Re: Warlords of Draenor - General Discussion

by **Lexgrad** Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:00 pm

Spoiler:

by **Zaraj** Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:08 pm

Spoiler:

by **Ixirar** Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:40 pm

Spoiler:

by **Lexgrad** Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:51 pm

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
Spoiler:

XD

by **Coppersocket** Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:46 pm

10/10

by **Zouyo** Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:18 am

To at least get everyone on the same page in terms of information, since a summary of a translated version of a translation of a few sentences in a single interview may not be the best foundation for a 24-page discussion, here's an overview of our current thinking:

We will have Normal and Heroic versions of our max-level dungeons. (Note that we did not have Normal level 90 dungeons in Mists.)
There will be no special requirement other than basic level/ilvl requirements on queuing for Normal dungeons or LFR.
Level-up quest gear will get you into Normal dungeons/scenarios, and Normal dungeon/scenario gear will get you into LFR.
Heroic dungeons will be more challenging than the Normal version (not brutally difficult, mind you -- just somewhat more demanding).
You will need a Silver Proving Grounds medal in a given role in order to queue for random matchmaking for a Heroic Warlords dungeon. If you form a premade group, you can zone in regardless and no such requirement applies.

In the past, challenging content and random matchmaking have often not gone so well together. Relying on item level does nothing to prevent a random group from getting, for example, a tank who may literally have never tanked before. Everyone has to learn somewhere, but we'd rather not have that learning come at other players' expense. One option would be to require a full premade group to do Heroic Dungeons, as we do with Heroic Scenarios, but that would present a very high barrier to entry (finding 4 other people with rigid role requirements is much harder than finding 2 other people with no role requirements). This solution represents a compromise in order to allow the content to see a broader reach via matchmaking, while minimizing frustration.

And yes, we realize that by formally using Proving Grounds as a qualification, it will be incumbent upon us to further refine their balance and mechanics. We'll be updating them for Warlords, and we're confident that we can make them a fair test of baseline ability within a given role.

So, we'll have people who know how to play their specs in HC's and in LFR. Sounds like a goodish plan to have it done this way.

by **Coppersocket** Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:53 pm

Silver isn't hard tho. I just hope they make Gold tanking feel less about luck.

May just be me getting tunnel vision too, but I've more than a few times easily been able to blame that retarded NPC for not healing me.

I think proving grounds should give the option to tackle each challenge with a group (Maybe it does already? Haven't actually checked) so that you don't have to rely on questionable NPCs.

by **Lexgrad** Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:02 pm

Group proving grounds could be fun thing generally, if it could be balanced.

I would rather they made all HC content need PuGs rather than LFGs tbh but I suppose this might help. I dont think that the newbs will treat it as a learning experience and will try to achieve silver the easiest way they can just to parasite off LFG content as ever. As Copper says, Silver is easy anyway, got it first time on my mage.

AFAIK Raidfinder is going to be stupidly easy next expac anyway, I dont care about it anyway, I just hope that HC 5 mans are at least interesting.

by **Zinkle Figgins** Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:50 pm

I like this idea, although I still think the problem with WoW doesn't lie in people's skill (often low, but who cares) but in the widespread toxic behavior. But after all what can Blizzard do if people are assholes?

by **Zaraj** Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:52 pm

Can only speak for myself, but it was more or less always the RP that was the main factor for playing WoW, cause the game itself wasn't that interesting.

But having something to do within the game was also the only reason I put up with it. Mists of Pandaria was the only time where I was totally disinterested in the game and had nothing to do, despite there being a lot of options and LFR and all that shit. It came to such a point where it wasn't worth it for the RP and I stopped playing.

Something that I'd personally play the shit out of is a more casual, fun version of PvP. Cause compared to their philosophy that "everyone should experience the raiding content", their ideas around pvp are ancient. Why do you only have RGB and Arena as the source of conquest gear?

Because the PvP community (which is probably the sole reason, cause Blizzard listens too much to their community to begin with) figures that conquest points = skill in pvp. And a casual shouldn't have skill in pvp or conquest points, even though I could just get into a scrub 2v2 team and torture myself through 10 games or w/e if I even wanted the conquest points that badly.

As much as they speak about options, the PvP is very limited. Unless their sentiment is "if you're casual, you go random BGs and enjoy yourself", which is a pretty hilarious statement, cause then I'll be sitting on gear that is 30+ ilvls lower than any arena scrub, or the notion that trying to win random BGs is something of joy.

