Re: Regarding the Stormwind Crimes and Punishment

by **John Helsythe Amaltheria** Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:45 am

Necromancy
Summoning undead minions, attempting to reanimate corpses, or studying the rituals and methods of necromancy without the permission either of the Kirin Tor or the Stormwind Mage Tower.

Use of Forbidden Magic
The use of any magic drawn from demonic sources, pacts with demons or items related to them without the permission of either the Kirin Tor or the Stormwind Mage Tower. Additionally, the use of shadow magic within the city walls.

Summoning Demons
An act of summoning a demon within the Kingdom's limits, or bringing a demon into the Kingdom without permission of either the Kirin Tor or the Stormwind Mage Tower.

I'll use an example of a daily situation:

A death Knight riding a stead of archerus (spelling?) or forsaken warhorse, or however they call that undead horse ICly, in Stormwind.

So a guard walks up to them and asks "Do you have permission of the Kirin Tor or Stormwind mage tower for that?"

How should the confronted man/woman react? Should he/she have some sort of document? And how can the guard know wether it is a false document or not?

Just wondering, and I can understand if this is not of Omanos to deal with, but I would like someone to clarify this matter.

( I assume that when someone sumons an undead being outside the kingdom of Stormwind and then walks into the kingdom of Stormwind with it falls under necromancy as well. Or? )

by **Melnerag** Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:13 am

Yes it does, since the Law doesn't specify location. No matter -where- you do it, Necromancy is still -wrong-

Similar to RL laws on Crimes of War, no matter WHERE you commit them, no 'civilized' country would allow you to enter their soil. (unless allowing that serves political motive of the rulers Sad

)

However, I think there is a 'tolerance-policy' towards the Knights of the Ebon Blade. We know they summon undead, we know they do necromancy...but we pretend they don't unless they do it right in Stormwind (ghouls)

by **Gahalla** Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:18 am

I like the new laws. They look very good and easy to understand I think.

I'd ask for two definitions though:
1) What is a royal/stormwind official? It needs to be defined under the law I think.
2) Which are the basic rights? Again, needs a legal definition.

Also, might I suggest changing the wording under high treason from "the king" to "the royal family". Thus also including attacks on the prince in high treason Wink

by **Melnerag** Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:22 am

I think Royal/SW official needs no definition, since it clearly is a man in direct employ of the King. This includes ministers, army officers, soldiers, guards, Royal Chancellary clarks etc.

Basic rights is indeed vague, but clear to understand. I agree that some defining might do good in the end.

by **Amaryl** Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:47 pm

A death penalty like stoning is on the same level as a severe punishment like 10 lashes?

by **Valerias** Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:52 pm

Do mind that the punishments are just examples, possibilities. It doesn't mean they'll be all used, and whatever punishment is actually handed out depends on the severity and nature of the crime committed.

by **Melnerag** Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:08 pm

We didn't want to restrict the judges and convicts too much by prescribing a punishment for every crime. We simply tried to Recommend some (sorts) of punishments, so they have at least a starting point. But yes, High Treason and Sedition are both major offences. While you would stone somebody for High Treason, you might just give some nasty lashes for Sedition; it all depends on the severity of a crime!

by **Amaryl** Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:46 pm

Aniane/Vale wrote:Do mind that the punishments are just examples, possibilities. It doesn't mean they'll be all used, and whatever punishment is actually handed out depends on the severity and nature of the crime committed.

I understand this, but its the categorising that is slightly weird. since stoning for all intents of purposes is a death penalty.

and it is categorised under major corporal punishment. why isn't it split up into two categories then: death and major corporal? or are death penalties in SW simply regarded the same as major physical injury?

by **Melnerag** Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Since this is meant purely for RP purposes, and almost nobody ever wants his character killed...we might as well give some nasty, nasty physical punishment that is expected to kill the person....but he miraculously survives!

by **Amaryl** Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:00 pm

Icly it doesn't make sense still, so maybe it would better to just remove "stoning" as an example

additionally not have the deathsentence ICly as an option seems rather bad also even if oocly it is never given.

by **Ledgic** Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:41 pm

I already took a few of the punishments out because they'd never be used on an IC basis, since most people simply wouldn't agree to their character receiving them.

