[A] Meetings of the Church of Holy Light.

Personally the way I have RP'd over the years coupled with the references I follow has led me down this path of RP. Oocly I love this interesting RP, but I will not tolerate any OOC bashing and I wont have people dictating my RP, you wish to contest our firm stance against the Dark arts, you do it Icly.

And for reference it may be wise to read over
http://www.wowwiki.com/Stormwind_City

In particular I've noted a few parts

Although Stormwind is well-defended, the city guard usually wears only light armor to handle the occasional thief or bandit. The paladins will don their full plate during ceremonies and when they ride out of the city on business defending Elwynn Forest or the surrounding areas, but around the city they wear nothing more than the breastplate that identifies them as paladins. A third force in the city is dedicated to maintaining the peace. In addition, a guild of assassins works behind the scenes with the blessings of the king and the Stormwind ruling council. When solving an "inconvenient" problem would go against the tenets of the Holy Light, the Stormwind Assassins are called. They deal with matters quickly and efficiently, and few questions are asked.

The city's nobility strive for power, while manipulating others and shrouding their sins in secrecy. A few exceptional nobles, however, do try to tend to the city the best they can. The priests, meanwhile, uphold the tenets of the Holy Light, although some have become more political than religious. The guard is generally uncorrupted and has a close relationship to the carefree citizens of Stormwind.

Opposition to the Horde, Scourge, Burning Legion, and Shadow are near requirements to live in the city. Anyone who speaks out in support of these groups, of even suggests it, is likely to be hanged or driven out, for these beliefs are enforced like law by the will of the common man.

Most citizens of the city are practitioners of the Holy Light, and nearly all at least respect it. The religion is tied closely to the government, for the church has enough political influence to directly impact the actions the King decides to take.

If your going to use lore to defend your arguments, make sure you have seen both sides. I more than accept the fact that yes, Warlocks and Dks are in our armies and hiding in our society. But it is almost more than certain that many who follow the faith of the light will directly oppose these changes, especially when it comes to the very streets of our homes.

This is not a "raking" of power, this is our IC response to these laws which we think are going to doom our people.

Personally, having served the light for years, Beladon knows the dangers of Shadow/Fel and Necrotic based magics, these things corrupt and drive people down dark paths. The history of Azeroth is plagued by these things and so a zero tolerance view has been taken.

Yes we follow our king, but we do not have to like it, and considering these permits to train in the city come from a player base, means a player based counter is more than welcome.

Thats my two cents anyway.

Beladon wrote:Yes we follow our king, but we do not have to like it, and considering these permits to train in the city come from a player base, means a player based counter is more than welcome.

Indeed! We have plenty to fight about. Hell, you can even start employing Witch-hunters to murder warlocks in their sleep. Go go conflict and RP.

Indeed, this should all be kept icly. People won't like it. Why would they? There's no scene in it, other than the warlocks themselves and those who want to purge the horde (fight fire with fire).

Many arguments can be put here and there, but it should be kept all icly, otherwise what's the point? We can argue we can debate, yet it won't effect anything ic. Indeed people such as the light users can think "Hey. This city is being corrupted. We must purge the corruption" and more role play is born from both sides.

In regards to the lore. From books such as Tides of War we know that warlocks are allowed within the Alliance and the city. Heck they had a whole ship full of warlocks in the harbor before setting sail. So they're allowed within the Alliance. However we have no clear indication if they're allowed to train, other the the npcs in the slaughtered lamb. Yet we also have Blue Dragons flying into the city to cheer on someone for their legendary staff. Such I find that a struggle to understand (even if just once). Of course there's a large difference between these. We can say "they shouldn't be there" or "they should be allowed to train for the alliance" which I think the latter is more truth than the former, yet only with set rules and conditions, which is being role played out.

In conclusion I do feel there's no end discussing this oocly. Both sides can have great arguments, but I don't think there's a right and wrong side to this. Thus while I urge people to leave it to ic measures. Yes. People can hunt the darklings down because they're "tainting the city". It's all role play at the end of the day, and with logic and lore behind it.

I have no issue with the in-character conflict between warlocks and followers of the Light. It is a logical consequence of the information given to us by lore.

To me it starts being a problem when players start to lift the story to a narrative plane where it isn't about the players, or player organisations anymore, but about the world. In character, people are now referring to things Kings have or have not said. It's coming to a place where an in-character discussion becomes hard for me to participate in, because the arguments used are incredibly hard to refute in-character, but break apart immediately when you expose them to the factual situation the game world presents us.

