A horde council?

I write this because I got to thinking about something when I read Sophyra's post about the alliance council, and I know this is an idea that has been suggested and used in the past. Perhaps with various grades of success, but I am simply interested to see the level of interest that can be found regarding something like this. The Horde, on this server, aren't based around politics that much. The different races do their individual stuff and strikes up deals with eachother on the spot. When we do meet in a larger scale it's mostly on the basis of killing off alliance, which - granted - is a very great thing to unite around.

We have had the Covenant in the past to unite under, but it has not been active for a long while. Perhaps for a reason. But what I'm wondering is if there would be use, and perhaps good RP, in trying to form some kind of gathering for select individuals of the RP guilds of the Horde. Not ministers perhaps (since that's not really how alot of the races work) but rather representatives from the races/guilds (perhaps one or two from each). Meetings could be held every two or three weeks, with participants being individuals who can be assed to actually uphold such a thing. These meetings could be the basis towards some diplomatic operations, so that we have some contact between the different guilds, even at times of "peace", and there we could inform eachother of our current operations (to whatever degree we wish to do so).

Of course, something I have considered, this may well unnecessary in the end, but I for one always enjoyed the idea of some kind of relation between the different guilds, even if we don't care for eachother that much in the end. I am mostly basing this idea around RP only, but I know that Covenant had an interest in PvE in the past as well, but these days we mostly handle that by yelling alot in the different RP channels <_<

Should we revive the covenant, create something new, or just embrace or.. non-councilesque nature?

I'd love this. Mostly because, it'd be nice to see how many of us are actually skulking around. My only concern is that ICly we wouldn't get much done, the horde is seperated into two halves of which I'm aware of.

The Noble Horde, Think Red Blades, Mistrunner, Sin belore.

Then you have the morally-questionable horde, The Dark Horde. Cultists, SGE, Grimtotem and Blackbloods. Sunfury.

And although, I've seen The Cultists drift between the lines for various benefits. I do think that a large collective of us IC would 'cause some friction; Which can be fun! But not all the time. We would definately need some sort of concrete speaking method, with punishments to -anyone- who abuses them.

Something like the Covenant/Warcouncil, you might want to talk to an orc that starts with r and ends with argnasha.
*shifty eyes*

Also the two different parts that vect mentioned, I think starting with that might make it easier, since instead of putting cats and dogs together, you get different kind of dog (irish wolfhound, german shepherd, newfoundlander, you know, big and awesome dogs)

I have been thinking about the differences between the Horde "factions" so to speak as well, and the trouble it may cause. Perhaps a thought would be that despite the differences laid out before eachother, at least in times of war, we need eachother. That way the representatives of each guild or such need to have some diplomatic skills, so that we do not end up screaming at eachother.

I am aware that Rargnasha has started talking about something along reviving the covenant, but this is simply my attempt at seeing the level of interest that there is to be had around it. Consider it an open question to the Horde "community". If anything, it'll help in any other endeavour of trying to get us all to "get along".

Belf military is in atleast!

My last server has a Horde Council and it worked quite well. It consisted of simple represntitives of each race. (Or in our case major race-guilds) meeting in Orgrimmar every two weeks.

The horde needs -something- at least that can step in and be the coordinating force for everyone else, at least OOCly. Big events just don't work when people have to rely on second- or third-hand information about events. If no IC gathering of the races is created, then an OOC group that can make sure that info reaches everyone should be, at least.

As for the different groupings within the Horde, I know Shrogan has made some thoughts already as well about how some of the currently feuding races can be brought closer together in a way that ICly makes sense. There'd still be factions that absolutely wouldn't get along no matter what though (ie: one group that's defending their race's land and another that is working to undermine/overthrow it). Inviting both would be like having both lighties and cultists openly on the stormwind council.

There may be a point where we would just have to make people choose between RPing being a part of the unified Horde fighting against the alliance, or else RPing the antagonist within the Horde. Trying to do both would break down sooner or later, unless everyone evolved engaged in massive metagaming to accommodate it.

I imagine this would cover more than just war-related meetings, from what I understand. Besides, there have always been war councils -- just not on a monthly or so basis.

The trickiest part of all this, in my honest opinion, is that there are -way- too few "true" Horde races. In fact, there are more "dark" (as far as the dark side goes, anyway, but I'll just use this term in a lack of anything more suitable other than "Horde-ragers") guilds on the Horde side than there are normal Horde guilds, which I personally find a bit of a shame. This would ultimately mean that, if there were to be meetings of pure Horde guilds only, they would be pre-tty damn poorly attended, and ultimately die out.

