Regarding the Stormwind Crimes and Punishment

I like this! I would love to see Stormwind being more medieval-like over all, though. Who says that laws nobles make (on orders from the King and signed by him, I assume) would actually be fair? I don't really want to make this a thread about equal rights or any of that, I am just saying that there is no reason to see this from anyone's view but theirs. Hence threathening a noble would be a worse crime than beating up some beggar.

HOWEVER! I will not whine about it as I think this is great no matter what.

With that said I would also like to point out the fact that some criminals will be found un-guilty as there just is not enough evidence. There will also be creep-holes that sneaky lawyers can use. This should be the exception, though, logically.

About the whipping: There should be included some sort of law that prevents some nabby healer from casting Flash of Light on the criminal and make him all fine and dandy again. That could be seen as diminishing the court's authorithy or similar. Sewing and cleaning the wounds and wrapping them up in bandage - fine! Magically heal them - not fine!

This post will be a bit longer still. Here goes.

"Robbery
The seizing of property through violence or intimidation without the owner's freely-given consent."
I actually lol'ed at this one. No offence at all meant but it suggests that there are an amount of perverted persons out there who actually WANTS to be beaten up and intimidated while somoene takes their money. ^^
A rephrase could be:
"Robbery
The seizing of property, without the owner's freely-given consent, through violence or intimidation ."
or as simple as
"Robbery
To use violence or intimidation to seize someone's property."

And about guards imprisonating someone:
They're not putting someone in jail, they keep them in custody until the trial. They must have the possibility to do so, or they would be powerless. Smaller offences, like being drunk in public, shouldn't even be brought to court but only mean custody for a few hours until they sobered up and a fine. It would be very, very tiresome to RP through all those trials otherwise.

Another concern is something I will post in another post as it is not fitting for this thread, it is about guards. Read that post here.

Oh, right, one more thing:

Mass-murder. Killing more than 4 people in a short time. How long is a short time? Will that be individually evaluated? There is really no reason to put some sort of guidelines here that would implement that it's fine to kill 3 people on the wednesday and another 2 the next thursday. Or what about one every monday morning for three months?

I think you should re-consider that entirely, putting down numbers and time periods will do you no good at all. I'd phrase it:

"Massmurder
To intentionally cause the death of several persons."
and then let the court decide whether it would be massmurder or just some accidental manslaughters here and there.

Actually regarding that whipping and having no healer around.

I was at the council meeting where the sentence was made, and if I remember correctly someone said that it had to be without a healer.

I've been requested to make an ingame GHI copy of this list of "crimes and punishments". I would like to make this book public since I think most citizens should have access to it.

Whether or not this is public, making this book faces an additional challenge: it has to be maintained and updated along with the original topic.

I propose the following:
- I make the item, and copy the code using the "extract" feature.
- If Omanos is willing, I'd like him to paste the code in his laws topic, where people can copy-paste the code into the game using the "import" feature.

To ensure some consistency I would:
- Make the book "not copyable". This forces players to get it from the site and ensure it is the latest version.
- Add a date reference to the book's description, as an easy to check method to see if it is the latest version.

Any thoughts?

The book, or at least the version I first wrote already exists in book-form. I am unsure how many changes have since been made but on first glance; not that many. Partridge of the Blazing Shields should still have a copy, along with others of the older Shields. I'm not sure if you can edit it freely, but at least it can be infinitely duplicated.

I think you'll find Billiam very much interested in a few copies.

I actually have what I believe to be a copy of that. The problem with that book, which is a really nice one, is that it says things like:

"The Stormwind Book of Laws is the main reason for the Stormbringer Regiment it's existence."

No, that is another one. It was written by someone in the Stormbringers. An older one exists as well, written by me.

Billiam wrote:I actually have what I believe to be a copy of that. The problem with that book, which is a really nice one, is that it says things like:

"The Stormwind Book of Laws is the main reason for the Stormbringer Regiment it's existence."

Yeah, the man who wrote it along with myself started that guild, coz the shields were never around, neither were rangers or Disciples; Scarlets were posing at the cath. We wanted to fill this void of "lawful" guilds that do something, somehow...


But, after he wrote the book, for one reason or another the guild slowly went to the wardrobe "untill better times".