How hard is it to make some form of constant Wpvp area which is designed in style to the old alterac valley? A place for people to just go and kill each other etc, instead of pissing off players in WSG by going mid and just camping? A place for casual pvpers who enjoyed Hillsbrad and hate the cancer that is arena?

Don't mean to derail the thread, but hey.

by **Ruby** Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:58 pm

Zaraj wrote:
How hard is it to make some form of constant Wpvp area which is designed in style to the old alterac valley? A place for people to just go and kill each other etc, instead of pissing off players in WSG by going mid and just camping? A place for casual pvpers who enjoyed Hillsbrad and hate the cancer that is arena?

That's what [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is going to be.

by **Muzjhath** Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:03 pm

Zaraj wrote:
Because the PvP community (which is probably the sole reason, cause Blizzard listens too much to their community to begin with) figures that conquest points = skill in pvp. And a casual shouldn't have skill in pvp or conquest points, even though I could just get into a scrub 2v2 team and torture myself through 10 games or w/e if I even wanted the conquest points that badly.

Umm, from what I've mostly seen, historically speaking, most of the really hardcore wellrated PvPers want a removal of different gear in PvP all together and just have set stats. (simplified).
So not sure from where you get the Conquest points = skill.

by **Zaraj** Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:09 pm

It sounds in concept what I may aching for, but knowing Blizzard and how they have handled the two previous Wpvp zones that became little more than occasional BGs, it's hard to trust them to execute it right. How much objectives gives points, if it even gives Conquest points and how they design it to make it end up something different than your average BG is something I'm feeling they won't get right. However,

no distinct beginning or end

and

the number of players and the amount of faction members allowed in the zone won’t be capped

Invokes some promise, at least.

by **Zaraj** Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:16 pm

Muzjhath wrote:
Zaraj wrote:
Because the PvP community (which is probably the sole reason, cause Blizzard listens too much to their community to begin with) figures that conquest points = skill in pvp. And a casual shouldn't have skill in pvp or conquest points, even though I could just get into a scrub 2v2 team and torture myself through 10 games or w/e if I even wanted the conquest points that badly.
Umm, from what I've mostly seen, historically speaking, most of the really hardcore wellrated PvPers want a removal of different gear in PvP all together and just have set stats. (simplified).
So not sure from where you get the Conquest points = skill.

IIRC there was an outcry about the changes to the ilvl changes in 5.3, where they decreased the top set's ilvl.

I also made this point above on the official forums, where a majority of the response was just that, "if you go casual you shouldn't have the best gear." Now considering it was the WoW forums, it shouldn't come as a surprise. At the same time, they make up the playerbase that Blizzard seems to listen to.

by **Ixirar** Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:38 pm

Blizz had nothing to do with executing Hillsbrad. That's on the players.

If there's no WPVP, it's the players ruining it, by not participating.'

Also, top PVPers are a very very small minority. They aren't big enough to cause an outcry so if you heard an outcry it wasn't them.

by **Thelos** Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:13 pm

Hillsbrad was terrible, though.

by **Cid** Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:48 pm

The reason Hillsbrad is remembered for its PvP was due to the small distance between Tarren Mill and Southshore, resulting in questers getting killed, calling in their guildmates, then fullscale warfare. I still miss those days, and I severly dislike Cataclysm for basically removing anything that resembles W-PvP in the lower level questzones.
I mean, Horde and Alliance basically level up separately from eachother now. I can't remember seeing 1 friggin' Horde while levelling my hunter until Dragonblight, unlike back when Hillsbrad was a questing zone for both factions that had PLENTY of oppurtunities to attack one another just by being in the same area doing quests that made you venture somewhat close to one another, instead of having ale-escort dailies in a remote pass that no logical person ever bothers to go to for example.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:22 pm

I echo what cid says.

However, I'd like to be more specific.

LFG for levelers, and flying mounts in general... these things killed W-pvp. people don't meet each other anymore, because either their in a dungeon, or flying.

by **Muzjhath** Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:41 pm

I used to love that feeling of paranoia when leveling in Stranglethorne.

