Re: Mists of Pandaria

by **Zouyo** Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:28 am

Could be a different faction of Zandalari? Prior to the Cataclysm, the Zandalari worked with the lesser races to remove threats to their power or something, Hakkar etc. But since the Cataclysm destroyed their homeland, a new faction has taken over the Zandalari mindset and is now on the warpath.

Least that's how I see it.

by **Thelos** Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:33 am

Amaryl wrote:and that is the hallmark of a two dimension character. Also the facial expressions don't help.

Ah.

Well, I find myself agreeing with everything you have said, Amaryl.

I suppose the disagreement lies in how we value 2-dimensional characters within a fictional space like the World of Warcraft. I don't think it's really a bad thing to have your story NPCs be 2-dimensional. They're supposed to be the background, after all - the stage crew moving the props around we get to tear down as we smash trough the game. The World of Warcraft isn't about the emotional moral struggles of these characters. It's not important to enhance the ultimate quality of the experience and might in fact be deriviative of it when it becomes too distracting.

Sorry about skipping three pages of debate, but I couldn't get myself to read all of it. It's too early!

EDIT: Ah, excellent! No need for me to post anything further, since I find myself in full agreement with this excellent post by Drustai, which expresses my thoughts quite neatly:

Spoiler:

by **Zinkle Figgins** Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:24 am

In any case, I'm glad Trol'kalar is in Forsaken hands now that a Troll is the leader of the Horde. I'm sure it will make negotiates smoother.

by **Amaryl** Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:54 am

Thelos wrote:
Amaryl wrote:and that is the hallmark of a two dimension character. Also the facial expressions don't help.
Ah.

Well, I find myself agreeing with everything you have said, Amaryl.

I suppose the disagreement lies in how we value 2-dimensional characters within a fictional space like the World of Warcraft. I don't think it's really a bad thing to have your story NPCs be 2-dimensional. They're supposed to be the background, after all - the stage crew moving the props around we get to tear down as we smash trough the game. The World of Warcraft isn't about the emotional moral struggles of these characters.

I agree with this, I just find this form of epic fantasy boring, clichéd and over used. this is the stuff I loved when I was 14, that's not to say its wrong to still like it, but that my tastes have changed.

Although, i'm kinda sad that even though there's a lot of strong thematic lore, with all kinds of shades, and moral ambiguity everywhere in wow as well as a myriad of opposing viewpoints by dozens of factions, the story ultimately is the still the three act hero's call.

by **Ralegh** Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:29 am

Sanara wrote:
Nimble/Oragg wrote:
Sanara wrote:The Zandalari, after all, do not work with lesser species.
Except for in Stranglethorn back in the day.... Oh and in Zul'drak.
Yeah, I don't know why the Zandalari have been retconned to be the worst of the trolls when they were actually pro-cooperation back in Vanilla, but new lore trumps the old, so they're racial supremacists now with a superiority complex to match the Mogu.

I figure Zoyou hit the spot there possibly, Since the Zandalari basically have their grand empire sliding into the ground and a new prophet taking charge they might have gone a bit racial supremacist more as a means to a end rather than anything else.
Troll pride so they can unite the trolls and carve out a new empire.

by **Anivitas** Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:13 pm

Everyone is talking about Garrosh, Varian, and Jainia. Nobody mentiones the true important thing about this patch. They killed the Klaxxi! Sad

Easily my favourite characters/thing in this expac..and they forced me to kill them all.

Feels.

by **Sanara** Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:31 pm

Anivitas wrote:They killed the Klaxxi!

They were bug people and therefore are evil and can be killed without remorse. It is a Law of Fiction.

District 9 is the only story I can think of where you have humanoid bug aliens that aren't inherently evil and/or mindless.

by **Drustai** Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:45 pm

Anivitas wrote:Everyone is talking about Garrosh, Varian, and Jainia. Nobody mentiones the true important thing about this patch. They killed the Klaxxi! :(Easily my favourite characters/thing in this expac..and they forced me to kill them all.

Feels.

Technically, we only killed the Paragons, not the Klaxxi.

Still, rest in peace. Sad

by **Lexgrad** Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:02 pm

Garrosh lives!!!

by **Anivitas** Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:04 pm

Sanara wrote:
Anivitas wrote:They killed the Klaxxi!
They were bug people and therefore are evil and can be killed without remorse. It is a Law of Fiction.