So... don't do that. Don't take things to an alliance-global level of politics. Keep it small, keep it contained, keep it on a player level.



Don't like warlocks in your church, or even your city? Let's discuss how to keep them out. Not by law or by politics, but by role-play. Go out on the streets, show them that it is the paladins that reign here, not the warlocks.

Warlocks tired of oppression? Keep to your hide-outs where the paladins don't venture. Wear a disguise. Or-- Gather your buddies and go kick some paladins in the shins. Why not?

But when you are a paladin that has just harassed a group of warlocks out of the city, don't go claim that the city is now warlock-free, and that they are Illegal entities prohibited from coming in. And when you are a warlock group that's just blasted the shit out of some lighties, don't go run around and claim the light is a false ideology and the city has now fallen to darkness.

Keep your stories contained on a level where it remains believable that it can happen.



My own paladin Scuzy was a complete zealot. She hated darklings, and did everything she could to kill them. Not by having long political meetings, but by going out to kill death knights and warlocks.

Although Stormwind is well-defended, the city guard usually wears only light armor to handle the occasional thief or bandit. The paladins will don their full plate during ceremonies and when they ride out of the city on business defending Elwynn Forest or the surrounding areas, but around the city they wear nothing more than the breastplate that identifies them as paladins. A third force in the city is dedicated to maintaining the peace. In addition, a guild of assassins works behind the scenes with the blessings of the king and the Stormwind ruling council. When solving an "inconvenient" problem would go against the tenets of the Holy Light, the Stormwind Assassins are called. They deal with matters quickly and efficiently, and few questions are asked.

The city's nobility strive for power, while manipulating others and shrouding their sins in secrecy. A few exceptional nobles, however, do try to tend to the city the best they can. The priests, meanwhile, uphold the tenets of the Holy Light, although some have become more political than religious. The guard is generally uncorrupted and has a close relationship to the carefree citizens of Stormwind.

Opposition to the Horde, Scourge, Burning Legion, and Shadow are near requirements to live in the city. Anyone who speaks out in support of these groups, of even suggests it, is likely to be hanged or driven out, for these beliefs are enforced like law by the will of the common man.

Most citizens of the city are practitioners of the Holy Light, and nearly all at least respect it. The religion is tied closely to the government, for the church has enough political influence to directly impact the actions the King decides to take.

Just want to point out, that all this comes from the RPG, which is considered non-canon.
It kinda says that at the top of the subarticle, where all this is quoted from. Plus, its obvious by how Stormwind is ingame, and it's evolution since Vanilla that this is no longer the case.

I don't think it will of changed much, apart from the dark arts starting to be accepted now in this expansion. That and its currently just this server lore in rp that people act like Paladins/Priests are the bad guys. Why? I don't know. Surely spreading love and kindness can't be that bad. Paladins and Priests should be hailed veteran Heroes!

We stopped the orcs, stopped the scourge, stopped Death wing! What have the Warlocks/Shadow users done for us?!?

Well, surely you have to admit, Wülfgnar, that Defias Brotherhood has a long and proud history of Lighties being dicks and zealots!

That's not to say that there haven't been nice and good guys, but we've reversed the traditional hegemony quite a bit here, which I think is nice.

But it does mean not every character is going to like you. There's going to be plenty that dislike you, in fact!

If i hail Archbishop Benedictus, does that count? Nah, thing is ingame is one and lore is another and so-so. Always fun things around! But it's -good- that there are diffrent kind of paladins and priests and guards and so. They are diffrent people themselfs, one can follow the light, in their own way!

This isn't a question of law or political in fighting. It's a simple question of realism.

Stormwind is not some frontier town or den of iniquity. It is the centre of human civilisation. Neither is Stormwind a 21st century town with 21st century attitudes towards religion. It is a quasi-medieval society, where religion should be an important part of every day life. It is not the adventurers (player characters) who make up the bulk of the population. It is the ordinary people. So ask yourself what sort of place Stormwind should be.

Is it realistic that the ordinary people are comfortable with the dead walking the streets? Is it realistic that the ordinary people find open displays of Shadow and other Fel magic to be acceptable? Or is it realistic that the people accept blindly that the Light protects and provides for them and that the priests and paladins of the Church are the ones they listen to? Is it not more realistic that they tolerate Death Knights only because they fear the King and he has decreed such toleration. Is it not more realistic that the question of whether warlocks and shadow priests are tolerated simply does not arise because the warlocks and shadow priests are not foolish enough to advertise their own presence?

