Mary Sue for new roleplayers

Evening everyone, I know this is a topic picked up twice already from the search I did however I feel that this is something a few new people would need to know.



This man explains just what a Mary Sue is, he also explains quite well on how to not become a Mary Sue and how to avoid it. Since I'm not roleplaying right now I figured out to post something useful for once.

A Mary Sue is a character that is Perfect from Creation in my eyes, she / he is invisible and is never challenge by the obstacle in her / his way, making the character boring and just annoying.

Say that you are fighting a dragon along with a few friends, the others are hurt and takes life from the dragon slowly while when its your turn you refuse to take damage because you are who you are and kills the dragon instantly, that will make others rage and make the fight really short and boring.

Another thing is, if your character is flawless from birth, where is the challenge and character progression?
I personally feel that creating a flawed character and slowly making him / her become good is awesome and provides a lot of fun and something called character progression.

For example, imagine starting an RPG in highest level instantly, or having a kill button or "I win" button.. Whats the fun with that?
Remember that the fun isn't the destination, but the journey to the destination, the destination is only your reward for giving it your best to reach it.

Hope I explained it well, i might post this somewhere else. ((*Cough* "Argent Dawn" *Cough*))

I can't take any RP advise, especially on Mary Sues, from bronys, even if he brings up My Immortal.

This is My Immortal, its actually cringy and hilarious. Worth looking at.

Hope I explained it well, i might post this somewhere else. ((*Cough* "Argent Dawn" *Cough*))

Please don't, you're not being cute or funny. Defias Brotherhood has/is/will be chocked full of just as many "mary sue" characters as Argent Dawn, just on a different proportional scale.

I'm not sure what the point of this topic is exactly, are you trying to convey some sort of message to the community or did you just want to share the video?

Personally I think the term Mary Sue is more of a hindrance than a help when forming a character, especially where role-play characters are concerned. Every community has a different threshold for what they consider to be a mary sue, and there is no universal scale of which to define that by.

The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale"[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.[4] Such characters were generally original female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters. By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.[5]

"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue)

Gonna have to agree with Helmut here about the whole brony thing, I felt it kinda awkward he used an example from My Little Pony, but I suppose his explenation of the term is correct.

That being said, Mary Sue has a very different definition when being involved in roleplay, over writing.

Within roleplay you have to consider other roleplayers, the community, the plot the various elements that come with an exciting event that includes everyone, to reference his Superman example, yes from a comic book point of view Superman -isn't- a Mary Sue despite his superior strength and invulnerability, he still fights and has fought unimaginably powerful threats within his own personal arch, even with all his strength and power there's still been plenty of times where Superman has been in real danger of losing his life, sanity or general well-being.

On the other hand, if Superman was to exist on our server, his ridiculous powerset would no doubt be abused, be met with no challenge and inturn result in him showing up, solving the problem with his fists and leaving all other roleplayers involved left with a hallow ache for actual fun and group-friendly roleplay.

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that..
Mary Sue Roleplayer =/= Mary Sue within written fiction

Nevertheless, a good video.

Arenfel/Mikhael wrote:Personally I think the term Mary Sue is more of a hindrance than a help when forming a character, especially where role-play characters are concerned. Every community has a different threshold for what they consider to be a mary sue, and there is no universal scale of which to define that by.

I'm with Arenfel here. The Mary Sue paradigm encourages you to think about characterization in negative terms only; that, the more defects and faults a character has, the better it will be for it - I don't think that has to necessarily be the case; futhermore, it discourages you from thinking of your characters in positive terms, i.e you're stuck thinking 'What traits do I remove from or deny my character' instead of 'What traits do I give or add to my character'. This is examplified by those silly Mary Sue tests, that literally give you points the more scarred, flawed, or traumatized you make your character; it encourages brooding anti-heroes and discourages the brighter and naive characters naturally inclined towards doing the right thing. What you end up with are empty bundles of traumas and defects without any soul to them to tie them all together in cohesive wholes; semi-scientiifc amalgamations of tropes.

Ultimately, most important for a character is whether he or she is interesting to interact with; whether she or he is boring or engaging. To paraphrase a good friend on the subject: what matters is not so much a character's backstory, but the character's frontstory; everything about the character that is presented to me right now and is in front of me to see and interact with; including his or her looks, mannerisms and verbal ticks. Those directly visible aspects of a character are, in my opinion, a good place to start - rather than, for example, the details of his or her backstory that most players won't ever interact with anyway. Some characters that might be condemned by style of thinking that is propagated in this thread as 'Mary Sue' might be hugely interesting to interact with, because they look and sound unique and offer fun and engaging dialogue. I'll take interesting non-Sues over uninteresting and troubled Mary Sues with o-so-dark backstories any day of the week.

Then again, my favorite superhero is Superman, so what do I know?

You called?
https://i.imgur.com/BRoZpAP.png



Also, I'd not click that youtube video in a million years. I hate Bronys with a passion.

Thelos wrote: I'll take interesting non-Sues over uninteresting and troubled Mary Sues with o-so-dark backstories any day of the week.

I think you mixed things up Thelos.

I think my main issue with Mary Sues is just how stereotypical they can be and no harm to any human or blood elf roleplayers out there but there's always some young female mage.. priestess... or rogue all bright-eyed and bushy tailed, getting into trouble and having some INCREDIBLY powerful talent.. and it just feels like she's waltzed right off a terrible anime I never want to watch or be involved in.

She's usually accompanied by a tough scoundrel who only has eyes for her and defends her defiantly! kinda makes me vomit a little.