Best anti-gank I've ever had was there.
TBC, leveling my rogue. Frost Mage 2 levels up jump me at the nesingwary camp.
I get him low, FROST NOVA!
He runs off with like 10 health, I've got like 50. Starts casting.

"Thrown".

He did not expect it.

by **Shaelyssa** Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:54 pm

Im really unsure of these expansions blizz has been pulling out since wotlk ... i really REALLY liked wotlk, cataclysm was quite good tbh but mop has been meh so far and this new one isnt really exciting me tbh ...

by **The Z** Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:29 am

Reading that, I began to wonder what they've got in store for the next expansion(s)...can't really squeeze out that many spectacular features anymore, right? New race(s) and class(es) in the next one, I guess? Or do it WoTLK style by having one in the next expansion and the other in the expansion after that? Revamp TBC content in one or the other to offer something for low-level folks? How about them areas for high-level folks, Emeral Dream and Argus? Though I imagine the latter one will be featured in the final expansion, if in something. Open up those Darkmoon Faire tents in the 7th expansion, maybe?

Technicality wise...I don't know. Have a team HD up all the old low-res looking equipment to better suit new character models? Add...I don't know. You probably can't push the game-engine too much anymore without breaking it.

The annyoing part in this is that I'm just speculating these out of boredom. Back some years ago, I still did this for fun, thinking and hoping for all the cool features they could add. Now it's just mostly a big "meh". So...meh, we'll have to wait and see, I guess. Blizzcon 2014, here we come!

by **Coppersocket** Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:33 am

I assume the next big thing will be sub-races, then expanded player housing of some sort.

There's still a ton of stuff they could do really.

by **Zinkle Figgins** Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:11 pm

From an interview with Ion Hazzikostas ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]):

Beta / Misc
Beta is Soon™
The team has been working hard since Blizzcon to make the content. The team has even added another boss to the Highmaul raid since Blizzcon!
Gul'dan isn't the threat in Warlords of Draenor, Grommash and the Iron Horde are. Gul'dan might even be an ally against them.

Classes and Races
Casters have slightly too many instant cast spells, especially healers that can keep themselves alive without ever using a spell with a cast time.
Melee used to be the masters of damage on the move compared to ranged, but over time ranged got more and more abilities that allowed them to do damage on the move.
Many classes will have talents that change depending on your spec. For example, From Darkness, Comes Light is really two talents built into one spell. This results in either talents that are bland or talents that do two separate things.
When it makes sense in Warlords of Draenor one spec may have one talent option, while another spec will have access to another. Almost all of the Level 100 talents work this way, and some older talents will also work like this.
For example, the Mage Bomb talent row could have all three bomb spells consolidated into one talent, which gives the mage a bomb based on their spec. This would free up two spaces on that row for more talent choices.
No brown skin for Orc players is planned right now, but the team has heard all of the player interest in subraces.

Dungeons and Scenarios
Mists of Pandaria Heroic dungeons were too easy for many players, which was somewhat necessary due to not having Normal difficulty dungeons at Level 90. Warlords of Draenor fixes this by having both Normal and Heroic dungeons at Level 100.
Normal dungeons will likely be similar to the Mists of Pandaria Heroic dungeon difficulty, while Heroic will be more challenging.
Raid Finder will be balanced around players having gear from Normal difficulty dungeons.
Gear progression will likely use Normal difficulty dungeons to gear up for Raid Finder and Heroic difficulty dungeons to gear up for Normal difficulty raids.
The Challenge Mode daily quest in Warlords of Draenor will give you a piece of epic gear that is on par with or better than Raid Finder loot, even before Raid Finder and maybe even the raids are open. This is awarded to anyone who completes the dungeon, meaning that there is no time requirement.
Warlords of Draenor leveling will make use of some solo scenarios at the end of a zone, similar to what we saw on Isle of Thunder.

Raids
Highmaul is very non-linear, with a layout that is similar to Firelands (open outdoor area with some optional bosses before the two final bosses).
Blackrock Foundry has a layout that is similar to the second part of Icecrown Citadel, with three wings of three bosses each. You can do the wings in any order you want, gaining access to Blackhand after all three are complete.
Less linear structures work better for players and feel better, so that is what will be used going forward.
There isn't a separate raid tier for each Warlord, and we may even see two or three in the first raid tier.

