Re: [A] Meetings of the Church of Holy Light.

by **Thelos** Sat May 18, 2013 2:12 pm

Well, as you know, I love to argue, and I have to compensate for not being able to attend Wink

.

I think the position of my current character as a paladin (or a vindicator, whatever) that's actually out in the field fighting alongside warlocks and such is an interesting one. I wanted to contribute :3.

by **erwtenpeller** Sat May 18, 2013 6:01 pm

Epic read. Smile

by **John Silverweave** Mon May 20, 2013 11:59 am

That read tingled my lore sensors. Epic!

by **Melnerag** Wed May 22, 2013 11:32 am

The draft of the Dark Arts laws, together with the Justification will be brought to the meeting by Maelmoor.

Church-made rules suggestion has been mailed to relevant parties.

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Wed May 22, 2013 3:47 pm

Good luck with the event. None of my chars can come, and I'm busy elsewhere, but I'd love if any can get me a transcript, even considering I'm directly involved Razz

by **John Silverweave** Wed May 22, 2013 7:39 pm

Tried to come along. Though wasn't permitted entry into the Abby for IC reasons (Being a Magi). Curse you all!

But in all seriousness I hope the event goes well.

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Wed May 22, 2013 9:28 pm

Haha! Jeremias will look smug at you another time!

The script for the event is up on the front page. (its incredibly long, and the debate on homosexuals is some-where in the middle if you want a good laugh.) Thanks to all who attended and I enjoyed every moment, its good to have the old Light VS Dark back again!

(A letter handed out to those that couldn't make the meeting but requested a memo of what was discussed.)

“This meeting is to discuss the secretive new laws that are being imposed on the city within the council. These laws are permits for those that use the Dark arts, allowing them to train and preach within the city as long as they carry this permit. We do not get to vote on them, we do not get a chance to refuse them. Instead we must accept every whim of this council without question. These men and women are meant to be the chosen to speak on behalf of the King, but time and time again do they play mind and power games within their circle of nobility. Luckily, one of those members has a strong connection to the Light and the Church and he has alerted us these secretive meetings.’’

“Firstly allow me to explain what Dark Arts are. It includes Fel magic, Divine Shadow, Necromancy and Demonology, those people that surpass the basics of Arcane.’’

“These are not people that are simply using another weapon in the war, these are people that must be dark minded, must be corrupt to wield such a weapon. They have to want the desire to do bad, evil and dabble in foul things to learn this magic.’’

“When the demons brought damnation to Azeroth, they also carried their own brand of magic to the world. Fel and Shadow magic. It is in the blood of demons and has strong ties to the Nether.”

“All of them claim to know what they are getting into, They know about the seductive whisper, of the power and the strength of the Nether. They know of the addiction. They say it will not happen to them; they will not fall to evil, like so many before them. These people have an insatiable lust to delve into the secrets of the dark arts and have driven themselves to keep a permanent connection to the Burning Legion and the Nether for their own gains. They reject the Light and its Virtues to pursue this downward spiral to damnation.”

“The king has not welcomed them into the Alliance like he has done the Death Knights. These people are vaguely acceptable in war and are still distrusted. These people are rare and not in significant numbers. Why would the council allow them within the city when the King has not announced that we should welcome them with open arms as he did the Death Knights!’’

“Lastly, It has come to light that some of the Ministers are having a gun held to their head or being pushed due to corruptive powers. It is because of this that I suggest all council members and anyone who works for them must submit to a corruption test. Two are already positive for carrying fel blood within.”

"It is our duty as the faithful, in our first agenda, to spread the love and will of the Light. Educate those on the Dark arts and steer the lost onto the path of the righteous. I hope you all will step in and do a small part in preaching the Light as much as you can."

- High Priest Jeremias Blackwell.

by **erwtenpeller** Wed May 22, 2013 9:36 pm

Feeble, short-sighted humans! What a Face

by **Drustai** Wed May 22, 2013 11:26 pm

Le sigh. Us poor politicians are in between a rock and a hard place here. Very Happy

by **John Silverweave** Thu May 23, 2013 12:10 am

Corruption tests!!!? Oh light why!?