District 9 is the only story I can think of where you have humanoid bug aliens that aren't inherently evil and/or mindless.

You take that back! The Klaxxi are not evil!

@Dru True, but they were the best the race had to offer Sad

by **Thelos** Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:25 pm

Amaryl wrote:Although, i'm kinda sad that even though there's a lot of strong thematic lore, with all kinds of shades, and moral ambiguity everywhere in wow as well as a myriad of opposing viewpoints by dozens of factions, the story ultimately is the still the three act hero's call.

Wait what? Three act hero's call?

Are you refering to a three-act sctucture in theatre and literature, or Joseph Cambpell's "Hero with a thousand faces" journey?

Because comparing the World of Warcraft with the latter seems like kind of a wild stretch, considering how many 'steps' it skips.

by **Sanara** Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:43 am

I agree with Thelos, WarCraft has really never used a three-act structure in its main story, Campbell or otherwise.

by **Thelos** Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:11 am

Sanara wrote:I agree with Thelos, WarCraft has really never used a three-act structure in its main story, Campbell or otherwise.

Well, it's a videogame whose plot has to be indefinite in order to sustain the gameplay. Thinking it in terms of 'acts' as, I think, the wrong way to approach storytelling in a MMO. Storytelling in a MMO resembles the tales spun by a dungeonmaster for his group of adventurers more than it resembles any other point of reference oft used in these debates; such film, literature or theatre. The players (not the readers or the audience!) need to be lead on by a bread crumb trail and fed a statisfying amount of drama as a reward for following it.

Of course Blizzard has somewhat more control over their group of players than a dungeonmaster in a tabletop game. I've had campaigns where, despite the dungeonmaster's best effort, the party insisted in going to exactly that particular point in the fictional universe that the dungeonmaster had left blank in his complex map of the world. The players of WoW at least literally can't get off the map. Not that role-players wouldn't like that, mind you! (I know I would).

I have no idea what the point of this is anymore. This is a proper Thelospost: I'm chiefly talking to myself.

by **Lexgrad** Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:37 pm

XD Best way Thelos, unless you disagree with yourself alot XD

New topic, trolls and Orcs!

What will come of the pro Garrosh orc groups, the Blackrock dragon maw and warsong. What will become of the trolls?

I have had a theory for a while that The remains of the trolls will begin to join the Horde, will be big thing for the Belfs too if they do, enemies into allies?

As for the orcs, can Thrall reunite them all into one clan again really, prob yes as it is blizz but it would be nice to see a subtle stress story.

by **Sanara** Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:19 pm

Thelos wrote:
Sanara wrote:I agree with Thelos, WarCraft has really never used a three-act structure in its main story, Campbell or otherwise.
Well, it's a videogame whose plot has to be indefinite in order to sustain the gameplay.

Well I was also referring to the earlier games, and the way questlines are set up, there's rarely any proper "three act structure" of any kind.

Lexgrad wrote:New topic, trolls and Orcs!

What will come of the pro Garrosh orc groups, the Blackrock dragon maw and warsong. What will become of the trolls?

I have had a theory for a while that The remains of the trolls will begin to join the Horde, will be big thing for the Belfs too if they do, enemies into allies?

As for the orcs, can Thrall reunite them all into one clan again really, prob yes as it is blizz but it would be nice to see a subtle stress story.

I'm still hoping they fix the Blood Elves.

By "fix" I mean "give them to the Alliance".

The Horde can have the Worgen, they're just furry humans anyway.

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:10 pm

The Horde can have the Worgen, they're just furry humans anyway.

Worgen at the moment are one of the races who have more reason to stay in the Alliance, sure more than draenei and night elves.

I won't comment further on the complete absence of worgen since 4.1, or the absolutely shitty way Blizzard has implemented them(similar to pandaren as playable race).

by **Thelos** Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:20 pm

Okay, I'll bite.

What's wrong with pandaren as a playable race?

by **Coppernut** Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:33 pm

ok my iproblem with pandaren is there starting zone. it is a stunning starter zone but theres something about it that grates my love to be a panda out of me.

by **Thelos** Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:38 pm

Coppernut wrote:ok my iproblem with pandaren is there starting zone. it is a stunning starter zone but theres something about it that grates my love to be a panda out of me.

So, it's stunning...but also somehow grating of your love to be a pandaren?

