Varian Wrynn, King of Stormwind; Leader of the Alliance?

Similar to my Garrosh thread I want to get opinions on the frankly warmongering ways of Varian Wrynn, an excerpt from 'The Shattering' the prelude novel to Cataclysm reads that, "Varian Wrynn is considering violent action in response to mounting tensions between the Alliance and the Horde, a hard-line approach that threatens to alienate those closest to him, including his son, Anduin." With talk in Cataclysm of civil unrest in Stormwind due to his actions of war, do you think Varian is the right man to 'lead' the Alliance? Or is another hero more suited? Or perhaps you think he's entirely capable and does what needs doing? The point of these threads is to create genuine debates! Good healthy ones where people can exercise their logic and research skills.

Velen, because people don't seem to realise the guy has a good thirty thousand years of experience more than anything that has ever lived on Azeroth.

Like with the Hordeand Garrosh, I think that Varian is really the only one that can lead the alliance. It's no surprise that Stormwind is by far the largest of the nations in the alliance, it is also the richest (shortly followed by Ironforge) and now the one most involved in the war effort. Therefore, regardless wha the other races feel and want, humanity's desires will take precendent simply by their sheer numbers and influence.

So what does humanity want? I think it's fairly simple: They want blood. They want revenge. The people in Stormwind have never gotten justice for their dead loved ones, all the guilty were either killed by the orcs/demons (Gul'Dan, Blackhand, Grom) or died in obscurity (Orgrim, Kargath, Killrog), leaving the people of Stormwind without the satisfaction of justice or revenge. Just a empty hate for the orcs. In their hearts, I think that the orcs have always been the true enemy of the people of Stormwind (like the undead are for the people of Lordaeron).
A leader that allows them to strike back and punish the horde, that's a leader that will recieve a lot of support.

As for the other species, what they think?
Magni issued a "imperial decree" to reclaim the Alterac valley from the orcs, the dwarves have been de facto at war with the orcs since "vanilla". Now that the dragonmaw clan joins the horde, the dwarves will just be more inclined to war than before.

The night elves have also been de facto at war with the orcs, with an official branch of the army (unlike the dwarves, which sent troops sa loan to the Stormpikes) engaging the orcs. They're probably just happy that the humans "are finally doing something useful".

The gnomes, well... the gnomes are a very small group and big friends with everyone in the alliance (on their side at least). They'll go whichever way the wind points.

The draenei would probably be the only ones that advocate some sort of peace, and that's not even sure considering what the orcs did. But hey're too new and too alien to have any real influence over anyone. The only ones they have real influence with is the night elves... whom doesn't share their religion.

As for non-stormwind humans? Like the arathorian's who have hammerfall and surroundongs occupied by the orcs? Lordaerani who see the forsaken having taken their homes. Gilneans who will soon see the horde invade? What do you think they think? "About the bloody time you guys realised what was going on".

As for leaders... as I said, Varian's the only real option. The dwarven leadership is split, there's the monarchist's who support Moira (who also have the support of Dark Iron, which she'll use for good old political terror). The traditionalist's that support Muradin. The wildhammers and pro-wildhammers supporting Falstadd. There's no cohesion among the dwarves themselves and there's no way they could lead.

The gnomes... well noone listens to the gnomes anyways. No, not even the gnomes themselves. Given how recently reclaimed gnomeregan will be, they'll be busy rebuilding anyways, they don't have the time to lead.

The night elves, too strange for the eastern kingdom lighties. Not that the elves are that fond of their eastern allies, it's an alliance-partner of convenience and as such ill-suited to lead. While everyone could benefit from elven wisdom, there's a chance that elven arrogance will ruin it all.

As for Velen, he and his people are simply alien. And I mean that in the true sense of the word, not as in thing from space (and certainly not xenomorph). They are too strange and too odd. They don't think like the rest of the alliance and the rest of the alliance don't think like them.

Ultimately, Varian is the only realistic option. As for the ruin on the economy, that's what war does. It's unavoidable in the time.

You'll find in cataclysm many people are angry towards Varian because of his policy of war against the horde, so many Stormwinders are now bums (and turn Defias) because they couldn't afford the war tax, also with him taking other races matters into his own hands (sending the SI:7 to kill Moira and kidnap a now 'neutral' Thrall) he is treading on thin ice, however, he is a leader just like Garrosh, who can rally his people to war as well and boost their motivation in battle, and from the videos such as him and bennedictus, he is very passionate and not just a 'RARGH! KILL THE HORDE! MAY THE DEATH GOD TAKE YOU ALL YA BASTARDS!'

