Power imbalances in RP due to classes?

An issue that's debated quite thoroughly I'd imagine is how far can one go with their class abilities in RP before being considered overpowered? As a rogue, I run into this problem quite often when using stealth. Many people claim that stealth should only be used as sneaking. I have a number of arguments that, as far as I'm concerned, invalidate this opinion however. The first thing I'd like to point out, is the immense abilities of many many mages I've ran into during RP; from gnomes who can slip off into the astral plane (invisibility) to those who can protect themselves with shields of ice that can withhold the blast of an explosive to those who can shoot giant fireballs with ease. As a rogue, how is it in anyway unfair to be able to slip off into the shadows when engaging such a foe? Without it, it's pretty much impossible to defeat such an enemy. Then you have warriors walking around like giant tin cans with armour that can't be penetrated by a blade and paladins who, in addition to the armour, can heal themselves! The fact is, if someone can shoot fireballs and bolts of ice at you, teleport 20 yards ahead of themselves and freeze you in-place or set you on fire with a flick of their wrists then it's not really possible to defeat them without superhuman strength/speed/agility etc. Based on that, I think that rogues being able to slip off into the shadows really -isn't- unfair, OP or whatever else you want to call it in the slightest; you can still hear their breathing, footsteps etc. Now, I'm NOT saying that they should have the ability to become completely invisible in plain sight.. I think that if they're within 10 yards or so of the target then they should be seen.

"Rogues are Azeroth’s legerdemains." - Wow Wiki.
"Legerdemain -magic trick: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers" - Wordnetweb

The above implies that rogues are capable of illusion. Therefore, is stealth not an illusion rather than magic? Based on that, becoming unseen really isn't far fetched. Furthermore, we see in game mechanics/spells like the following:

Shadowstep: Attempts to step through the shadows and reappear behind your target.
Cloak of Shadows: Instantly removes all existing harmful spell effects and increases your chance to resist all spells.
Killing Spree: Step through the shadows from enemy to enemy.

Now, I'm not for a moment suggesting that rogues should be able to "remove all harmful effects" - don't misinterpret that. What I would like to point out is that in-game when the spell is used, you can see the rogue become enshrouded in shadows that completely resemble a priests Shadow Form. To me, this suggests that rogues are able to manipulate shadows. As for Shadowstep and Killing Spree, I believe they show that stealth is not intended to be used as only "sneaking" by the game designers because if you were simply sneaking, you wouldn't be able to step through the shadows from 25 yards away!

One argument against the use of stealth in this manner is that "rogues can just appear behind you and kill you instantly!" - While I acknowledge such an issue is valid and that it's a very good point, it's completely nullified by the fact that the victim can hear the rogues footsteps, breathing, clinking of blades etc, and that the victim can quite easily move out of the way to avoid the attack.. for example they could jump aside, or roll forwards or spin around, aiming a swift elbow towards their attacker's head! There's a whole range of things they can do, and I see mages teleporting (blinking) behind a target without anyone complaining, so what exactly is the difference? Claiming that rogues have no affiliation with magic and should therefore be unable to step through shadows is completely ridiculous, as the game mechanics clearly state otherwise. Don't interpret this as me saying we should be able to use all game mechanics in RP - it would be somewhat imbalanced if paladins could bubble and be immune to all attacks for 12 seconds while they continue to assault a target. Or if rogues could actually use Killing Spree, appearing behind target after target, attacking them one after the other like that. I simply think that most game mechanics should be allowed - personally, I look disdainfully upon those who quite blandly say "/e vanishes, disappearing from sight" or "/e casts divine shield, making him immune to all attacks for 12 seconds".. I do however think it's completely reasonable to use game mechanics in RP if they're properly explained in detail.. for example "/e abruptly pulls a small black ball from a pouch attached to his belt. He throws it to the floor, grinning as smoke begins to rapidly pour out, most likely hindering <target's> view. He takes his chance to attempt to slip away into the shadows." - I would deem that completely reasonable. In addition to my prior arguments, I believe that using the game mechanics/spells created by the game designers is even more legit than creating your own spells - not to condemn being creative and making your own unique spells/abilities, whether that be firing needles of ice or whatever else your scintillating minds can muster up!