With true you mean closer to Thrall's ideology?

I would guess true in the sense that the groups are genuinely "loyal" (even if only reluctantly because that is permanently in their own best interest) to the Horde as a whole and would not do anything for their own gain at the expense of the rest of the Horde.

Suppose it's somewhat regardless of whether it'd be Thrall or later Garrosh, really. There are some guilds out there that would want to see some of the other guilds/races dead, or "officially" consider themselves no part of the Horde or exiled for example. Sure, bringing them together on a meeting to try and work together on would be good, but you can't be both at the same time. You're either in the Horde, or you're "outlawed", so to speak. There's been this "secret agenda" thing going on with nearly every guild these past few years that would undermine such "fruitful" meetings.

As long as it doesn't turn into a godawful circlejerk

Two representatives for each race's faction and an extra representative (or ambassador if the guild is not part of the horde) for each guild involved, so no guilds are left out

I like this idea. But I also agree with Kozgugore; guilds that don't consider themselves a part of Thrall's Horde should have no place in it.

Gnash wrote:I like this idea. But I also agree with Kozgugore; guilds that don't consider themselves a part of Thrall's Horde should have no place in it.

Define, that? You mean, guilds that openly say "We don't give a !@#$ about anyone, just care for our own good", or generally guilds who are not like-minded with the Orcs, whether its openly, or only closed to inner members, agenda?

The Don Kid could be part of this and you know it!

Ehm uhh, yeah.

Oh yes please, two "war" or whatever councils on both factions, oocly interacting could lead to some fantastic events I reckon, events that could be interesting to anyone willing to participate

edit: or rather both factions playing into eachother

The war council on Horde side has basically been alive all this time, really. It just hasn't been called upon for at least a year, since there haven't been any particularly noteworthy events or the like coming up that would concern the entire Horde. So as I said, I don't think this "council" should be based purely on war, as way too much of the cooperation on Horde side has only purely been about war, as Morgeth already stated.

I like Tashun's idea for an ambassador. That way even the SGE could participate and have a say, even if they are officially distanced from the Horde itself. The guilds that would have problems showing up there would be the outright criminal ones perhaps, and those openly working against eachother (Blackbloods and Red blade, for example). I don't know what guilds are openly opposing the Horde (with Thrall and Garrosh) so perhaps there are more, so to speak.

The council, as I imagine it, would be involved in diplomatic measures, but also war, and the more mundane parts of trying to communicate with eachother. This gives individuals of each race that others can contact if they want to bring up a certain matter to said council.

As some knows, a great war will soon be had up in Northend, however, the war here had another purpose than just good ol' W-PvP as we love it.
I also had the idea of using the event to kick-start a ressurection of the Covenant or the birth of a new 'order'.
At first it was indeed just to be a War council, but I reckon it'd be pretty interesting to buildt more onto that idea.
I've already spoken with Morgy and Rasonal about this.
I'd like to hear some thoughts for and against Ambassadors though.
For example, which guilds would be allowed to have ambassadors and why?
For example, Im thinking of the known members of 'The Dark Horde', if we'd start inviting them, then we could as good as well start inviting the alliance, that's atleast what my character would think!
Also, I think it would be neat with three 'types of councils' (Talked with Morgy, who made me realise it'd be an overkill)
But if we say we have two/three representives at the council, something like:
Religions, Relations and war.
I reckon it could be good for arrenging more cross race spiritual events, which might make other guilds adapt more to a horde wide basis and support a tigther knit community.

I like the idea too. And I wouldn't mind taking part in the effort.
Horde is quite warlike, so to me it'd make sense for it to kickstart from a war effort, were it Rarg's plan or any other. But it'd be a good idea to expand to wider pastures, maybe something in the event makes the races decide to start some kind of council or gathering?
And naturally the most logical meeting place would be Orgrimmar as the orcs are dominant in the Horde, still I think that it would be refreshing and someone might say 'fair', if the place would atleast occasionally change to other capitals. That would give orcish diplomats and ambassadors a chance to travel too.
I'm sure that we can think of a logical reason to have the 'out of Horde' guilds have atleast an envoy or two in the meetings. SGE seems atleast Horde aligned and together with the Blackblood they add a layer of defense against the Alliance. The common enemy could be enough to lower the rage in these meetings. If the Cult is notorious enough not to merit a place in the regular way, they could attend so the others would better keep an eye on their doings.
After all, in times of necessity Horde has had dealings with centaur and the like too!

