[A] Chapter of Holy Anethion on Trial!

I am angry cause the verdict didn't make any sense to the Stormwind laws and punishments. And even so, going "Np, our abbot will pay that, and we go get the rights from some of our friends right away", is kinda ridiculing the fact people spent weeks on preparing this for the Chapters sake.

My final word.

I was asked by the creator of the event (Imanuel) to put up a -fair- prosecution (In his own words according to stormwind law) given the evidence we had and the testimonies to once and for all put an end to everything going on.

I then spent the full week putting everything together and building a prosecution case on behalf of the kingdom (NOT THE OOC COUNCIL).

Now during the trial I played the prosecution. Picked relevant witnesses that a prosection would naturally pick, those being ex members of the chapter order that had witnessed first hand some or all of the charges against them. I also brought up a member of the church of holy light to question thier faith and teachings. I attained nearly 15 sustained objections and discredited two of what looked to be key witnesses in one statement.

I got a standing ovation from the courtroom.

After it was all done, the shit flinging started when I stated that as a polite reminder this is a case according to stormwind law as per the organiser and founder of chaptarian lore and the guild itself. And the reasons we are all here is because that some of the things that made the chapter unique as a 'light' based guild are the reasons they have ended up in court.

I then got told OOC'ly to fuck off. And I then left the event.

I am quite simply tired.. I no longer have the patience nor the will to carry on doing things like this. I would much rather prefer to be doing things I want to and need to, such as working my arse off trying to organise RP and events for SI:7 agents.

I am for those that know me, one of the most reasonable people you could possibly meet, moreso then most. However, as stated I simply now do not wish to waste my time any longer with something that over the course of the past months.. no longer become fun.

I am tired.. spent and wishing to focus on the things I need to.

That.. is all

You can hardly justify this with "Rp is dying", jeez.

The fact remains that the punishment did in no way fit the crime here, I think thats been made rather clear.

I think in the best interests of everyone this topic is becoming ooc flame war, I reccomend locking it for the best interest of everyone.

I'm only seeing flaming from Mordov and Gideon. The rest of us are actually discussing/debating the whole thing. Healthy debate doesn't always have to dwindle into a pissing match.

This needs to be properly discussed, because it's a topic of great confusion/sighing for many people.

..If I would be flaming..you'd notice but yeaah... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyYaPWasos

*Rubs bee stings with a sponge* fuuu..

I feel like I should clarify why the judges decided to do what what we did.

Right. I'm locking this thread. If you got issues. Take it with me. Everything thats been said has been said. It's obvious this will not go anywhere. Maybe when the air clears you can all book a room together and make up.


EDIT:
Disregard that. Let it continue if constructive. I've just been responding to the higher up.

It shouldn't be a topic of great debate, it is over imo it was ment to end with last nights trial and everyone moves on, why can't everyone just move one must one misguided comment put everyone into an uproar over a fairly minor thing? We didn't get the punishment some people wanted us to get were sorry nothing we can do it about it now and no point complaining about it as its probably not going to change, if you don't like it avoid us all you want but I personally think on a guild front we fit in lore and do our job well and provide occasional fun rp. If you guys do not think that Ohh well but I do not want anymore ooc shit over all of this last night was ment to finish it.
I have spoken to Jayse and Geldar and as far as I am concerned it is done and was done the second the verdict came out.

Thanks to JAyse Geldar Terenor, the Shields and everyone involved I had a fun week in jail and fun at the trial. I though defense and prosecution didd well and both enjoyed it, up until the end.

End of story as far as I am concerned

<3 for everyone.

This is hardly minor though. This was supposed to provide some form of relief after the last six months of RP between the chapter and everyone else. Instead it was.. slaps on the wrists and detention at best.

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:This is hardly minor though. This was supposed to provide some form of relief after the last six months of RP between the chapter and everyone else. Instead it was.. slaps on the wrists and detention at best.