Well, that's not confusing or anything Sad

by **Coppernut** Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:46 pm

theres just something wrong. there are ways round it. but thats the main reason to me.

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:10 pm

Thelos wrote:Okay, I'll bite.

What's wrong with pandaren as a playable race?

I have yet to play over the whole starting zone but the issues are, for what I've been told and for what I've seen:
1)The reasons for a pandaren to join the Horde seem like.... unexistent.
2)They're stranded to their faction and noone hears of them anymore anytime throughout the whole questing experience, not even in Pandaria(or in some of the subsequent patches). The only way to get rep is through a tabard. I find that way to implement a race in the game extremely cheap and lazy. I love the pandaren's animation, the lore they have in Pandaria(and so mirrored in the wandering Isle) even if I had my doubts at start. The issue is not the pandaren as a race, but the pandaren as they were implemented.

by **itsy** Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:04 pm

Should have been Pandaren for Alliance race and playable Klaxxi mantid for Horde :'

by **Anivitas** Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:44 pm

Taalani wrote:Should have been Pandaren for Alliance race and playable Klaxxi mantid for Horde :'

I want a mantid playable race so badly..I know it will never happen.

by **Thelos** Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:07 pm

Tuomas/Decurius wrote:
Thelos wrote:Okay, I'll bite.

What's wrong with pandaren as a playable race?
I have yet to play over the whole starting zone but the issues are, for what I've been told and for what I've seen:
1)The reasons for a pandaren to join the Horde seem like.... unexistent.
2)They're stranded to their faction and noone hears of them anymore anytime throughout the whole questing experience, not even in Pandaria(or in some of the subsequent patches). The only way to get rep is through a tabard. I find that way to implement a race in the game extremely cheap and lazy. I love the pandaren's animation, the lore they have in Pandaria(and so mirrored in the wandering Isle) even if I had my doubts at start. The issue is not the pandaren as a race, but the pandaren as they were implemented.

As for (1), I think that's a common misconception: they had pretty decent reasons to join, just not too many reasons to stay once they were introduced to the big mean Orc in charge, Hellscream. Thankfully, trough Cho being a key player in the Rebellion, pandaren can always make the argument of joining the 'right' Horde.

The reason to join the Horde being almost the exact mirror image for joining the Alliance: it's one faction of alien guys, one who the Tushui join and one that the Houijin join on philosophical grounds. So, like Ji and Aysa, the player is expected to pick the faction that they feel best suits their character's philosophy and temper ("Action is the only virtue" and "The time to act is always now" versus "Discipline and practise lead us to our full potential")

As for (2)... Is this really a problem at all? Pandaren are supposed to be wanderers whose home is far off, as evident by the name of it: the Wandering Isle. They're not supposed to have any fortress or enclaves anywhere. They don't have a storyline as a race (apart from the Pandaria one, which isn't really supposed to be the storyline of the player characters, since they're not from Pandaria). Their story is an individual one: like Chen, they are expected to wander around the world seeking adventure, setting wrongs right, seeing as much beauty and drinking as much booze as possible.

I honestly don't see anyhthing wrong with the way that the 'pandaren were implemented'. It honestly appears to me as if people are trying to apply a paradigm where it just doesn't fit. Pandaren don't have a racial storyline, because they're not really united like the other races are. They're wandering individuals. There is no "Pandaren army" and there will never be "Pandaren cities" outside of Pandaria. That's just not the spirit of the race.

It almost seems like people are using a gripe they have with other races and projecting it onto the pandaren. "The Worgen get stranded in the lore after their starting area - it looks like the Pandaren are in the same boat as us!" Not quite. The difference here is that the Gilnean storyline very obviously isn't finished yet: at the very heart of the race is the drive of the Gilnean to reclaim their fallen home ("Gilneas shall rise again"). The Pandaren don't really have a loose end like that. Their story ended the moment the players leave the Wandering Isle. From there on out it's an open ended "Adventure awaits!" - that's it. Personally, I am charmed by this simple and light-hearted approach, though I can certainly see how some would not be.

TL;DR Pandaren aren't implemented poorly. They're not stuck in the lore - their plot has already finished, leaving the player with an open ending to create their own adventures with.

by **Raenmar** Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:11 pm

The difference here is that the Gilnean storyline very obviously isn't finished yet: at the very heart of the race is the drive of the Gilnean to reclaim their fallen home ("Gilneas shall rise again").

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