And it would be kind of cool to see our book being used despite our current situation.

Ah, I see. It's made by Lupael, it says.
Well, the book is nice, but as it says that thing it might be a bit confusing for my guildies.

I have not seen your books, then, Rinoi! This one was traded to me from a Blazing Shields member so I suppose that is what some of them are using, at least.

I have the book made by Rinoi on Ben, but I'm out of gametime

What about having undead minions on holy ground, like an acherus steed? Under what law is that forbidden?

Therese wrote:What about having undead minions on holy ground, like an acherus steed? Under what law is that forbidden?

Necromancy, technically.

Not that anybody really gives a hoot it seems..

Chléirich/Gunnell/Graham wrote:

Therese wrote:What about having undead minions on holy ground, like an acherus steed? Under what law is that forbidden?

Necromancy, technically.

Not that anybody really gives a hoot it seems..

Oh, bazinga.

Gahalla:
I've always attributed the surviving/ignoring lashes to ignorance to what a whip really does with
the back (for reference, it rips, tears and crushes the muscles in the back, but rolls over the
bones and doesn't harm them. If I recall correctly 10 lashes are enough to cause permanent injury.
Noone is expected to survive over 35).

I think that lowering the number to five or ten would be appropriate,
seeing that the court will give them an additional sentence after all.

- I agree with your statement regarding the actual result of being whipped that many times.
Now however, if we speak realisticly here it all depends on a few things:

If given 30 lashes:

1. If all are aimed over the back it will be a lot of damage like Gahalla mentions.
2. The amount of damage depends on:

* The strenght in the blows given, aka. The actual physical condition of the person handing the lashes out

* The kind of whip used: Example here:
In the movie where (dont recall the name atm) where Jesus is whipped you do see the "actual amount of damage taken) however in that movie they use several kinds of whips, some less lethal some more leathal like the one with spikes/nails/hooks attached. Though those whips were used with the intent of: Nearly killing. Aka. if not death penalty none would use them to punish without the intent of ruining the "victim/villans" life.

3. If you use a whip (not a bullwhip, not any whip with especially tiny ends, nails, spikes, hooks) a person can very, very well even if the person whipping is strong, survive that easily without lethal wounds or injuries.

- If you have never ever whipped a person, animal yourself you may think: hmmm any whip will cut through flesh.. Most whips will leave long red dark lines, give you bruises. But..

FEW people.. Have the skills, strenght and precise accuracy training regarding the use of whips, how to lash it, to make it actually pierce even the skin. And you need to add in the mental health of the person to.. Lets say: Jeanpierre (sorry for using you as a shiny example here), with his sleeve and robe fiddeling... Would never be able to handle a whip properly, his mental and physical state added to his lack of skills, would not work too well... Now lets take Jayse, I am unaware of his skills with a whip but lets say he has some, still without the skill he used to dealing with weapons, still he is more used to I assume, lighter weapons, which means he will succeed far better than Jeanpierre would.

Now lets hmmm take Geldar and assume he has no training with how to use a whip, he is still used to heavier weapons, making his blows harder, so if he actually knows how to use it or manages it would cause a lot of damage. Still the flicks of the wrist, the mere handeling and actually hitting what you should be aiming for.. is HARD ^^ If you hit someones back with the middle line of the whip sure it would sting, hurt possibly as well.. But *****---------....... Imagine the whip being like this: The **** is the handle, good for hitting people in the face with, most useful if you just hold it really.. ----- is the middle of the whip, if this part hits a naked back, it is stil ...... this end that will /should depending on the lash curl/twine itself on the side or under towards the persons belly that hurts..

So.. Well if we assume the person knows how too... One can still survive 30 lashes depending on what kind of whip/how many of those 30 lashes that actually hits etc^^

(Sorry to Jayse and Geldar as well, it is simply to make the point clear)

So if we do rp the guard/punisher as someone with skills of how to use it, then yes bleeding bruises, will accure. If it is a spike/nail etc whip then yes it will be lethal and so on. But if it is an ordinary whip for the sakeof punishment with no extravaganca to it.. It wont be lethal. It will hurt like f******* hell yesYour back /sides will hurt for weeks even if done properly. Your back will be swollen, you will bleed, youwill get scars..