My two cents? I think he's just as good/flawed as Garrosh

Cataclysm has upset the balance of power and economic landscape. Stormwind City had to contend with a huge influx of refugees: Arathorian, Lordaeronean and now Gilnean. Night elves have been losing their core lands to the Orcs. Dwarves had to contend with a civil war of sorts, and mounting burden of contributing to the Alliance war-effort (as you moticed, most 'alliance soldiers' are Humans and Dwarves). In my eyes only two strategies are feasable for the alliance - focus on protection of the core territories and solving internal strife while using Garrosh' leadership to ferment unrest within the Horde, or to win the war by a swift strike at the heart of the horde.

Defencist attitude is bad for morale, as Garrosh will keep pounding and that will greatly upset the people, especially on the frontiers, who suffer daily and 'alliance does nothing to avenge them'. Therefore, alliance took the only alternative and made a sort of Blitzkrieg right into the Barrens (probably intending to knock tauren out of the war and take Orgrimmar 'by christmas'), and kidnap Thrall (to make sure Garrosh' rule of the horde is final and dissent kicks in, as nobody will just sit and hope that Thrall is be back). And, there is only one person who can keep the ruthless pressure on the horde going - Varian Wrynn.

Jaina Proudmoore will not be able to commit 'war crimes' needed to properly push towards Orgrimmar and ferment unrest in the horde, Dwarven leadership is divided, Tyrande does not command respect Varian does, Velen is not committed to ruthless war and gnome is...well...gnome.

Another interessting solution would be to make Tirion Fordring the leader of the Alliance, as his goals are undisputably pure, he does not have a reputation of a horde-hater and can be trusted to fight for Peace. So him being the Leader, he might actually pull off a Defencist strategy, incite former Argent Crusaders on the horde side into forming a 'pro-peace' movement and actually succeed in making a Truce with the horde and defeating Deathwing. Tirion and Eitrigg and horde Argents working side by side will make Garrosh look ridiculously crude and no doubt force a swift deposal.

Poppycock! Dwarven leadership isn't divided, it's a council of the heads of the three clans. If anything Dwarven society is nore more united than ever before!

Question: If Magni was still the ruler and not a statue, what are peoples thoughts on him?

Half the Dark Iron dwarves violently oppose the union and continue waging war. "more united than ever before!" indeed.

Of course it is Saevir, do you not think that having the Wildhammers and half the dark irons is better than having none then?

The best defence is a good offence! But seriously, Warcraft has been all about Orcs vs Humans since WC1, the other races are just sidekicks. I'm sure the other racial leaders have their say in it as well, but when it comes down on it they will follow, the Humans are the glue of the Alliance.

True, but we can dream right?

Why Varian Wrynn is better than Garrosh, and why he should lead the Alliance: http://www.wow.com/2009/04/26/varian-wrynn-is-right/

The problem I see with the dwarves, Jomir, is not that the clans are "united", but the old hatreds left from the war of three hammers (which was ~230 years ago, many of the dwarves that fought will be alive and now old enough to be in very influental positions in society).

One have to remember that the three clans split over fundamental differences in culture. The traditionalist and highly hierarchic Bronzebeards, the innovative and morally flexible Dark Irons and the indivdiualistic and free Wildhammers. Furtehr worsened by that they don't share religion, while all have a splash of titan worship in there, the other aspects are major. Bronzebeards being majority of the Light, Wildhammers being shamanistic and Dark Iron being elemental worshippers. While the titanism have been strengthened lately and likely works as a unifying trait, there's still going to be difficulties.

Now, if we discuss it clan by clan. The Dark Iron have not completely joined up behind Moira, many still absolutely refuse to be ruled from Ironforge. Those who have however bring their culture with them.
They are a clan willing to take what they want, something that will step on many Bronzebeard toes who think that such things should be deserved not taken. They actively embrace arcane and fel-magic, the former is distrusted by the Bronzebeards and the latter traditionally forbidden. They are rather proud of their militaristic traditions, something they share with their cousins but every victory Dark Iron made was at the expense of Bronzebeard and Wildhammer. If they boast and brag, and being dwarves they will, they'll also indirectly (or directly) boast and brag on how they killed your ancestors. The wildhammers in particular will absolutely love to hear how skilled the Dark Iron were when they took Grim Batol, I'm sure.

Now, the Wildhammers are also a bit different. They're not as industrial and rigid as the Bronzebeards, but share the honour-system and much morality. They'll have less problems than the Dark iron will, but there will be problems. One problem I can anticipate is that they are shamanistic and work a lot with the elements, something the Bronzebeards will have little understanding with when the world starts becoming torn apart by just that (not to mention that some dwarves probably will have learned that the elementals and Titans were enemies, and will try to "educate" their cousins about this). Not to mention that the wildhammers have for many many years adapted to an enviroment where they can roam, not sit and get drunk inside some big smoggy mountain.