But m'yes rock and a hard place.

by **Drustai** Thu May 23, 2013 12:23 am

Corruption tests are an area Arey would 100% support. Very Happy

You've got nothing to fear if you've got nothing to hide!

by **Anivitas** Thu May 23, 2013 12:29 am

Drustai wrote:Corruption tests are an area Arey would 100% support.

You've got nothing to fear if you've got nothing to hide!

Amen to that! Eldo will happily agree to these checks from his friends in the church. Razz

by **erwtenpeller** Thu May 23, 2013 8:35 am

I would like to bring one thing up, though.

I've heard this as the prime argument for why warlocks are supposedly illegal (which I still think is a wrongful assumption.)

"The king spoke a pardon for the death knights. He never gave warlocks such a pardon."

When you roll a new death knight, you start out as scourge. Your entry into the alliance is an integral part of the story of your death knight. This is why their pardon is something visible to all-- It was an important part of the Wrath of the Lich King story.

When you roll a warlock, you are already a part of the alliance. You don't need a kings pardon, it is implied by the very fact your warlock is a part of the Alliance, and not the burning legion or some other faction.

Good warlocks are the norm. They are the default player character, cultists and evil warlocks are a role-players deviate from this default.

Now that's not to say I think lighties should go easy on the darklings. Not at all. Kick their ass, burn them at the stake. But don't turn it into a political game with arguments that are complete bollocks. If you don't like warlocks in your church, slap those bitches until they leave. Don't sanction them a fine.

Sigh.

by **Thelos** Thu May 23, 2013 8:41 am

As usual, I'm with the 'peller, though admittedly I don't really see a problem with the current course of action these gentlemen are undertaking per se, as long as a positive reading on the evil-o-meter (measuresdin kilonazi's) doesn't automaticly warrant legal prosecution - suspicion and hot holy dogs breathing in your neck, sure, but not downright legal action. I don't think there's any foundation for that.

by **erwtenpeller** Thu May 23, 2013 8:46 am

I don't have a problem with testing councillors for corruption. That is contained role-play.

But it appears to me that the players running this are raking more power and justification to themselves then they should. Why can't this be just from the motivation of the Light-worshipping guilds? Why does it need to be bigger?

It was honestly cringe-worthy that the arguments kept cycling back to the same nonsensical one-liner. It's clever, really. It's an argument very hard to refute in-character, while it is not correct for what I perceive as obvious out-of-character reasons.

by **Maelmoor** Thu May 23, 2013 9:28 am

erwtenpeller wrote:I don't have a problem with testing councillors for corruption. That is contained role-play.

But it appears to me that the players running this are raking more power and justification to themselves then they should. Why can't this be just from the motivation of the Light-worshipping guilds? Why does it need to be bigger?

It was honestly cringe-worthy that the arguments kept cycling back to the same nonsensical one-liner. It's clever, really. It's an argument very hard to refute in-character, while it is not correct for what I perceive as obvious out-of-character reasons.

What you think about warlocks OOCly, as most beging "good", is not how most see them IC, so I don't see the problem in this? Lorewise the Light is much more important than how it is IC on Defias, heck most Stormwinders would be followers of the Light (even if most would have a more passive view upon it).

by **erwtenpeller** Thu May 23, 2013 9:31 am

The problem is that the story is about introducing a law that is already there.

Actually. No, that's all council role-play, and I think people should be able to have that if they want. But it irks me when the most basic of facts are ignored for it. The fact that warlock is a playable class should be all the proof you need that they are a valuable part of the alliance. Of course they're going to be frowned upon by most, and being a warlock is something exceptional. And of course the church is going to oppose them, and want to kick their ass. That's all fair, and cal deliver good role-play.