So your basically pissed with our punishment ?

This requires Captain Obvious to come in imo

Osmand wrote:

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:This is hardly minor though. This was supposed to provide some form of relief after the last six months of RP between the chapter and everyone else. Instead it was.. slaps on the wrists and detention at best.

So your basically pissed with our punishment ?

Yes, to be blunt. There was too much presented in that case, considering bugger all besides testimonies exist in WoW. And after all of that your punishment was -that- mild?

I knew when I volunteered for this case that it would be one of those " impossible to please everyone" situations, it simply couldn't be done. Which is precisely why I chose -not- to hide behind an alt.I thought that you deserved to know who I was and that I wasn't hiding behind a veil of anonymity

Do the punishments given match those written in the laws? No they do not.
Those laws are written to suit individuals, not entire organizations.

Let's take whipping for example:
Do I whip the leaders? every single member? just the "guilty" ones? (and who would that be? five, ten, 20 members?)
And would it work? It's a guild that reportedly practice self flagellation, would whipping even deter them from further crime?

Out of a legal perspective, what is more important: satiating blood-lust or preventing the criminals from doing harm again?
And more importantly it would set a precedent for future trials. The sentences given here will partially determine future sentences. If I punish them extremely harshly for what they were indeed found guilty of (which is not as much as people seem to believe) then should I be as harsh for every instance where a large group of guild members acts violently? I might add that this means that many guild, even very popular ones, stand at constant risk of being very harshly judged every single time they step slightly out of line.

So we decided, that instead of giving them physical and public humiliation (which we deemed not only risky but ineffective), we gave them restrictions that IC significantly limits their power and ability to harm others.

*We took away their weapons in a city where everyone is armed! (I do realize that I should have been more clear, they will need permission from a captain for every instance in which they require a weapon. The permissions are not standing)

*We took away their ability to publicly spread their faith, without permission. This significantly reduce their ability to harm, harass other. As well as their influence and ability to gain new recruits.

*We force them to report, to give them accountability towards the church.

* And finally a monetary compensation. 30,000 pieces of gold is not a small sum, it's something that IC (in our mind) should take many many years to pay.

It's not a slap on the wrist. It's akin to ruining them and placing them under "house arrest".
That is how we think it should be interpreted anyways.

Remember that this trial is regarding the Organization as a whole, every single acting member. Regardless whether or not you joined yesterday or had been in it from the start. They all have varying degrees of guilt, so who do you blame? How do you apply the punishment? Who do you punish? All these question were in mind during the entire trial.

While we didn't punish them as exactly written in the law we used the law to determine guilt or not, to the letter.

That is all I am going to say about the verdict itself, now you have the motivation behind it. I will say nothing more about it OOC. Maybe you agree, maybe you do not (and if you disagree I'm sorry to hear that) I honestly tried to make it appropriate and achievable.

That said: I will welcome both positive and negative IC reactions towards Terenor about this.
As I've said I had a good time and I once again thank everyone involved. I honestly hope that we can all go on and have a good time role-playing from this point onward. I look forward to seeing you all in-game.

Thank you.

Terenor wrote:*We took away their weapons in a city where everyone is armed! (I do realize that I should have been more clear, they will need permission from a captain for every instance in which they require a weapon. The permissions are not standing)

Aye, think that's going to need IC clarification, since the case I saw was a Chapter member asking Tyross for permission to carry his weapons all the time, indefinitely, and it was granted. No offence to Tyross, just pointing that out as a definite example that the issue wasn't understood properly by many of us.

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:

Osmand wrote:

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:This is hardly minor though. This was supposed to provide some form of relief after the last six months of RP between the chapter and everyone else. Instead it was.. slaps on the wrists and detention at best.

So your basically pissed with our punishment ?

Yes, to be blunt. There was too much presented in that case, considering bugger all besides testimonies exist in WoW. And after all of that your punishment was -that- mild?