Krelk wrote:.. and it just feels like she's waltzed right off a terrible anime I never want to watch or be involved in.

This. I hate it when people RP like they are performing a battle from Naruto or some other shit. Also: I've run into people who RP worgen but are just in human form, BUT STILL HAVE THE EARS (and some even has a tail, even though worgens dont have tails). People need to stop treaying WoW like an anime multiverse where they can forefill their deepest wishes with their Original Charcter Do Not Steal.

Helmut wrote:

Krelk wrote:.. and it just feels like she's waltzed right off a terrible anime I never want to watch or be involved in.

This. I hate it when people RP like they are performing a battle from Naruto or some other shit. Also: I've run into people who RP worgen but are just in human form, BUT STILL HAVE THE EARS (and some even has a tail, even though worgens dont have tails). People need to stop treaying WoW like an anime multiverse where they can forefill their deepest wishes with their Original Charcter Do Not Steal.

Original Character like this guy?

Video:

Paia/Jenit wrote:

Helmut wrote:

Krelk wrote:.. and it just feels like she's waltzed right off a terrible anime I never want to watch or be involved in.

This. I hate it when people RP like they are performing a battle from Naruto or some other shit. Also: I've run into people who RP worgen but are just in human form, BUT STILL HAVE THE EARS (and some even has a tail, even though worgens dont have tails). People need to stop treaying WoW like an anime multiverse where they can forefill their deepest wishes with their Original Charcter Do Not Steal.

Original Character like this guy?

Video:

Yes, that one aswell as this and many more.

Spoiler:

I also follow this tumble blog, FUck Yeah Mary Sues

Thelos wrote:****/5

Ah, right. I forgot to add that she can do all naruto ninja skills. I knew I missed something.

Well, Helmut and Krelk explained quite well on what I hate about Mary Sue's, worst thing is that I get a feeling many including me have done this mistake but corrected it afterwards.

Coppersocket wrote:Also, I'd not click that youtube video in a million years. I hate Bronys with a passion.

We ain't that bad, we don't hate we only give love back to those who hates us.

Thorvald wrote:

Coppersocket wrote:Also, I'd not click that youtube video in a million years. I hate Bronys with a passion.

We ain't that bad, we don't hate we only give love back to those who hates us.

...

Did.. N..

I find that roleplaying a stereotype well is a rare skill and must be appreciated.

Making something unique out of something ordinary is always more challenging.

Thorvald wrote:We ain't that bad, we don't hate we only give love back to those who hates us.

Really? I think you should retract that statement. I really think you should.  

Amaryl wrote:

Thelos wrote: I'll take interesting non-Sues over uninteresting and troubled Mary Sues with o-so-dark backstories any day of the week.

I think you mixed things up Thelos.

In my defense, that was one hell of a confusing sentence.

...Wait, that doesn't excuse me in the slightest; that only makes it worse!

Curses!

I really don't care about Sues in the slightest, I like roleplaying with characters that make choices. I like roleplaying with characters that suffer the consequences of its actions, I like characters that dislike each-other. I like characters that rush in, and I like characters that prefer an analytical approach.

Any those characters can be sues or non-sues.

What i don't care about, is the childhood upbringing of your character. I care about my own, because that form him or her, but about yours I don't care, unless its important for the current interaction we're having.



The only thing that annoys me sometimes, is when Suddenly characters are experts in subjects they shouldn't be. knowing about things is fine. knowing about a lot of things is fine, but when the charge-first, swing first, dumb-ass soldier suddenly also has an intricate knowledge of the the bronze-dragon flight, without showing any aptitude before that, just because it so happens to be relevant for the story at the time, that's the only time Sue's make me go "mehhhhh"

Agreeing with Amaryl, it's good to define a character by it's strength and it's weaknesses! and fun roleplay isn't always been right or victorious and character progression isn't always positive or epic in scale, it can be small!

Mary Sue is just a meh term used by advocates of one type of RP to hate on another. Wulfy is that true, I read another verson which stated that mary sue was an annoying char in a really old story whom would constantly jump into conversation, know everything and have all the answers.

When I've seen the term used about others, it's mostly tightly related to "OP".

I really wish more people could realise that RP isn't a contest, but a co-narrated story. As there are no winners or losers, there is no OP. If it really becomes an issue, people need to get more creative: THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY OUT!

There is a clear "OP".
When one person always saves the day, is always the hero, and never gets hurt for more than an hour (and then everyone HAS to be "OMG YOU'RE HURT").
Then there is OP.

And yes, I've met people like that and RPed with them on defias.
I have also avoided them as much as I could each time after.

Haha, I always figured my Emrys started out as a bit of a Sue at first, very easy trap to fall into as she was my very first character. Although I think the term has a different meaning for everyone and for nearly every character, one can argue both ways. There once was a joke about Emrys having large breasts as an extra reason to anger her jealous older sister, she was a sweet nurse in a regiment, so plenty of male attention, but she was also kind of stupid, being able to fall head over heals for anyone that was nice to her. Having a very frail constitution and fainting during trainings when she started out her military career. I developed her a bit over time, bringing out her corruptable nature and love for mana but I have always had a lot of fun playing her and there was plenty of interraction. I just think it is difficult to determine what a Mary Sue truely is as there are so many people telling you a different story. Emrys has always remained a pretty thing to look at and had a kind, inviting nature but the character has never been rigid nor perfect in her way.

The character has her happy ever after now, so the book is closed for me and I just shrug my shoulders on the matter.