Unfortunately, if we were to remove all the punishments in the same fashion, we'd have nothing written down at all.

by **Geldar** Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:19 pm

These punishments are as an example of what a capital punishment would be if it gets to there, it does not mean that such a punishment will be used, but its an example. And if we remove all the punishments that people won't agree with it gets all lulzy. Why not just write down: "Mass Murder - Slap over the wrist" and get it over with?

Rather, I'd like to see some suggestions about alternatives instead of "that doesn't belong there!11one".

Since let's put it from an angle that makes sense. What is expected to happen to someone who does very evil things? Let's say to a known cultist or a criminal who has committed the most disgusting of acts, mass murder, sacrifices, torture. Would it make sense to give him a fine and send him on his merry way, or what?

It all comes down to certain things really. If your charecter has really committed such crimes and there was no problem when doing it, why should be there a problem when justice comes around the corner (If its all agreed upon, naturally)? But then again, its a known fact that people never did enjoy taking consequences for their actions as bad as they might be.

by **Amaryl** Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:58 am

first i'm not saying that people shouldn't be punished according to their crimes. what i'm saying is that the categories don't make sense as it stands in relation to the examples you give.

Stoning is one of the worst forms of death penalty in existance. its worse then hanging, lethal injection and event the guillotine. (even in the middle east stoning is so bad, that the judge that orders it is legally obliged to cast the first stone) and that is the example you put in the same category as 10 lashes. you're not putting cutting of a hand, removing a digit, breaking kneecaps or even crusifying into the same category but stoning.

it would make more sense to simple put in two different categories for severe corporal punishments. as in sever corporal punishments and a death penalty. with the death penalty sporting examples likes decapitation, hanging and stoning, and severe coporal punishment as flogging, lashing and cutting of a digit, or hand or even castration.

simply putting 10 lashes in the same category as stoning is ridiculous to say the least.

and if you want to keep death penalties out of the rulebook since it will never be used, stoning is still a very bad example.

by **Geldar** Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:10 am

Alright then, give us some good alternatives that will be a good example in that case.

by **Melnerag** Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:59 am

So, remove stoning from the least, and add breaking kneecaps there instead?

by **Amaryl** Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:55 am

Geldar wrote:Alright then, give us some good alternatives that will be a good example in that case.

Amaryl wrote:flogging, lashing and cutting of a digit, or hand or even castration.

by **Aleric** Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:23 am

300 hours of listening to the Chapter's sermons? *hides*

by **Melnerag** Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:36 am

Chapter Correctional Porgramme:
Turning bloodthirsty murderers into bloodthirsty murderers who praise the Light as they slit your throat since 2009!

by **Ledgic** Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:55 pm

Amaryl wrote:
Geldar wrote:Alright then, give us some good alternatives that will be a good example in that case.

Amaryl wrote:flogging, lashing and cutting of a digit, or hand or even castration.

Some of which I removed because people would never agree to it. Putting examples of punishments into these laws isn't going to blow anyone's head off. I'm rather surprised it's such a big deal, to be honest.

by **Feydor** Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:19 pm

Is one of the punishments forcing a prisoner to fight in a battle? I'm sure Ironforge Senate used that, its real interesting to RP out.

by **Ralegh** Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:07 pm

Feydor wrote:Is one of the punishments forcing a prisoner to fight in a battle? I'm sure Ironforge Senate used that, its real interesting to RP out.

Yeah, the Senate made me to that after i had assisted in some stuff, i just got sent into the mountains with Ildranor who was gonna drill me and prepare me for battle. (he beat me to shit, complained about how i shouldnt have gotten beaten to shit, then beat me again.)

by **Amaryl** Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:20 pm

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:

Some of which I removed because people would never agree to it. Putting examples of punishments into these laws isn't going to blow anyone's head off. I'm rather surprised it's such a big deal, to be honest.

at the end it doesn't really matter. I figured you guys would like some feedback. but hey, if you feel a death penalty is an okay example while others aren't because people wouldn't let it happen to their char, sure. Maybe I just like to see some consistency. since i was just surprised to see stoning included into your examples... while omitting, other death penalties like hanging, firing-squad, decapitation...

and put stoning under a category of punishments in the same line as 10 lashes, a crippling punishment...

you can either take feedback as it comes or shrug it aside, that's your choice, i'll just won't bother again xD

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