World Bosses
Attempts at creating a hard World Boss haven't worked out very well.
Sha of Anger may have been the most successful world boss in Mists of Pandaria. It was accessible, felt epic, and you could see him while leveling.
Three different world bosses are planned for Patch 6.0. Initially one boss may be available, with Highmaul quality loot. Then a few weeks later, a second world boss could unlock that drops Foundry quality loot. Much later in the tier, a third world boss could unlock that drops some Heroic raid quality gear.
If a world boss gives rewards that are better than anything you could get if you aren't a high end raider (Ordos), it diminishes the importance of raid zones. If rewards aren't that good, players will start raiding and the world boss won't be relevant anymore.

Ion
Finally joining Twitter has been nice, as it gives Ion a direct channel of communication with players and a way to share information with players. He doesn't want to share much new information about the expansion there though, as he feels it should come through the official sites.
Ion was a practicing lawyer for several years, as well as a hardcore WoW player from Day 1. He got to know some of the devs through playing and offering feedback, applied to Blizzard, and now he is the Lead Encounter Designer.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

For the old AV fans:

Blizzard wrote:Man, lots of nostalgia thinking about oldschool AV. I spent a LOT of time in there during Classic. Spending hours pushing back and forth until finally we were able to overtake a bunker and just get that minor foothold, and then scrambling to defend it... good times.

It's a feeling we'd definitely like to bring back to the game in some way. We're not sure that today's AV is really the best place to do that though. When you queue for a random battleground, you generally expect that battle to last maybe 15-20 minutes or so. It wouldn't really feel great to see your queue pop, click to join, and then see the AV loading screen and know you could be in there for hours.

But like I said, we definitely want to see those huge battles in WoW again. Ashran (our new world PvP zone in Warlords) takes a ton of inspiration from those early Alterac Valley battles. It's designed to be an epic tug-of-war style battle, where you can either take direct part of the battle on the front lines, or work towards various other objectives that will support your faction in the main push. It's not a quick fight that's over in under an hour -- it's something that could take days before either side can claim a real victory, and you're rewarded for just participating even if you're not there for the final push.

We really want Ashran to hit that same chord that Alterac Valley did when it was first added, and we think we can pull it off. Can't wait for you guys to get your hands on it.

You could bring back the old AV by simply removing it from the random battleground queue and making a queue system solely for AV. Or you could keep the current fast version in the random BG queue, and bring back the old version as a "Classic Alterac Valley" queue that isn't part of the random BG. I don't honestly think it would be all that hard for you guys to implement, considering you must have the old Alterac Valley files still on hand at Blizz HQ.
That's something we've talked about. It's still a possibility, but it's not quite as easy to pull off as just restoring some old files. Remember, the game has changed a lot over the past 9 years. We'd rather spend that time working on something brand new.

by **Izzifix** Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:Im really unsure of these expansions blizz has been pulling out since wotlk ... i really REALLY liked wotlk, cataclysm was quite good tbh but mop has been meh so far and this new one isnt really exciting me tbh ...

You're weird, Shae. I really liked wotlk too, but hated cataclysm. Probably partly because I hated Uldum, and all the HCs seemed to be based on that shitty zone instead of Vashjir or Hyjal, which were fine zones. When MoP hit the stores I didn't get it for the longest time, despite leading an exploration based guild (not my best decision, in hindsight). When I finally got MoP and started running through it(Loremaster-style, I like zone-closure), it blew my mind. I'd really it if we got more like Pandaria.

by **Zinkle Figgins** Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:05 pm

Dwyburn wrote:
Shaelyssa wrote:Im really unsure of these expansions blizz has been pulling out since wotlk ... i really REALLY liked wotlk, cataclysm was quite good tbh but mop has been meh so far and this new one isnt really exciting me tbh ...

You're weird, Shae. I really liked wotlk too, but hated cataclysm. Probably partly because I hated Uldum, and all the HCs seemed to be based on that shitty zone instead of Vashjir or Hyjal, which were fine zones. When MoP hit the stores I didn't get it for the longest time, despite leading an exploration based guild (not my best decision, in hindsight). When I finally got MoP and started running through it(Loremaster-style, I like zone-closure), it blew my mind. I'd really it if we got more like Pandaria.

I agree, in terms of questing, exploration and background lore Mists of Pandaria is without doubts my favorite expansion. According to what Blizzard devs said, this is the path they're taking for WoD ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]).

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