Personally, I disagree with there being special laws for holy ground but only because the rest of the city should not have laws that the Church finds unacceptable. It is unrealistic in the capital city of an essentially good kingdom that the Council should base its laws on around an adventurer's view of the world rather than than the views of society at large.

We can't make assumptions on things that are not strictly stated when handling areas like this. What we do have to go by is what lore Blizzard has clearly presented to us.

• The King has decreed that death knights are to be treated with respect.
  
• Blizzard has stated that demons and undead in the city should not be a common or accepted thing (therefore, any laws must keep this in account).
  
• Quests have shown that the King knows about the warlock coven of the Slaughtered Lamb, and has commissioned awards for them for their service to the Alliance. Guards will also point player characters do the Slaughtered Lamb if they ask about warlocks. They aren't happy about it, but it's a "tolerated" location. (therefore, this can either be tolerated "under the table", or it can be regulated by law. The current Council prefers to regulate it, as complete prohibition encourages illegal and dangerous activity and makes it far more difficult to monitor and control. This opinion can be changed with a good argument from the Church, however)
  
• Old RPG sources state that the common person in the Alliance is very opposed to the dark arts. Though these sources might no longer be officially canon, keep in mind that the RPG books were written with input and oversight from Metzen and Blizzard, and were previously confirmed as canon. Even after being retconned as non-canon, Blizzard has still stated that much of the information in them is accurate. Therefore they do still hint at Blizzard's interpretation even if no longer officially canon. While the military might openly use dark arts users, Church RPers are correct that stuff that affects the civilian sector should be handled very carefully.
  
• There are commissioned death knight officers in the Alliance military (Captain Crudbeard. Thassarian has also been referred to as a general I believe). Not just mercenaries and adventurers, but full commissioned officers commanding other soldiers.
  
• Death knights with undead are seen with Alliance forces at Andorhal, and warlocks with demons and shadowpriests in shadowform are seen in Lion's Landing, therefore they are openly tolerated in the Alliance military at the least.
  
• In Tides of War, Varian has a contingent of Alliance warlocks, with demons, in his fleet, and orders them to openly attack an enemy ship. The narrative states that they are necessary for the war effort.
  
• Despite all of the above, they are still very rare sights in the Alliance military, and when they do appear they are often viewed with suspicion and distrust.

The Council dark arts draft is therefore an attempt to reconcile these facts. Because of the lore, there are some things the Council will never do (allow demons and undead minions openly in the city), and there are some things that some Councilors would love to do but can't (Areyah would love to follow Church opinion and have every warlock and death knight burned at the stake).

An additional factor is to keep in mind that the Church aren't the only constituent the Council has whispering in our ears. Alliance-loyal dark arts characters are likewise pressuring to have more rights. The Council is attempting to reconcile between these two constituents, and each of the various Councilors lean towards one side or the other. Areyah for example is rationally neutral but emotionally on the side of the Church, and has delayed voting on the proposal for a few weeks now as she wants to get a compromise with the Church before passing anything. She's more than willing to shoot down the proposal entirely if she sees that it will cause a riot.

I'm writing this post to basically say that we're looking into all angles, and are not pressing for any particular outcome. The only thing we won't attempt to change is established lore. But it's certainly possible for the proposal to fail due to in-character discussions. This is why I'd rather we have these sort of discussions IC instead of OOC. The above are the factors we have to go by, and are the factors we are keeping in mind. Anything that is not strictly stated by lore is up in the air, and therefore completely moldable by IC developments.

I also have to add that the current draft has been shown to Maelmoor, Beladon and Jeremias (and through them to the church) At any time in the last two weeks anybody could have sent in suggestion or an entirely different proposal. In those two weeks, Rihani spent just about every evening talking to either Maelmoor, Beladon or Jeremias and asking for their input.

Some like Maelmoor have chosen to compromise, and asked something in return for the Dark Arts (purity of Cathedral), which Rihani is working equally hard on getting. Others like Beladon or Jeremias have refused to compromise, just insisting on 'Not in the City!' Which Rihani tried to meet with a letter to Conover.

The deliberations continue until tuesday, at the very least. Not compromising (and not discussing) is a conscious choice, and this stand of refusal may sway some not to vote obviously. But in the end it is really up to each person to decide how they want to engage in this political-RP, whether they support it, seek compromise or protest.

Yeah, I think the co-operation on "both" sides been excellent and already provided a lot of RP and not only Council RP but lot of people that has nothing to do with the Council are involved so for me it's obvious to continue handle this IC