Re: Using both shadow and holy

by **Shaelyssa** Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:05 pm

My opinion on the subject of Elune/Mu'sha (not Muisha!):

It has been stated many times in the Warcraft Encyclopedia that the moon goddess, Elune, grants select priestesses of Elune miraculous powers who are able to call upon these powers through battle chants and prayers. These powers range from "[calling] down Elune's wrath to smite an enemy [and] prayers [that] can heal even the gravely wounded."

Elune has been "strongly associated with healing, peace, and tolerance [... and] one of Elune's aspects since ancient times has been the Night Warrior". This leads me to believe that Elune has many different faces, just like the waning and waxing moon. She can grant healing powers and powers that can smite an enemy. Whether these powers are from the "Light" or "Shadow", I don't know.

However, personally, I don't like associating the priestesses' powers to the "Light" or "Shadow". I think their powers deserve a class all to their own: "Divine" or "Nature" magic. Unlike the Church of the Holy Light who follow a set of ideals, the Sisterhood of Elune worship a real goddess who grants them powers. And so, in the case of wielding both the "Light" and the "Shadow", the priestesses of Elune could be viewed as wielding powers somewhat similair to the Light and the Shadow but still totally different and alien to them.

Although, we have seen the Wardens in WC3 summoning "Avatars of Vengeance" and also having powers that seem very, very, very like the "Shadow". So I think in their case, they perhaps are using the Shadow and are drawing upon it through their need for revenge or whatever. Maeiv Shadowsong was once a priestess, so that is the only case I can think of where the night elves are using the "Shadow", albeit unknowlingly, and not Elune's magic.

To reiterate, Elune has many diffent aspects and facets but I'm not exactly sure that the priestesses of Elune are using Light and Shadow magic, more divine/nature/Elune magic - if that makes sense. In any case, I'm not even sure myself so I may be completely and utterly wrong.

As a last point, I always thought the Light and Shadow were polar opposites so I don't see how somebody can call upon them both(?).

by **Lini** Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:22 pm

At this point of the discussion it should be made clear that Light and Holy Light are different things.

Light and its counterpart Shadow are sources of divine power. All priests draw their power from one (or as this discussion has pointed out, sometimes both) of them. It is the nature of their personality/faith/beliefs/etc that define which one is the source.

Holy Light is the religion practised mostly by humans and dwarves. It is through their faith in the Holy Light that these priests draw power from the Light.
Similarily night elf priests draw their powers from the same source through their faith in Elune. Tauren through their faith in An'she, trolls through their faith in the Loa, etc, etc.

Same goes for Shadow, with forsaken priests and the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow being the best example.

by **Shaelyssa** Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:22 pm

Oh and I'd just like to say that I don't really especially care what people want to role-play :p. Just wanted to express my little opinion on the matter

by **Grufftoof** Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:46 pm

Thats the best thing about this discussion so far, save the fact it feels like I'm stoned (and I haven't been stoned in years). The fact that (so far) all ideas seem good, and possible. Nothing has been deemed RP Heresy.

by **Calisar** Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:00 pm

The Draenei are indeed the Na'aru's blessed, thusly a lot closer to the Light than any other race could be. At the same time however, and after taking a look at their history as a nation, they are the closest a race could ever get to the Legion as well

Well something clicked for me there when you wrote that, all starting to make sense ^^ thanks for the reply!

*wanders off with a cuppa to read up on Eredar*

by **Halya** Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:29 pm

There is a theory that Elune is a Naaru. And it holds some water. I don't subscribe to it, but hey. Also, yes, priestesses of Elune do draw upon the light. Because she adheres to virtues that cause one to live a lifestyle that reflects upon the light over shadow - her divine users draw upon the light - either through her or directly.

On the point of draenei being close to the legion, yes... Sort of. Its so heavily culturally ingrained in the exiles that they are the enemy, that anyone who breaks out of that is pretty much nigh upon unavoidably mental.