One argument I've heard is that it's "unfair" on lower level rogues when stealthed is used in this manner, but when it comes, in my opinion, the higher level has worked to attain that level and any benefits he gains from it shouldn't be frowned upon by those too lazy to level. That said, I don't think that level should really have any effect on combat in RP - IC, "levels" do not exist - the level 10's character's back story could've been one of great endeavour and strength while the level 80's character might be puny and weak IC.

Finally, I am against the use of stealth in some situations - for example if you're in broad daylight in the middle of an open field then stealth, quite obviously, isn't an option. However, I do think that if you're in quite a dense area or if it's fairly dark then it should be acceptable. In addition, if you're behind a target then stealth should be allowed too - it makes no difference anyway, it just prevents them from "co-incidentally" (emphasis on the quotation marks) turning around right when you're behind him.

I know this thread had a more generic title and I specifically covered the ability to use stealth in RP but, since I've been playing a rogue recently, it's something that I'd like to discuss and debate with the RP community. Your opinions/comments?

Stealth RP?.. Ask Jayse

Mandui wrote:Stealth RP?.. Ask Jayse

Did you read all of my arguments, or just the first paragraph? :p

Tírius wrote:
Did you read all of my arguments, or just the first paragraph? :p

Ask him, stop asking me!

Mandui wrote:

Tírius wrote:
Did you read all of my arguments, or just the first paragraph? :p

Ask him, stop asking me!

Just wondering what your personal opinion on the matter is

It is not so much the abilities or spells that matter, it are the people behind it and how they play out those abilities.

Dorik Thunderbelly wrote:It is not so much the abilities or spells that matter, it are the people behind it and how they play out those abilities.

Care to elaborate? Like give a scenario that you would deem unacceptable and a similar one you would see as acceptable.

You name divine shield, in my experience that is highly frowned upon if used.

that the victim can hear the rogues footsteps, breathing, clinking of blades etc

I thought the point with a rogue is that you don't notice they are there untill you are dead?

Anyway, in a way, every ability should be able to be used as long as it can be countered. Like, if you can predict where a mage will blink, wouldn't it be awesome to have a blade ready there so the mage blinks into it?


Edit: easy to say for a belf i know *arcane torrents the pesky casters*

Well I can conjure fire and demons from the nether.. I think letting a few rogues pop out of the shadows here and there isn't too over powered.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:You name divine shield, in my experience that is highly frowned upon if used.

that the victim can hear the rogues footsteps, breathing, clinking blades etc

I thought the point with a rogue is that you don't notice they are there untill you are dead?

Aye, but it that were the case, they'd be very OP in RP because you'd have to be superhuman to react in time to defend yourself from a blade being thrust into your back from point blank range out of no where with no warnings at all.

As for Divine Shield, I've been told about members of DoL using it in the past, and I've definitely seen a Crimson Flame and a Chapterian use it before.

I have learned that stealth, as it indicates since it got nothing with shadows to do. Is for steathling/sneaking.


A dark corner of a room, hiding behind/in something. You're not invisible, you're sneaking.

You can't sneak on a plane ground, under bright lights, in broad day light etc. Yes they use "illusions", a smoke bomb. Its still not magic.

As for the CloS and stuff, people don't tend to use it without valid IC reasons, and that's also what I go with.

Killing Spree would be more like a highly trained move with a slight bit of magic(maybe), nothing a simple thug can do, but perhaps a skilled assassin?

Trave/Vargosh/Thandros wrote:I have learned that stealth, as it indicates since it got nothing with shadows to do. Is for steathling/sneaking.


A dark corner of a room, hiding behind/in something. You're not invisible, you're sneaking.

That makes the rogue class obsolete in RP - anyone can do that.

Trave/Vargosh/Thandros wrote:
You can't sneak on a plane ground, under bright lights, in broad day light etc. Yes they use "illusions", a smoke bomb. Its still not magic.

Yeah, like I said, using it in plain sight is obviously not an option, as no shadows are present. And I agree that stealth is by no means magic.

Trave/Vargosh/Thandros wrote:

As for the CloS and stuff, people don't tend to use it without valid IC reasons, and that's also what I go with.

Killing Spree would be more like a highly trained move with a slight bit of magic(maybe), nothing a simple thug can do, but perhaps a skilled assassin?