Presented ? We validly discredited all witnesses, most of the testimonies were during the term of Dragomir or Immanuel and you feel that we should all punished for stuff like htat ? half of us werent in the guild then ?

And dont let your ic dissapointment with trial go ooc thats just silly

.. why are you assuming I'm dragging IC disappointment into OOC? I haven't even mentioned Omanos and if you must know, he pretty much predicted something like this.

But, as I said earlier. You are in the chapter -now-, the order was being trialled. So, yes, by default those crimes are reflected upon anyone that wears that tabard.

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:.. why are you assuming I'm dragging IC disappointment into OOC? I haven't even mentioned Omanos and if you must know, he pretty much predicted something like this.

But, as I said earlier. You are in the chapter -now-, the order was being trialled. So, yes, by default those crimes are reflected upon anyone that wears that tabard.

Terenor made the valid point you cannot punish individuals and there was still an air of doubt about some of those crimes etc, i feel the punsihment will be effective I see no problem with it and can see no reason why it is even still being discussed

Each count could have easily been placed on each member individually, I respect the fact they weren't, since you'd have all been lashed to death effectively.

And well, it's being discussed because people do not agree with it. *shrug*

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:Each count could have easily been placed on each member individually, I respect the fact they weren't, since you'd have all been lashed to death effectively.

And well, it's being discussed because people do not agree with it. *shrug*

each account couldnt have, I will tell you right no basically IC and OOC osmand has never done any of the things he was charged with to the best of my knowledge theirfore osmand would be innocent on all accounts no punishment, half the guild would get away with no punishment then while the other half would prob die and the other half being all of our leaders and officers...ohh there we go death of chapter that is what would happen

In the case of the weapons, it will be very simple for them to just ask some friends that play guard officials. Solved. Better would be if the verdict said they had to discuss their rights of weaponry with a Minister of Defense (which I know we do not have as of yet, but by the time they should even need to carry a weapon for one reason or another, there would be).

And with the money, surely you saw yourself "Good thing we have our Abbot to pay that". Like it was nothing. I agree that it would take years and years to pay that, for nearly anyone. So I'm not sure its the sentence as a whole people are really upset about, but the disrespect it was shown, as if it was not really a punishment at all.

Saihna/Julia wrote:In the case of the weapons, it will be very simple for them to just ask some friends that play guard officials. Solved. Better would be if the verdict said they had to discuss their rights of weaponry with a Minister of Defense (which I know we do not have as of yet, but by the time they should even need to carry a weapon for one reason or another, there would be).

And with the money, surely you saw yourself "Good thing we have our Abbot to pay that". Like it was nothing. I agree that it would take years and years to pay that, for nearly anyone. So I'm not sure its the sentence as a whole people are really upset about, but the disrespect it was shown, as if it was not really a punishment at all.

We are not going to meta game and get all our friends to give us weapons have a bit of trust in us maybe ? again one member said that so don't shit on our guild over one statement and it is a fact the abbot would pay for it as our members do not carry much money ic as we are monks and holy soldiers.

Its not disrespect for our punishment we have accepted it its everyone else that seems to have such a big issue with it.

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:Each count could have easily been placed on each member individually, I respect the fact they weren't, since you'd have all been lashed to death effectively.

And well, it's being discussed because people do not agree with it. *shrug*

I think, such case, would actually be against the law. A trial, which the sentence in the end of it is against the law wouldn't make so much sense.

@Sai- ever thought that was said -ICly- in order to spirit up -ICly- the order? Ever thought, that deep inside ICly, and certainly all over oocly, the Chapter relise its planty to pay and it will affect their roleplay? Or is it by default that what is said ICly is the opinion and actually reaction towards the case, for you?

Could someone post some screenshots if they took any? I'd like to see if people are over-reacting over one 'fuck off' or the entire case went berserk after the 'fuck off'

Osmand, honestly, you cannot say you got punished enough for what the Chapter did.