I think someone wondered about the Cult in the cogs of the 'Noble Horde
and the 'Dark Horde'. I've pieced a picture that ideologically the Cult's with the Dark Horde, the happenings when SGE was in Hillsbrad only made it stronger.
However because of the Wrathgate we're ICly quite tightly under the Kor'kron oppression, making us technically the Noble Horde's asset. I'm not sure how known the Cult's dealings with the Blackbloods and SGE is, but unless your spy network's better than I've hoped, we shouldn't be yet openly hostile and exiled from the 'real Horde'. Update me, if I'm mistaken. >.>

Hopefully my brainstorming was of use.

Thenkar wrote:I like the idea too. And I wouldn't mind taking part in the effort.
Horde is quite warlike, so to me it'd make sense for it to kickstart from a war effort, were it Rarg's plan or any other. But it'd be a good idea to expand to wider pastures, maybe something in the event makes the races decide to start some kind of council or gathering?
And naturally the most logical meeting place would be Orgrimmar as the orcs are dominant in the Horde, still I think that it would be refreshing and someone might say 'fair', if the place would atleast occasionally change to other capitals. That would give orcish diplomats and ambassadors a chance to travel too.
I'm sure that we can think of a logical reason to have the 'out of Horde' guilds have atleast an envoy or two in the meetings. SGE seems atleast Horde aligned and together with the Blackblood they add a layer of defense against the Alliance. The common enemy could be enough to lower the rage in these meetings. If the Cult is notorious enough not to merit a place in the regular way, they could attend so the others would better keep an eye on their doings.
After all, in times of necessity Horde has had dealings with centaur and the like too!

I think someone wondered about the Cult in the cogs of the 'Noble Horde
and the 'Dark Horde'. I've pieced a picture that ideologically the Cult's with the Dark Horde, the happenings when SGE was in Hillsbrad only made it stronger.
However because of the Wrathgate we're ICly quite tightly under the Kor'kron oppression, making us technically the Noble Horde's asset. I'm not sure how known the Cult's dealings with the Blackbloods and SGE is, but unless your spy network's better than I've hoped, we shouldn't be yet openly hostile and exiled from the 'real Horde'. Update me, if I'm mistaken. >.>

Hopefully my brainstorming was of use.

Might actually be an idea to find somewhere outside the capitals to hold this. Orgrimmar, Undercity and to a lesser extent Thunderbluff, don't really have any suitable areas that don't see a constant traffic by OOC'ers (I doubt the UC sewers would do for meetings). I'm guessing Silvermoon is too far out of the way for the majority of people as well.

As for having secretly "malicious" groups on the council, I really don't think that would work in the long term. As Koz said, there's already more groups on Horde RPing some concept or another that involves advancing the groups' own goals at the cost of the Horde, than there are groups genuinely about strengthening the Horde as a whole. The whole council would either quickly be mired in IC drama about corruption (just look at how much drama there is around the SW council, and that's without any actual corruption), or else everyone else would have to metagame ignorance of anything that might cast suspicion on the malicious parties, just to maintain the status quo.

Good idea, Saevir. I'd think the outskirts would do nicely. Rarg's meeting is in Razor Hill, if I remember well, so I think there are good places for it. UC alternative could be Brill's Townhall. It has a good podium for the speaker and benches for waiters.
I cannot really say about the other towns, but there should be plenty of good places to hold the meetings. Of course, if they're not too regular, people wouldn't mind going a bit further to reach the place, I suppose.

And aye, secrets have the nature of coming out. I'm not that familiar with the drama in SW council, but I'll trust your word. Best way would be to lay some kinds of IC grounds for the council to have a pact to lay down the arms during the meetings. There are some examples of that in both history and fantasy. Then we just have to try and keep the needless scheming to minimul to avoid too much drama from that. Or something. *shrug*

Aye, I reckon having each race hold the meeting at a place of theirs would serve the best interest ICly, to enhance the impression that it's a meeting of equals and not just one race dominating.
There's also some nice places in Northend, one I can think of is Warsong hold with the Large map of Northend at the floor, where Garrosh is playing with his dol- Where he's talking tactics with Saurfang.

Warsong hold is awesome, maybe hold the first 2-3 meetings there and then change around, to get some details ironed out first.