And I've said it before - to use the light, you have to be 'good', a nice person, a good person, kind, selfless, etc. To use the shadow, you have to be 'bad', cruel, selfish, sadistic, etc. Anyone who wants to use both without having something giving them multiple personality disorder or something to the same effect, has to be able to justify being able to radically change the nature of their personality from one moment to the next.

by **Mandui** Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:36 pm

Halya wrote:
And I've said it before - to use the light, you have to be 'good', a nice person, a good person, kind, selfless, etc. To use the shadow, you have to be 'bad', cruel, selfish, sadistic, etc. Anyone who wants to use both without having something giving them multiple personality disorder or something to the same effect, has to be able to justify being able to radically change the nature of their personality from one moment to the next.

Saevir wrote:
That's the thing about it being hard to fulfill the requirements for channeling both. The caster would have to be able to slip from different frames of mind and willfully convince themselves of the rightness of certain values, possibly suppressing their own natural beliefs, and then slip out of those convictions afterwards. It does imply a whole lot of psychological baggage for the person doing this, and I'd be surprised if there weren't some very deep-set issues in the people walking this path, even if they don't necessarily show it.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:11 pm

Halya wrote:
And I've said it before - to use the light, you have to be 'good', a nice person, a good person, kind, selfless, etc.

Two words, Scarlet Crusade. I believe you have to be righteous to wield the light, doesn't matter if it's self-righteous or not.
Using the light is not about being good, but believing you are right, it requires conviction.

by **Gesh** Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:30 pm

To me the Light will always be that idea of you -thinking- your acting selfless and brave. It's a flow of postive emotion mixed with faith. whilst shadow is more, Knowing you want to be stronger, and inflicting your inner-strength unto those who would challenge you.

On the side however, I do believe not knowing exactly how either Disc, Shadow or Holy works. Is what makes it so cool..

by **Halya** Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:00 pm

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Halya wrote:
And I've said it before - to use the light, you have to be 'good', a nice person, a good person, kind, selfless, etc.

Two words, Scarlet Crusade. I believe you have to be righteous to wield the light, doesn't matter if it's self-righteous or not.
Using the light is not about being good, but believing you are right, it requires conviction.

The scarlets are still doing some things 'right'. They don't necessarily say, take pleasure in inflicting pain on other humans. They see it as a necessity to protect themselves. Most of what the scarlets have done wrong is about being misguided, not being 'evil'.

by **Gahalla** Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:09 pm

Halya wrote:
The scarlets are still doing some things 'right'. They don't necessarily say, take pleasure in inflicting pain on other humans. They see it as a necessity to protect themselves. Most of what the scarlets have done wrong is about being misguided, not being 'evil'.

I'd say it's even more complicated than that... they're doing what they do to protect not themselves formost, but thousands of innocent villagers and the remaining citzens of Hearthglen and Tyr's Hand. As well as protecting the rest of the world from the scourge. They live in a enviroment were all it takes is allowing a single traveller the benfit of the doubt and a city may fall to the scourge. Anything you cannot vouch for yourself is a potential cultist of the damned... you can't even trust the dead.

They're not righteous... but desperate. Giving up not only their time, their lives but also their honour and conscience in order to protect their wards and the world. No matter the cost.

Amusingly enough... the amount of Light users in the scarlet crusade is rather high. But in the Scarlet Onslaught they're much less common (the amount of shadow-users on the other hand has sharply increased).

by **Halya** Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:42 pm

Agreed with all of that. But I'll confess the scarlets are not my area of expertise.

by Guest Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:02 pm

My opnion is that it's obvious that the Shadow and the Light are not to be used by the same character, this is impossible.

Why? Shadow magic -IS- evil and corruptive, you NEED to be evil to use Shadow. for CLASS-balance it is obvious that Blizzard allows warlocks and shadowpriests into the alliance and all that, but you cannot use Shadow and not be corrupted. Heck, you cannot even become very powerful with arcane and not face corruption eventually.

Shadow isn't just another source of power one can tap into, it's evil. It's corrupted arcane magic and to wield Shadow you need to be corrupted already, I believe. Warlocks are corrupted, they just aren't insane yet, but who knows what immoral things they do.