And then there's the Bronzebeards... who I think will start to see a split among themselves. Remember that the dwarves think a lot of bloodline and patriarchially so Moira's son, the heir apparent, is not just the grandson of Magni. But the son of Dagran Thaurissian. They will be ruled by not just a Dark Iron, but a Thaurissian! Some will be appalled by this and actively work so Muradin or Brann gets the throne instead (and this group will probably split between the brothers too, not agreeing on whom is best). Then there'l be the ones who dislike the thought of being ruled by a Dark Iron, but thinks that the throne is his by right and will fight to protect his claim.
Then there'll be ones that think that clan Dark Iron/wildhammer have the right idea and that the Bronzebeards should adapt to their ways. And others who think that Dark Iron/Wildhammer should be educated to become "proper" dwarves.

It's all just a big powder-keg. There's plenty of fuel to start big fights and riots... All it takes is that someone by mistake says the wrong thing or being brutally honest and open about their thoughts. You know... the stuff dwarves tend to do when drunk...

Minor correction: Dark Irons didn't manage to take Grim Batol. They broke the gates and got their magic shadows in to scare the defenders, but they got driven out by the Wildhammers and their general killed. Grim Batol got abandoned though because of the taint of magic that the Dark Irons left.

I think he makes an excellent leader, even though he has 0 charisma(Yes his face) his cropped up anger compensates. Ontop of all that he also replaces an underaged boy that I cant stand.

Either way, it's bound to get interesting...

Follow-Up: Jaina Proudmoore, Once De Facto Leader of the Humans and the Alliance, think she and Varian will be getting.. closer?

Personally I think Varian and Garrosh will add extra spice to WoW, as opinions will stop being bland and things so good. Finally we'll get in touch with grey stuff and morally questionable things!

WoW factions will stop being boring and people will stop being able to say "Horde isn't evil! It's the Alliance" and for the Horde "Alliance only attacks us cause we attack!" with a hard-core war the pro-Horde stuff that currently goes on will no longer be an issue! <3

It'll be awesome. The new setting will be great in my opinion! GO VARIAN! AND GO GARROSH! You are how an orc is supposed to be! Hot-tempered, ready and eager for war!

Varian is pure win. Nuff said. We need more warmongering against the greenskins and the zombies! HURR!

Gahalla wrote:
The gnomes, well... the gnomes are a very small group and big friends with everyone in the alliance (on their side at least). They'll go whichever way the wind points.

Gahalla wrote:
The gnomes... well noone listens to the gnomes anyways. No, not even the gnomes themselves. Given how recently reclaimed gnomeregan will be, they'll be busy rebuilding anyways, they don't have the time to lead.

Sophyra wrote:gnome is...well...gnome.

I am offended how everyone seems to think us Gnomes are lesser beings (and more than just in height)! Who provides you with most of your mechanical constructs? Who is the most technologically advanced race (therefore, having a huge advantage over the Horde Lore-wise - who care little about technology)? Who created a danged city full of mechanical gears, whirring cogs, mechanical novelties etc. while the rest of Alliance had just discovered the uses of Gunpowder? Not the Night Elves, Not the Draenei, nor the Humans or Dwarves - it be the Gnomes!

Now, to elaborate on this quote by quote: "They'll go whichever way the wind points"? I can't really deny that as, I agree, it does have a sense on truth. Being incredibly friendly with the Dwarves (due to us owing them a favour in return for a home), we follow them along regardless of their aims. Think USA (Dwarves) and the UK (Gnomes), we are in no position thus far to be disloyal to them - and doing so without having a place to stay or a half-decent military force would probably get our species extinct...

"No-one listens to Gnomes, not even themselves"? I beg to differ. Gnomes listen almost predominantly to the High Tinker and the Tinker's Court. The only exception to this (much like with any other race and politics) is if they were to full-out betray their kinsmen and become cultists of sorts. The rest of the Alliance, on the otherhand, sadly take us for granted - but they would most certainly speak up were we to take away our mechanical help, thus, I view it them needing our help as much as we need theirs. Even more so if we were to consort with the Horde (The two advantages Alliance has over Horde are Magic and Technology. With the introduction of Blood Elves and Goblins, both Horde and Alliance will be on an equal playing field (as we get Draenei and Worgen to compensate for strength); if the Gnomes were to betray the Alliance, they'd be at a severe technological disadvantage). As for their rebuilding and "not having the time to lead", I think the reclamation of Gnomeregan would be a perfect time to lead - Giving the rest of the Alliance ways to defend their cities with vastly improved technological inventions (Automatic turrets, anyone?), whilst trying to negotiate with the Horde (as the Gnomes have few grudges with any race other than the Goblins) and conscripting Alliance Men into construction workers/engineers to continue work on the new city. Similarly to what happened with Stormwind when it was destroyed and rebuilt, except the Gnomes would actually pay their workers.