But.. Even a trained skilled guard, will fail here and there, wont be accurate in all of his lashes, and
if not strong enough or training it aka: Practise the art of whipping regulary, then I am sorry to say that 30 lashes would be all fine with no spikes etc.

Ps. Gahalla most of this post is my general view, and its not pinpointed towards you in any other way then: I agree with the amount of damage etc you do point out!^^ The rest is for the thread in general and you are more of a referance in this case, to answer more fully on the topic in the beginning of this thread
^^

I say a clause is added so that the aristocrats of the server could submit themselves to a Trial of Combat rather than the usual legal process.

Let them duel a champion put forward by the state to prove their innocence!

I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned before but I couldn't find it in this thread.

We have a war going on right? And we have more of that this weekend or next week right? How about criminals convicted for heavy crimes can buy themselves off by fighting on the frontline?
"Fight on this frontline. If you survive and we win the battle.. you're a free man."

Seems historically correct to me. It could work with PvP events. Some guilds organize preparation events etc. All that expensive and shiny battle gear is lying there for grabs... if you can get past its guards.
If they get caught, they have an IC reason to tag along.

Their RP doesn't break (at least so it seems to me) and ICly it's viable to consider it a terrible choice.

+ it is a good way to involve prisoners in RP in a reasonable way.

Because you don't just arrest people and throw them in a dark cellar with no RP until it suits you - they're your responsibility as long as you don't want people to ninja out of jail!

So, great suggestion Jeanpierre!
You could ofcourse make an OOC agreement that the criminal in question won't just run away at first chance (as long as you RP somewhat keeping him in check).
I think this would be very interresting RP, especially for those criminals who enjoy world PvP (and indeed, those who want more people at those) - but also the criminals who tend more towards talking RP, which could be aiding the medics or such.

I'd say if this was executed the criminal would be in shackles the horde army were just in front of them. Then when the armies about to run into each other you probably throw them out first. So very lil' running away chances:D.

*shrug* You bring them to the warzone in shackles and release them. What can they realistically do? They don't have a dime that buys them a return ticket with a boat and to walk out into the open when there's scouts, snipers and manhunters about is .. well... unless you have some of the last of the Mohicans to shoot you a clear path you're out of luck.

The Dieudonne Seal has seen this, dark sacrifices shall be made in secret to the Old Gods and a decision made based upon the entrails...

Yeah, sounds like a really good idea with the upcoming events as well as in our day to day RP. It's another good IC reason for allowing people to avoid jail time as well if they're really unwilling OOC. I can shout "RP the consequences" till I'm blue in the face but it won't make the resultant 'reluctant' RP any better or more enjoyable.

I'll pass it on to our boots on the ground sometime tonight/tomorrow, too much work to be done IRL. >.<

Geneviève wrote:I say a clause is added so that the aristocrats of the server could submit themselves to a Trial of Combat rather than the usual legal process.

Let them duel a champion put forward by the state to prove their innocence!

You really want to fight against me? Innocence proves nothing.

Geneviève wrote:I say a clause is added so that the aristocrats of the server could submit themselves to a Trial of Combat rather than the usual legal process.

Let them duel a champion put forward by the state to prove their innocence!

Fighting yourself? How barbaric! Surely there should be champions to fight for the nobles/aristocrats. I would not agree that this is fitting in just any situation actually, I'd say it could be more of a direct conflict solution or a chance to strike down those who taints their good name. When it comes to nobles and the law I would say it should be both more formal when someone is accused of something, a more formal arrest and also my opinion is that punishments should be slightly different in most cases for example instead of prison the punishment for nobles could be house arrest. I have quite a bit of ideas when it comes to how matters with nobles should be treated RP wise in general and these are just a few, just havent had the time to collect them in a thread.

My 2 cents (though... I don't RP a noble myself so by all means, play it your own way )
A Noble isn't going to hide or run away normally. If they disappear from the political 'nobility' scene, they probably lost their power by the time they come back. Which is why they would have trusted family they put on the throne/seat/chair to keep it warm when they are out battling wars... Or watching them with a cup of tea.

Edit: What I mean to aim at is that a noble isn't necessarily treated like a commoner and thrown into jail. Rather a formal note is made and the matter is brought to the highest echelons of power where it is used as political argument... if it is of any importance.

New laws have been posted here