And for a human priestress, they would be wielding the Holy Light, wich would never allow itself to be combined with Shadow, as a shadowpriest is a corrupted evil priest.

And I believe the Lights' power are only used by those who's devotion to it is right and those who believe they are doing the right thing. And the Scarlets are ARGUABLY not evil at all. They wipe out undead and protect their fellows any means necessary. They have no idea what they do is evil and neither will they ever do something purposely evil.

Oh and don't expect to use shadowmagic in any powerful rate without your character slowly succumbing to the hefty burden of this immensely powerful magic. I.e. becoming ill, attracting powerful demons, becoming insane, wanting to torture and kill innocents etc. etc.

In my eyes wielding both the Light and Shadow, at the same time, is sheer poweremoting as using the two most powerful magic-types known will make you almost omnipotent. However if you implend a good switch, like with the demon-thing, I suppose it's possible.. but prepare for the reprocussions.

by **Cathee Norris** Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:21 pm

It's one of those things that is up to each person to form their own opinion about. Just like lore is overall.

It also depends on how well someone roleplay either. So the only thing one can really do is give everyone a chance. Whether or not you think what the person does is right or wrong, everyone should get a chance to evolve and create their character. Then people can judge after they've tried RPing with said person, depending on if they liked it or not.

by Guest Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:26 pm

Saihna/Julia wrote:It's one of those things that is up to each person to form their own opinion about. Just like lore is overall.

It also depends on how well someone roleplay either. So the only thing one can really do is give everyone a chance. Whether or not you think what the person does is right or wrong, everyone should get a chance to evolve and create their character. Then people can judge after they've tried RPing with said person, depending on if they liked it or not.

Although you are completly correct and we make our own lore, partially. But where do we draw the line? Do we start ignoring blizzards lore, taking away the interesting aspects of playing either side of the magics and taking both advantages and disadvantages in regard?

I do believe there's a line to be drawn when you disregard the world itself, it's setting and it's lore and begin to play things like.. owning nuclear missiles or silenced machineguns.

Wielding both the Shadow and Holy would not only be strictly impossible lorewise, it would make you practically undestroyable. Shadow and Light are each others opposers, it's like playing rock paper scissors, yet you're both rock and scissors. Neither rock, paper or scissors will be able to win against you.

by **Cathee Norris** Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:34 pm

That's the thing do. We see the lore differently. I personally have read that it is possible to have mixes. While as you read as if it is purely black and white. And essentially, there is no right or wrong. Because it all depends on how we see and read the lore.

by Guest Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:37 pm

Saihna/Julia wrote:That's the thing do. We see the lore differently. I personally have read that it is possible to have mixes. While as you read as if it is purely black and white. And essentially, there is no right or wrong. Because it all depends on how we see and read the lore.

Even if we disregard the sheer amount of lore against it, it would also grant a player ICly immense power. Neither side of magic users would be able to defeat said player, since they can just make a "switch" or, even better, use both powers at the same time. A holy shield whilst casting a shadow bolt?

by **Cathee Norris** Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:41 pm

Again, that is up to the player though. Not to how we see the lore. If someone play a God, then that is bad. No matter how they see the lore. Nor would it matter, cause if someone want to RP God powers, they will one way or the other.

by Guest Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:50 pm

Saihna/Julia wrote:Again, that is up to the player though. Not to how we see the lore. If someone play a God, then that is bad. No matter how they see the lore. Nor would it matter, cause if someone want to RP God powers, they will one way or the other.

Although what you say is, of course, completly correct the player in question asked the question.

My opinion:
Being infected with a demon, that uses shadowpowers, whilst wielding Light powers yourself is, in essence, PERHAPS possible.. a demonic possession would be easily sensed -and- affect the person possessed aswell. You cannot be possessed by a demon without any reprocussions and it would be sensed by any paladin ranging on the power of the demon. Be it a demon as powerful as a dreadlord, they can remain fully hidden of course. But I would advice against RPing a dreadlord as they are almost the most powerful demons there are. The concept of being infected with a demon is of course very interesting, and wielding both the Light and Shadow is very interesting, it brings immense power with it IC aswell. This is of course fun for you to play.