"Gnome is a Gnome" is exactly the reason they should be in power. Gnomes are, with all respect to other races, the most intelligent, tactical and advanced 'mastermind' race of the Alliance (did I mention unbiased, also?). Therefore, in my eyes, it is perfectly suited to lead.

Gahalla wrote:
And then there's the Bronzebeards... who I think will start to see a split among themselves. Remember that the dwarves think a lot of bloodline and patriarchially so Moira's son, the heir apparent, is not just the grandson of Magni. But the son of Dagran Thaurissian. They will be ruled by not just a Dark Iron, but a Thaurissian! Some will be appalled by this and actively work so Muradin or Brann gets the throne instead (and this group will probably split between the brothers too, not agreeing on whom is best). Then there'l be the ones who dislike the thought of being ruled by a Dark Iron, but thinks that the throne is his by right and will fight to protect his claim.

This thought brings me back to when I used to play Dragon Age. More accurately, the Orzammar questline. Ah, nostalgia...

It was revolved around two nobles, the King's Son and the King's First-Man, vying for power - the city split in half, public fights frequently by both sides, The City Guard having a heck of a job keeping control etc. It would be good to see such a thing here.

--------------------------------

My own thoughts on what Blizzard are doing here is that they attempt to slowly sever the links each race has with one another in an attempt to, in the future, make each and every race "individual" in a free-for-all scrap for power, resources and gold. It seems to me that, when this time comes, they will completely re-vamp Azeroth once again - adding an approximately equal amount of places for each sub-faction, making the only safe place to communicate in Faction-Neutral Cities. At this point, the Language System they have wanted to implement for a long while will finally be implemented, and people can study and train each an every available language (as, at that point, it would make no difference). Sadly (or gladly?), this would make PvE realms extremely safe in comparison to the insane PvP-Realm alternative... Not to mention, the only way I see this viable is if they (lore-wise) explain raiding Dungeons, PvP and such as to be done by a variety of "mercenary groups" aiding whichever faction may be involved etc.

Etular wrote:

My own thoughts on what Blizzard are doing here is that they attempt to slowly sever the links each race has with one another in an attempt to, in the future, make each and every race "individual" in a free-for-all scrap for power, resources and gold. It seems to me that, when this time comes, they will completely re-vamp Azeroth once again - adding an approximately equal amount of places for each sub-faction, making the only safe place to communicate in Faction-Neutral Cities. At this point, the Language System they have wanted to implement for a long while will finally be implemented, and people can study and train each an every available language (as, at that point, it would make no difference). Sadly (or gladly?), this would make PvE realms extremely safe in comparison to the insane PvP-Realm alternative... Not to mention, the only way I see this viable is if they (lore-wise) explain raiding Dungeons, PvP and such as to be done by a variety of "mercenary groups" aiding whichever faction may be involved etc.

That doesn't really strike me as a money making idea with the least amount of effort.

Just sayin.

Anaei/Vezullia wrote:
That doesn't really strike me as a money making idea with the least amount of effort.

Just sayin.

It may not have the "least amount of effort", but as a money-making idea it most certainly appeals to me.

In my eyes, if such an idea was done, it would be in one of the last expansions for the very reason that such a job would be very time-consuming.

Final expansion, every race for themselves, faction barriers broken down, languages trainable, you can group/talk/ally/kill whoever you please. Total chaos, rampage and mayhem. Only safety is through guilds and alliances that you have to forge yourself.

Yes, I like the idea. However, not gonna happen!

Also, Varian is awesome.

World of Warcraft -needs- Varian and Garrosh both. I love Tirion Fordring, I love Jaina, I love Thrall, -but- if they get their way WoW is going to be bland. It ain't bloody World of Peacecraft. The Horde and the Alliance are simply not meant to co-exist, simple as that. Varian is the realistic hero. He can't just brush aside his anger and vengeance for the sake of the greater good. As for war ruining the economy? No, I think not. History proves time and time again that nothing boosts an economy like brawling with the neighbors.

In fact Etular, it is the Dwarves who create the useful mechanical objects, aka war machines.