Yeah, I was just using CloS to point out that it can't be simply sneaking if rogues can enshroud themselves in shadows that remove harmful effects and/or help them to resist spells; sneaking doesn't do that

Indeed, the level of skill has to come into play - a common thug wouldn't be able to step through the shadows, while a master assassin or someone with a lot of training might be able to.

Trave/Vargosh/Thandros wrote:I have learned that stealth, as it indicates since it got nothing with shadows to do. Is for steathling/sneaking.


A dark corner of a room, hiding behind/in something. You're not invisible, you're sneaking.

You can't sneak on a plane ground, under bright lights, in broad day light etc. Yes they use "illusions", a smoke bomb. Its still not magic.

As for the CloS and stuff, people don't tend to use it without valid IC reasons, and that's also what I go with.

Killing Spree would be more like a highly trained move with a slight bit of magic(maybe), nothing a simple thug can do, but perhaps a skilled assassin?

Agreed
You don't pop up. You're not invisible. You just got a higher chance of being undetected due to your training alas - Silent sneaking, swifter reflexes and ability to hide. Being a rogue increases your chances ICly to be undetected during the right circumstances compared to any other class.

That is all.

Rest is just mechanics for balance, and flashy crap made for a more fun PvP/PvE - non RP oriented Experience.

Cloak of Shadows - That be more of a Lightslayer ability. But durr - if there are some proficent assassins and whatnot out there some could learn a few magical tricks or whatnot.

But overall - Using steath in arpee- Nein, nien ,nien. Lest you're properly hidden. ( And if you´re well hidden there should be nay need fer stealth ) And yes, one may understand the urge to mechanically stealth due to poweremoters or the ooc influence when one really notices you´re there.

But is lowering your qualities and standards justified for that? :I

I stealth then emote possible reasons for people to be suspicious.

I could go into more detail, but as Mandui said, Jayse has elaborated on the point effectively in the past. That's the ideal situation regarding stealth in my opinion.

And on the point of 'power imbalances'. Of course there are. Your 'average' Shaman and Warlocks are far more powerful than your average Joe Schmitt warrior.

I'm a bit indifferent about the whole stealth thing.

On one side I think it should be done normally like you would say in real life. And on the other side I think some magical illusion or however you want to word it can be used aswell as let's face it, we live in a world with sorcery and whatnot and I think people take the whole realism thing a bit too far when it comes to Warcraft. This is the lovely part about fantasy, imagination people! Aslong as it is in limits.

I stealth myself as if using the environment in a real life like way but don't use it as much even as I am a rogue. In regards to the mentioned abilities however:

Shadowstep; Why not? I would say this could be done easily ICly to "experienced rogues". I'll let Jayse cover this one for the whole rogue lore thing.
Cloak of Shadows; I've never had to use this one ICly HOWEVER I have had a situation on my warlock whom you may know as Ireth or not where I went through the ritual and materials for one of my "followers" to concieve a cloak that acted in the form of cloak of shadows. I wouldn't however be against the idea of drawing in the shadows to rid such abnormalities put on you aslong as it's RP'ed fairly. We afterall live in a world where you can divine shield and dance infront of Sargeras.
Killing Spree: Now I believe this is the one you need a magical affinity with and my rogue, Snow can use this one ICly however it should be used in a way that it expressed it can have it's downfall. Perhaps a severe strain or the like?

Point is rogues shouldn't feel "normalised" compared to all the other crap that goes on from mages, warlocks and whatnot. Rogues may not be all flashy and whatnot but hey they still got the inhumane stuff going on. They just present it in another light...Or lack of.

I give the original poster my full support.

You can't sneak on a plane ground, under bright lights, in broad day light etc. Yes they use "illusions", a smoke bomb. Its still not magic.

...Because blending with the crowds is not considered "sneaking" or "being stealthy"? True, anyone can blend with crowds, but only rogues can do so well. Rogues can use various props, such as (for example, I assume) smoke bombs of some sort etc.

Ovelia "Snow" Adair wrote:I'm a bit indifferent about the whole stealth thing.

On one side I think it should be done normally like you would say in real life. And on the other side I think some magical illusion or however you want to word it can be used aswell as let's face it, we live in a world with sorcery and whatnot and I think people take the whole realism thing a bit too far when it comes to Warcraft. This is the lovely part about fantasy, imagination people! Aslong as it is in limits.