But in WoW immense power comes at immense cost, if you wish to play such a character you must of course play all the downsides. Some examples: Being sensed by paladins, being defeaten, not being able to use your powers of Light, not being in full control of your character, not managing to disguise it, becoming ill, becoming corrupted fully, becoming insane, the host dying and the demon taking over.. etc. etc.

by **Gilraen** Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:56 pm

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:

Even if we disregard the sheer amount of lore against it, it would also grant a player ICly immense power. Neither side of magic users would be able to defeat said player, since they can just make a "switch" or, even better, use both powers at the same time. A holy shield whilst casting a shadow bolt?

Nah, these kind of examples tend to have failsafes lorewise. If you attempt to wield a mix of powers you tend to be rather weaker in those than a disciple of a single one. In essence you gain more tools to use but they are not as strong as they could be as a result. Quantity over quality more or less?

To be honest its not the concept that tends to be lacking most of the time, just the way it is potrayed/rped. On someone it could end up lame, on another pure awesome.

by **(Goggy) - Exilius** Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:59 pm

Basically the player whom chooses to believe that they can use both powers get's to be the l33t superi0r m4st3r g0d. Cool

by **Lini** Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:36 pm

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:
Why? Shadow magic -IS- evil and corruptive, you NEED to be evil to use Shadow. for CLASS-balance it is obvious that Blizzard allows warlocks and shadowpriests into the alliance and all that, but you cannot use Shadow and not be corrupted. Heck, you cannot even become very powerful with arcane and not face corruption eventually.

Shadow isn't just another source of power one can tap into, it's evil. It's corrupted arcane magic and to wield Shadow you need to be corrupted already, I believe. Warlocks are corrupted, they just aren't insane yet, but who knows what immoral things they do.

See, the problem here is that you're talking about Arcane Shadow magic. Priests use Divine Shadow magic which is a completely different thing. It's not corruptive, nor is it in any way related to arcane. It's a divine power usable by those whose moral compass points towards "selfish bastard". I'd say it's not even necessarily a must to be evil to use Divine Shadow. It just comes very easily as a by-product of the required mentality to be able to use Divine Shadow.

Oh and don't expect to use shadowmagic in any powerful rate without your character slowly succumbing to the hefty burden of this immensely powerful magic. I.e. becoming ill, attracting powerful demons, becoming insane, wanting to torture and kill innocents etc. etc.

Again, demons and such are not related to Divine Shadow.
The only thing in common with warlocks and shadow priests is that they're both lumped under the shadow school of magic in game mechanics. Lore-wise their magic has nothing in common.

by **Saevir** Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:27 pm

Exactly. Same way that the arcane school spells of druids has nothing to do with the arcane magic of mages.

by **Gilraen** Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:31 pm

Saevir wrote:Exactly. Same way that the arcane school spells of druids has nothing to do with the arcane magic of mages.

That might not be entirely correct. Arcane currents, ley lines and celestial spheres are part of the cosmos and druids are able to naturally tap into them as they are part of nature.

Spoiler:

Do arcane spellcasters merely tap into the same sources, but follow a more forcefull approach, or they tap into the nether?
Of course the philosophy that either group follows reflects differently into their spellcasting and its effects. Considering arcane spellcasters attempt to use their magic to shape the enviroment and world around them to their wishes, knowing that concetrated use of their magic can shatter the fabric of reality allowing demons to pass through, one may speculate that both use different "energy sources".

But it may also be a result of the magical practises of arcane spellcasters who merely tap into the same magical/energy pool.

by Guest Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:14 pm

Lini wrote:Devine Shadow.

I'm sorry? Where did you find this piece of information?

I'm interested to know so I know a lil more about lore and magic and stuff! I never knew of anything called "devine shadow".

by Sponsored content