What bothers me about it is the need to take it further then that. Once you start talking about what kings have and havn't said, you're entering territory you shouldn't be role-playing in. A scope of lore that is far out of reach for us players. I'd rather see people accept the fact that warlocks are a part of the alliance, and form a group to fight them anyway.

by **Melnerag** Thu May 23, 2013 9:38 am

DISCLAIMER: controversial post ahead, if you cannot handle controversy, please skip ahead and just flame me for one of the following crimes: lollerism, lorerapism, elitisim.

The game provides a lot of hints, but the interpretation of those hints depends on the starting point. If you start out thinking that warlocks are banned, then many of those hints border on just non-lore Game Mechanics. If you start out thinking warlocks are accepted, then those hints help you set the tone and put some limits.

Unfortunately the Lore doesn't provide us with laws, or any real hints of law-enforcement in the city. Over the time, such things became expected on Defias Brotherhood. If our paladins just smote warlocks, and warlocks took it like men and sent out Felhounds in revenge, it would all be very easy. Our paladins and warlocks try to sue each other. And in the Game of Rules, the devil is in the details. So unfortunately the Dark Arts thing is a bit (understatement) longer than “Warlocks are totally okay as long as they are not in your face.”

My ideal, which means it is my aesthetic ideal and not something I ever intend to force down people's throats, is darklings are around, doing their darkling things in the army and in dark catacombs (Slaughtered Lambs) and if the Churchlings have a problem with it, they come and smite some WITHOUT resorting to Law. And those Warlocks just kick you back in the shins instead of running to the Council for justice. If guards are ever involved, the two groups just have to see who can lobby for sympathy the best.

Of course the political-legal conflict about the Dark Arts rules is interesting in itself, and I love doing it. I just hope we can keep doing it without resorting to Undeniable Arguments. If Jeremias walks into Council and says: “The King never made a proclamation allowing warlocks!” there isn't awful much I can say about it. Similarly, if I grab Jeremias by the ear and drag him to Northshire Abbey where there is right next to a holy place an open Demon Trainer (without function) and his Imp (without function too) and ask him why no cleric or guard has smitten it yet, he won't have much to say either.

That said, I would very much prefer if the whole discussion is kept to things that we can argue about, and can change. For example, the Church-controlled holy areas free of any dark artists are an excellent discussion to have. Demanding regular check-ups for corruption is an interesting discussion. Talking that 'warlocks must never, ever, ever, EVER be allowed in the city!' can be fun to do once or twice, but in the end we would still have to bow down to the fact that Slaughtered Lamb is in the city, it is lore, the King knows about it and does nothing. I would prefer the Church building a secret warlock-hunter order!

Overall, it is hard to have a heated rule-lawyer debate without running into issues of lore and authority. Fortunately I am VERY happy with how the RP has been unfolding so far.

by **erwtenpeller** Thu May 23, 2013 9:42 am

That post explained my issues much better then I could. Thank you. Smile

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Thu May 23, 2013 10:05 am

Maelmoor wrote:
erwtenpeller wrote:I don't have a problem with testing councillors for corruption. That is contained role-play.

But it appears to me that the players running this are raking more power and justification to themselves then they should. Why can't this be just from the motivation of the Light-worshipping guilds? Why does it need to be bigger?

It was honestly cringe-worthy that the arguments kept cycling back to the same nonsensical one-liner. It's clever, really. It's an argument very hard to refute in-character, while it is not correct for what I perceive as obvious out-of-character reasons.

What you think about warlocks OOCly, as most beging "good", is not how most see them IC, so I don't see the problem in this? Lorewise the Light is much more important than how it is IC on Defias, heck most Stormwinders would be followers of the Light (even if most would have a more passive view upon it).

Perhaps the Light as a religion, or a way of life but we must remember some things, by lore:

1)The 'ways of Light' are, as far as lore is concenred, very differentiated: the ultra-zealot way is just one of them and, by all means, sure not the most important in numbers. We have the Scarlets, the Knights of the Silver Hand/Argent Crusade, we have the Naaru. Considering that by lore the only human righteous good, and recognized as such, organization of paladins is the aforementioned Argent Crusade, which has no issue at all in fraternizing with death knights and warlocks, I don't see how such a political 'push' can work out.

