuals when faced with Defeat in world pvp i can safely say i understand the exact reason why there is 'whine' or 'unhappyness'. And it simply comes down to over hype, and a hunger for victory. People on both sides are hungry, starving and demanding a win at every battle. They can deny it of course, but everyone likes and wants a win.

The solution isnt getting rid of rules (which would destroy the roleplay element) or adding far too many (which would destroy the pvp). Gnash has found a wonderful balance in it all. we've had wins, and losess both sides. As a result theres generally been no complaint. The first battle into stonetlaon however is an example of what happens when you have too much confusion over rules and Roleplay elements inter mingled with the pvp, in short, too much going on.

Last nights fight around Thal'darah was considered by both sides to be quite balanced, and fun. Numbers felt just right, the location was great and the outcome (from horde perspective, as we really were expecting to be ripped a new one) was unexpected.

But back to my original point. The Problem is far too much focus on Winning, and too little on what comes 'from' either victory or loss. Roleplay, whether its be toasting to victory over the fire, or patching up the wounded in camp, is Roleplay.

So i'd like to thank Gnash and Jomir for working so well together in organising this brilliant campaign. and in paticular my thanks to Gnash for showing me that i too when i came over from alliance, was far too fixated on the big 'Win' and not the Roleplay, you the orc gnash, you the orc.

My favourite memory from Ravenholdt was being corpsecamped by Linzi the level 60 lightning doom cow. That's actually what I miss most about world PvP. The thrill of trying to escape from gankers when you were levelling. *shrugs*

If the rules were maximising fairness there wouldn't be accusations of cheating. Removing rules would level the playing field completely and remove any possibility to cheat without in any way harming the RP elements of the campaign. I fail to see how being corpse camped mid fight harms the RP, unless you feel jumping to your feet after being stomped to death by a tauren and then being allowed to run off by the enemy to eat a magical cake and rallying for a second assault is a positive RP element of RPPvP.

Everyone likes and wants to win, of course they do, bur that doesn't mean they have to care when they don't and accuse others of cheating to protect their precious ego. There comes a time when everyone has to take it on the chin and confess they lost to better players. That applies to both sides, because besides the racials there is no difference between the quality of either side and the battles should fall roughly 50/50.

Geneviève wrote:JeanPierre, I actually read your post as if you'd laced it with intentional sarcasm, poking fun at the people who do care too much. Probably because I believe you understand this is a game.

Well yeah... The boasting about their abilities and resistance to trolling was too tempting a challenge to let pass. It was also in reference to one of the posts stating the Alliance blamed someone else. (EDIT: apparently that was Krogon)

Looking back at my post and the rage it seems to have spawned, I guess my post was too dry and may have come off too bitter.

Sorry.

Now... I don't oppose different formats of pvp being tried and used. I believe it is commendable something new is tried every once in a while. But I don't believe it makes sense to bash one in particular. I have enjoyed the format that Gene proposed a lot in the past as well. Certainly as a healer, it softens the blow of being ganked by bat crazy undeads... Not that I mind some personal time with Vect.

What I do not understand, in this discussion, is how Stormwind RP got involved into it... and seemingly in a negative way. What on earth? Was does that have to do with this? Keep it on track.

You just got trolled ;D

Trolololol!

Different rulesets is fine by me, but I'm not using them

Rules wouldn't be needed if people were able to be decent. But people will take anything as a personal attack and it snowballs out of control from there.
And saying that a fair rule shouldn't lead to accusations of cheating is trange, there will always be people who only consider it fair if their own side has the advantage.

And being allowed to run off by the enemy to eat a magical cake is about as realistic as, if in the case of no rules and continuous corpse camping, one side not being out for months because they have to heal all their wounds.

If there are too many rules, they just become bothersome.
Either way, I as a role player, like rules and limitations. Most do, that's why mary sues and godemoting are considere bad form and not done.
These rules allow for inbetween roleplay, that we have a best out of 3 or best out of 5 concept at the moment. If the fighting would be limitless, then it'd be just one battle.


Edit:
Maybe the good priest JP should make a deal with Rargnasha/Theraluin. He seems to get his fill of Vectoria rather fast.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Rules wouldn't be needed if people were able to be decent.

Not trying to be obnoxious... but I don't agree with the literal meaning of this Rules partly make the game.

being allowed to run off by the enemy to eat a magical cake

Aye.. aye.. I don't know how I feel about this myself, but killing this seriously disadvantages some specs.

Maybe... that's not for the worst.

Well, in all honesty if we gaimed for realism I'd say 2/3rds of us would need to roll new Characters after every RP-PvP engagement, or in the least campagin. Back when armies ran agains each other most did die. Even in a world with magical healing. It's not just a "snap finger" and you're healed outside of game mechanics.

Jeanpierre wrote:

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Rules wouldn't be needed if people were able to be decent.

Not trying to be obnoxious... but I don't agree with the literal meaning of this Rules partly make the game.

If everyone was decent, we'd all play by the same "decency". Same standards, same unspoken rules.
The fact that the rules need to be named means that we don't play with the same standards (some are ok with corpsecamping, some aren't, etc.).

Ohh certainly.

Muzjhath wrote:Back when armies ran agains each other most did die.

Actually, this is not the impression I had when reading articles of "ancient" battles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sabis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia
...
Well.. the list goes on, but these are 2 examples. Doesn't mean a complete slaughter didn't happen!

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

Jeanpierre wrote:

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Rules wouldn't be needed if people were able to be decent.

Not trying to be obnoxious... but I don't agree with the literal meaning of this Rules partly make the game.

If everyone was decent, we'd all play by the same "decency". Same standards, same unspoken rules.
The fact that the rules need to be named means that we don't play with the same standards (some are ok with corpsecamping, some aren't, etc.).

This is what I don't agree with. Corpsecamping, combat ressing, and spirit ressing aren't a problem until rules are made to forbid it and people can gain an advantage through doing it. If there are no rules, then there is no problem because everybody will do it. Surely? I also object to the idea that killing someone who's trying to regroup for a second assault is indecent.

And JP is correct, until WW1 battles were surprisingly 'safe' affairs.

Okay, this has gone on long enough.

I advise you guys to make a thread of your own to discuss world pvp in a more general tone. This thread is about the campaign.

Gnash wrote:This thread is about the campaign.

And Stormwind RP!

But... Gnash.. I was wondering for the final bit of the campaign if there would be more inter-faction RP prepared? And... if we have some ideas... How do we ping the interest on Horde side?

What kind of inter-faction RP could there be?

Parley!

Wouldn't that be cross-faction?

I think the inter is used like in intersection.
And I wonder if a parley wouldn't just end in more fighting

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
And I wonder if a parley wouldn't just end in more fighting

Well probably.. maybe.. maybe not. But I wouldn't mind actually seeing the RP side from "the other team" for a change.

I did discuss something like a parley with Jomir but he didn't seem up for it at the time. I wouldn't mind insulting you in your faces without fearing repercussions though ;D I'd suggest that you prod Jomir with a sharp stick about this.

You should definately have two leaders from each ride ride ahead of each army and discuss before the fight, just for the cool factor.
Drama incoming for who should be in those spots. dun dun dun

Gnash wrote: I wouldn't mind insulting you in your faces without fearing repercussions though ;D

You know what... I may hold you to that.. some day