I stealth myself as if using the environment in a real life like way but don't use it as much even as I am a rogue. In regards to the mentioned abilities however:

Shadowstep; Why not? I would say this could be done easily ICly to "experienced rogues". I'll let Jayse cover this one for the whole rogue lore thing.
Cloak of Shadows; I've never had to use this one ICly HOWEVER I have had a situation on my warlock whom you may know as Ireth or not where I went through the ritual and materials for one of my "followers" to concieve a cloak that acted in the form of cloak of shadows. I wouldn't however be against the idea of drawing in the shadows to rid such abnormalities put on you aslong as it's RP'ed fairly. We afterall live in a world where you can divine shield and dance infront of Sargeras.
Killing Spree: Now I believe this is the one you need a magical affinity with and my rogue, Snow can use this one ICly however it should be used in a way that it expressed it can have it's downfall. Perhaps a severe strain or the like?

Point is rogues shouldn't feel "normalised" compared to all the other crap that goes on from mages, warlocks and whatnot. Rogues may not be all flashy and whatnot but hey they still got the inhumane stuff going on. They just present it in another light...Or lack of.

I quite agree with you here. I think that a really big factor in this is down to whether you play a thug/thief or an assassin/master of the shadows. My character was trained by Garodin as a scout/assassin for the Kingdom of Arathor a long time ago, therefore I find it irritating when people whine about the use of stealth as anything other than simple sneaking - rogues specifically train themselves to become as "invisible" as possible, which can be seen in the subtlety tree with talents such as "Master of Deception" .. "Elusiveness", "Camouflage" etc etc.

I quite agree with you here. I think that a really big factor in this is down to whether you play a thug/thief or an assassin/master of the shadows.

That plays a large factor. Yes. There is a gap between those. A thug may have subtle means going on but they lack the discipline and perfection an assassin has gone through. So a large gap in abilities each can perform.

The classes are just like rock, paper scissor

Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper -> Rock -> Scissor -> Paper

All the way to the bank

I do see some imbalances in RP due to classes, most notably Hunter's being the worst off and Mage's being the best. With my Hunter, I eventually simply gave up RPing him as a hunter and switched to Warrior, as people would always claim a powerful bow would be incapable of piercing any armor, and that large guns would take good 10seconds or so to reload, and due to Hunter's being badly trained at melee, they would easily get up close and then just destroy me.

With Mages, I see them flicking there fingers and BOOM a spire of fire, flick there wrist and SMACK four sharp bolts of ice speeding towards you, etc etc...

Elízabéth Moren wrote:I do see some imbalances in RP due to classes, most notably Hunter's being the worst off and Mage's being the best. With my Hunter, I eventually simply gave up RPing him as a hunter and switched to Warrior, as people would always claim a powerful bow would be incapable piercing any armor, and that large guns would take good 10seconds or so to reload, and due to Hunter's being badly trained at melee, they would easily get up close and then just destroy me.

With Mages, I see them flicking there fingers and BOOM a spire of fire, flick there wrist and SMACK four sharp bolts of ice speeding towards you, etc etc...

That's exactly what I'm talking about! It's just so frustrating when you see a mage summoning water elementals to attack you while they fire hundreds of icy spikes towards you while simultaneously defending themselves with a shield of fire that can't be penetrated by gunfire. That may seem like an exaggeration, but that kinda thing happens a lot. It's pretty much impossible to do anything other than take the hits - how can you evade that without being OP? Then, people QQ when you use stealth - even at night and what not when the city is dark and there's shadows everywhere.

I once had an /e fight with a mage on Elizabeth, and, yah...

Spires of flame, mirror imaging, lots of spiky ice shards, ice walls, water elemental, craploads of Arcane moves, very powerful Fire spells, the power to capture me in ice and set me on fire, him having a mana shield, etc...

VS

Mind spells.

Take note, he cast an arcane spell on himself to protect himself from any spells to affect his mind. Woohoo. -.-

How about... *Stabs -Mage- several times in his chest, face and crotch*?

Im a priest. I have a dagger. He had a mana shield and a giant wall of ice infront of him.

Of course there is imbalance. But rp is so much more diverse. Like there could be a magi of one year experience and one of eighty. That eighty is gonna be so much bette rthan the one. And taht's one classes' superiority over another.

I dunno if this is the arugment i'm a bit pished. But i believe it is so!