2)The Church of Holy Light has close to no political power by lore. The only person from the Church close to the throne was ArchbishopBenedictus who was the Twilight Prophet. Aside of the very poor way DB has faced this important lore twist, it's definitely clear that Varian has no real interest in the Church's business and, considering he's the leader of the whole Alliance, it makes sense. Besides, it's very hard not to think that much mistrust towards the Church would be had by the secular authorities, meaning the various Ministers or commanders, considering the betrayal of its highest authority. If we add to this the Scarlet's peak of activity at the start of the expansion and, server lore wise, the betrayal of the Chapter(with even the murder of the chairlady, and almost the murdering of a minister), it's really hard not to see that the Church's requests would fall to deaf ears.

On the warlock thing I agree on ert for the most part, and I even add though some things: lore is clear about them being used overtly for years in the Army, commandered by the King himself in at least one occasion. The King prized them with weapons for their exploits, and one of them was even among those who helped Thrall defeating the Big Bad Dragon.The various guards in cities know perfectly where to find them, even if they may not like it(even stating so), but they do not arrest them. If anything, the King has nothing against the warlocks, and sure as hell won't allow the Church to start a witch-hunt, or even let it put in doubt is decisional skills about what he should do with them(which in the end is what these holy men are doing). Warlocks are part of the Alliance, soldiers allowed to study their arts and use them in battle. And that is a fact and should be acknowledged, IC and OOC. We like it or not.

/bow to Melnerag

by **Ralegh** Thu May 23, 2013 10:08 am

Melnerag wrote: And those Warlocks just kick you back in the shins instead of running to the Council for justice. If guards are ever involved, the two groups just have to see who can lobby for sympathy the best.

Let the bribing competition commence!
No but seriously... I will side with whatever side in this conflict pays up.
And yeah.. as a guard rper i never arrest or hunt people down just for being warlocks.
Have actually threatened to throw more zealots in cells for pestering warlocks than the other way around...

by **Drustai** Thu May 23, 2013 10:17 am

Guys, this conversation is cool and all, but could we keep things IC?

The RP has been very fun IC. Let's not threaten it with OOC arguing on forums.

by **erwtenpeller** Thu May 23, 2013 10:18 am

Yeah. You're right, I'll just stay away from it from now on. Smile

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Thu May 23, 2013 11:19 am

''lore is clear about them being used overtly for years in the Army, commandered by the King himself in at least one occasion.''

Hm they haven't been in the army ''for years'' since Fel only came along when the Orcs did. Light is pretty important, infact, the Archbishop ruled the Alliance for a short time before the King did. The Alliance is the main faith of the humans, all follow it apart from those that want to use evil magic.

And yes, lets please keep this IC. We all have our views on Lore, personally I don't take game mechanics as lore and some quests that don't fit in the overall lore either. The Warlock quest may hint to the King possibly accepting that hero class, but thats just a class quest for your hero toon and might not be known to every-one. The thing is, if we make every class good and acceptable, then the rivalry rp dies. Infact, seeing a Warlock who is kind and loving would be very creepy and wouldn't make sense for the class! So please, keep this IC. It would be very unusual for the Church to just accept this! We aren't the Horde!

by **siegmund** Thu May 23, 2013 12:15 pm

Conflict thowards just those who want you dead is boring if it goes on all the time. Conflict with those who serve the same goal (Say Alliance go yeah! Kill horde!) is more interesting sometimes.

In the end no side is perfect! Some key words being: Archbishop - Twilight hammer, Lots of humans - Joining cults/forsaking light, scarlets, etc

Adds more story! Sometimes it's strage yes how some say "I don't belive in the light." But seems strange when you can see it in front of you! Unlike some god. Church has their own thing going on, but in the end, those not being stupid peasants seem to go more a way of life. Well depends.

Anywho sadly I never have time for these meetings :< Might try to join one someday. Probably on my pala, rest tend to keep faith related matters to themselfs.

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